Refused

Moniq - How is Neutrality an advantage on Atys if it's not really neutrality? As it stands right now, Neutral has all of the disadvantages (and more) of alignment with nothing of note to really balance that. Are you simply understating the value of teleports so drastically that you're basically saying that thirty cents equals one Dollar/Euro? Seems to me (and MAAAAAAANY others) that being Neutral is an overall penalty.

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Revvy - First off, unless you are denying that the Kami and Karavan factions have even the slightest religious overtones, that RL religious example has a lot to do with things here. If you are willing to cease any and all support of using factions, especially those with all the trappings of a religion/philosophy, as a reason for conflict or segregation, then I'll stop. But so long as you make RL religion relevant by perpetually bringing up IG religion (including quasi-religions such as Ranger and Mara philosophies) as justification for bad behavior, I'll bring up the parallels and ask why you are so dead set against being more like RL (or Arispotle for that matter) by being a little more secular. Besides, I play Ryzom partly to get away from nationalism and religious intolerance but you keep dragging RL into the game, so consider it reciprocity.

Second, I never said anything about "without animosity". In fact, you must've missed the part where I mentioned that animosity remains. However, some folks can put their differences aside for a common goal while those looking for an excuse to fight cannot.

Third, if you feel that what I said there has nothing to do with the teleport system then let me try again. Simply put, if there were Neutral 250/PR TPs then a lot of folks would not be aligned anyways, so this whole mess would sort itself out as Neutral guilds pop up all over the place. Of course, you'd hate that because I know how much you love factions ;)

Fourth, it's not cheating to ask for a rules change. Those who seek to make PvP and one particular style of RP (to the exclusion of all others) mandatory do it all the time; are they also cheating? If not then you have a serious double standard going there, and if so then it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Lastly, you are right about me wanting a different game. I want a game where you don't get belittled for not having a strict fundamentalist interpretation of lore that does not allow Atys to ever really progress/evolve. Maybe something that is a bit more respectful of differences too. And I am far from alone there; I'm simply one of the few of that opinion that even comes to these forums any more and one of the even fewer who is willing to speak out. You really need to consider the possibility that maybe the old paradigms are no longer relevant and thus mechanics need alteration to accommodate the societal shift. If the old ways were the best ways then we'll have to demolish the Mara camp and their more-sensible-than-pacts TP system because those are modern developments. If not, then it's time to allow for the possibility that Atys has changed in other ways.

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Fyrosfreddy - I've seen enough fans try explaining a work of fiction to the authors that wrote it that I have doubts that anyone would agree with the "Because the author/dev said so" argument. In my experience, that argument only works when it's convenient. Of course, games are different in that they are more dynamic than novels or movies because the characters in a game are not all controlled by the author(s), so there is a higher likelihood of them saying something different tomorrow than there is for a book/show/movie. In fact, it's pretty much a requirement for games to take character actions and player feedback into account.

What you mean by "not really neutrality"?

Ok, if neutrals have so many disadvantages and factions have so many advantages (means mainly TP into high level zones obviously, thats like a magic mantra here), why didn't you join a shiny super overpowered faction?

You forgot who you're talking to, Moniq. Or have our previous arguments totally slipped your mind?

You know perfectly well that I'm in a faction; as badly as you may want them to, factions don't have a purity test that excludes those who don't fanatically worship one particular narrow interpretation of lore. And as much as you have historically denied whether I belong there because we interpret lore differently, it's one that actually matches my ideals.

That said, you've made it abundantly clear that you feel I don't belong in that faction, just as those like Revvy have made it known for over 6 years that those like me don't belong on Atys. So if you ever wonder why I hold some of the views I hold and speak out the way I do, reread the previous sentence and ask yourself how long you can be told you don't belong before it geta to you.

You still haven't told me any advantages of Neutrality though. The only one I can see is that fresh-from-Silan players can join a guild without grinding fame, and I don't consider that a big enough advantage to be balanced.

No I don't, I only know your guild. And faction was never important to me. So, are you neutral or do you have any allegiance? If not, why don't you join any then?

Ok, if you are unable to see any, I will tell you some:
- Neutrality itself is the main advantage, you can stay out of faction conflicts
- You also do not need to work on fame
- You can work on your fame and have it balanced
- You can become a friend with all factions and civilization
- You do not have to do any rite
- You can become a Ranger (with a rite) to have access to high level zones (which is obviously sort of magic mantra here...)

I am sorry, I can't help myself, but you look like someone who wants advantages of factions while you keep your neutral status with its advantages (thay you even do not realize).

Again, if to be neutral do not fits you, you can go for faction that does. What is the problem?

And my question remains: What you mean by "not really neutrality"?

I honestly don’t see anything in those links that proves higher powers invented resurrection... the claims that two marauders learn how to resurrect could easily be exaggeration and legend, and again doesn’t explain how/where it came from. The current explanation of the source of marauder tp/spawn is their work with karavan defectors on the remains of the rainbow bridges. So their system may actually be an tryton based teleportation, while Kara and kami could very well be killing your original body when you tp and redirecting your data through the roots of atys to a natural or artificial spawn site. Again that was my hypothesis based on the fact that everything on atys respawns.

Moniq - Have you forgotten our disagreements in the Ranger channel over defensive PvP versus utter pacifism, and how I argued that sometimes there is no choice but to take up arms? Or are you claiming that us Rangers are not actually a faction?On second thought, it may be best we don't consider Rangers a faction; if the hardcore folks want to change things to get Rangers out of their current guilds for factional purity then expect A LOT of backlash.

Also, you just admitted that you believe thirty cents equals a dollar by claiming that a bunch of tiny advantages balance a huge disadvantage. Three of the alleged advantages are ones that you and I enjoy despite not being Neutral while one of the remainders is that you can become someone who retains those advantages.

I didn't stated high powers invented (Jena, Maduk, <insert>) the resurrection.
It is most probably a technology from the earth itself (from Atys pre-terraformation era).
As for Marauder teleportation system, a dissident branch of the Karavan (Hominist side) provide it.

I like this idea, it remind me of the greek myth Gaïa or the version commonly modernized in FFVII (and movies) :)

No I simply do not remember the information, sorry. And I claim that Rangers is screwed faction, if you ask.


It was you who evaluated neutrals to be 30% of other factons. If you ask about Ranger faction, it is, by me, 130% compared to K/K. In your strange talk, 1 dollar 30 cents equal to 1 dollar.

If you are a Ranger, you already have access to high level zones and many other benefits, like bunch of respawn points more. Or almost free and safe traveling. Safe zone on each node. Not talking about "mysterous" movement of pathways closer to cities (paradox is that position in the Desert is, by me, even worse now). So yes, if I was Kami or Kara I would complain a lot how unbalanced it is.

What you mean by "not really neutrality"?
What "huge disadvantage" you talk about?

This is my last reply, because, you ignore what I was originally asking. You try to fight for your ideas but you are not giving me any solid arguments. Not talking about that matter of neutrality is disadvantage or just a little advantage for you. Well, in fact I think you are convinced about your truth and you tend to look for information that supports your view and bend or ignore any other logic that is in conflict with it. Sorry, but the way how you (not) present arguments is not working on me.

I say, if you are not happy with your allegiance, go and join other faction that fits you better.

btw: All Ryzom teams do recruit new members in case you really want to do something more than fill the forum.

Your completely misinterpreting what I wrote and what I wrote supported your position. Arguing against it, weakens that position. .... Simply put, the Lore that exists is there because someone wrote it 15+ years ago. How the game is actually played differs widely from the original expectation. The argument that the 15 year old lore is carved in stone and can not be modified is a fundamentalist thought that rejects the history of human existence. The creators of Ryzom's "pre-history" are entirely empowered to rewrite that history.

To port over to real life ... the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe was universally accepted as "doctrine", religious or otherwise. Arguing with that was blasphemy. Then it wasn't, a round earth and a sun centric solar system became the "new truth" .... and now we have Flat Earth beliefs making a comeback, So no.... no truth is static, no lore is static. Even Game of Thrones has tossed "ancient lore" out the window over and over again.

So no... the truth is not static... IRL, accepted "truths" are debunked every day. The second largest religion in the US is "none" (Evangelical Protestant = 25.4% / Unaffiliated = 22.8% / Catholic = 20.8%). This is a substantial change. Was a time when women couldn't vote, certain people could not own property ... acceptable behavior between men and women has changed drastically.

So yes, the "truth " and "way it is" on Atys is constrained only by the folks who make the rules. Granted, it's always best that you follow a logical progression from one state to another ... but there's plenty of leeway there to go in any direction which inclusively works for the greatest number of people. If a % of the player base wants nothing to do with religions, and it's going to be forced on them because "the lore says so" ... simple fix the lore.

Source? For all we know, it could be Goo-infused Kami.

Moniq - You have never considered any argument against your fanatically restrictive interpretation of lore "solid" in the past anyways, so I am not surprised that you are unwilling to accept that those who are impartial do not discriminate in a partisan manner; that the unbiased have no biases. Keep on saying neutral is neither impartial nor unbiased no matter how many dictionaries define it as such. But that will not change the simple truth that when Neutral is not neutral, then neutrality is not really neutrality.

As for Rangers being 130% of K/K, you ignore that the advantage of being able to be in a guild that would likely have been Neutral or Ranger had that been a possibility years ago is not nearly as big an advantage of being able to get to a 250/PR zone without a detour and a run to a specific spot the way we have to now. I would normally allow for the possibility that you have far different priorities than I do, but unlike you, I do not consider forced segregation to be a good thing.

Lastly, if Ranger is a screwed faction and (what passes for) neutral is so awesome, then when are you turning in your map and trekking to all the 250/PR areas? Besides, you refute that the truth is our only faith by clinging to falsehoods, and your desire for segregation goes against "Synergy, sharing and solidarity are our social rules" and "Unity is our strength", so you're halfway out of Rangerhood already.

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Fyrosfreddy - I did not mean to argue against what you said, merely express skepticism that your words would matter to those who refuse to change their thinking no matter how many facts or how much logic is used. To them, the Lore that was written 15 + years ago is inviolable and immutable, and nothing you or I say will change that... though it may get them to try burning us for heresy. And the fact that the game is actually played vastly differently from "the original expectation" seems to be a real issue for some folks.

When you say, "The argument that the 15 year old lore is carved in stone and can not be modified is a fundamentalist thought that rejects the history of human existence.", you are pretty much restating my position. That is what I've been trying to get across to those who refuse to allow Atys to progress/evolve.

As for your last line, that is why my sig block is what it is. When you say "a % of the player base", are you including all players or simply those who come to these forums? Because I know a lot of long-time players who wouldn't touch this place with a ten foot pole. I consider their opinions just as valid as those who do come here, but I doubt they are ever taken into consideration. Some say they are the majority, but if you have 10 folks vote one way, 7 vote the other, and 20 who don't even know the vote is taking place, are those 10 really the majority?

;)

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Unfortunatly the Lore about Marauders (nomads tribe) is not yet entirely published (and i doubt it will be released, im not even sure Lorist know what to do with this faction anyway..)

You can read the biography of Melkiar to know more about the teleportation system, but you will still be hungry afterward :P

@Gidget

I already said all and your latest reply is as expected. You put words in my mouth, keep skipping between topics while you did not answer me yet. Thus I still don't know, what you actually fight for...

This failed.

Honestly, I'd like to see it. But it does make think that if they don't know what to do with the faction anyway, they may want to watch how the players play and see if their observations lead to inspirations.



Your latest reply is as expected too; I expected you to be a bit rude, a bit confused, and try to make me out to be an idiot simply because you are unwilling to accept the answer I gave to the question you asked.