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Refused


Is that a good idea? / Ist das eine gute Idee? / C'est une bonne idée ?
Yes (Write what could develop positively) / Ja (Schreib, was sich positiv entwickeln könnte) / Oui (Écrivez ce qui pourrait évoluer positivement)
Atys: Gidget, Jahuu, Kaetemi, Luminatrix
4
18.2%
No (write what would be wrong with it) / Nein (Schreib, was falsch daran wäre) / Non (écrivez ce qui ne va pas avec)
Atys: Aleeskandaro, Azazor, Craftjenn, Dukenono, Hayt, Lacuna, Mermaidia, Naveruss, Revvy, Sinvaders, Sowen, Syron, Timna, Zagh
14 (4)
63.6%
Other thoughts (write it down) / Andere Gedanken (Schreib es auf) / Autres pensées (écrivez-les)
Atys: Agy, Balkhog, Heernis, Placio
4
18.2%
Other 0
Abstain 8
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#16 [de] 

Allowing players to do whatever they want ... is not a way for designing a game.

+1 to Azazor
+1 to Zagh

There is less and less players who cares about the game background nowadays and this population is constantly decreasing. Hopefully for some players, soon enough the game will be empty of roleplay and they will be able to play their sandbox where the only challenge will be killing "gift" at RP event (you know atysmas, anlorwynn etc ... (for those who don't understand ... I'm making a joke here).

#17 [en] 

Your disagreement comes down to a fundamental difference in the purpose of a guild.

For the sandbox player, a guild is just "a chat channel with a common vault for storage". Whatever value is there in a guild, it arises from the quality of the human relationships built. They would naturally accept different faction alignments in the same guild.

For the roleplayer, a guild is a means to enforce a coherent world, stemming from the lore. Therefore, a guild is an in-game organisation, that follows certain restrictions willingly. These restrictions flow from the guild to the individual members, not as "artificial restrictions" (as Heernis puts it), but as accepted limitations that align with that character's RP!

Of course, these views are NOT compatible.

And of course, this is a GAME DESIGN choice, that shouldn't be open to amending following forum votes. We can examine the effects of the current system versus a potentially new one, but there is no point talking unless we acknowledge why there is a difference in the first place.

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Laoviel, officer of Rift Walkers

#18 [en] 

Here we go again with the good old "this is not real life". Let me tell you something. While you are technically correct, there is a human being pulling the strings of every homin. And if my years of playing Dungeons and Dragons and other RPGs have taught me anything, it's that people often give their characters some elements of their personality. This is no different.

I actually like the game's lore. And I wouldn't have gone marauder (I could have stayed neutral and still joined my guild) if their attitude of not caring for race, just strength, didn't appeal to me. The faction strongly reminds me of how historically, some pirates had more progressive rights and even things like insurance way before "civilized society". I was Kami for a long time because the faction appealed to me as well - the whole "protect the planet" thing. Until it was irreversibly poisoned for me by certain players and I left the faction, as well as the game for several years.

I can't speak for all of us non-RP players. But I'm not trying to take your lore away. I'm not trying to take your PvP away, either, despite what some people like to make it look like. If you enjoy it, great! Good for you! I don't think any less of you because of it. All I ask in return is that you extend the same understanding and tolerance to me, but you refuse to. All I hear from certain people is "your fun is wrong" and I'm constantly met with mockery and condescension. Again, just because I dare ask for a way to opt out of certain aspects of the game.

The truth is, I don't know what Ryzom was originally advertised as, or what it was like at launch. I wasn't around for that. But I know what the game is like now. As I keep saying, there are people on Atys with vastly different playstyles. Except some of us are willing to tolerate the others and some less so.

I keep hearing about how this "carebear" style of play is "killing the game". How about you people think about how many potential players you have driven off over the years with your attitude for once? I can guarantee it's quite a number. At least a dozen of my own friends don't play anymore because of how nasty the community can be and that makes me sad. There are very few homins on Atys. We should be trying to make our time in the game enjoyable for each other, not ruin it. I'm willing to do that for you. But you're not willing to do the same for me and that's the crux of this whole problem.

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Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#19 [en] 

Sinvaders
Allowing players to do whatever they want ... is not a way for designing a game.
Neither is having one group of players tell everyone else, "If you do not play the way I play then you are not welcome/allowed here!", especially not when that group of players is so offensive that they drive players from the game in droves. And if you find tolerance offensive enough that you would uninstall a game over being told you cannot control other humans, then that's on you.
Laoviel
Your disagreement comes down to a fundamental difference in the purpose of a guild.

For the sandbox player, a guild is just "a chat channel with a common vault for storage". Whatever value is there in a guild, it arises from the quality of the human relationships built. They would naturally accept different faction alignments in the same guild.

For the roleplayer, a guild is a means to enforce a coherent world, stemming from the lore. Therefore, a guild is an in-game organisation, that follows certain restrictions willingly. These restrictions flow from the guild to the individual members, not as "artificial restrictions" (as Heernis puts it), but as accepted limitations that align with that character's RP!

Of course, these views are NOT compatible.

And of course, this is a GAME DESIGN choice, that shouldn't be open to amending following forum votes. We can examine the effects of the current system versus a potentially new one, but there is no point talking unless we acknowledge why there is a difference in the first place.

My take is that membership restrictions in guilds should be determined by those who run the guild (GLs and HOs). To do otherwise is to incentivize each player having their own guild and just having players who are friendly to each other share a dynamic chat channel and trade mats from their private storage "Guild" hall instead of having actual guilds.

Then again, current guilds are actually groups of like-minded individuals anyways. Having irreconcilably different views on inclusiveness is one way to make people leave guilds. In that regard, I see it as a self-solving problem; we already have folks staying with or leaving guilds due to disagreements with guild leadership that I see allowing GLs/HOs to determine who is allowed into the guild as a non-issue.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Gidget (6 months ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#20 [en] 

Luminatrix
Here we go again with the good old "this is not real life". Let me tell you something. While you are technically correct, there is a human being pulling the strings of every homin. And if my years of playing Dungeons and Dragons and other RPGs have taught me anything, it's that people often give their characters some elements of their personality. This is no different.
You would think that those who are into deep-immersion "You are your character" RP would understand that, and comprehend why some players may take attacks upon their IG behavior personally. Well, unless they treat Ryzom as "just a game" when it's convenient to do so and not when it's inconvenient out of a desire to have their cake and eat it too.
Luminatrix
I actually like the game's lore. And I wouldn't have gone marauder (I could have stayed neutral and still joined my guild) if their attitude of not caring for race, just strength, didn't appeal to me. The faction strongly reminds me of how historically, some pirates had more progressive rights and even things like insurance way before "civilized society". I was Kami for a long time because the faction appealed to me as well - the whole "protect the planet" thing. Until it was irreversibly poisoned for me by certain players and I left the faction, as well as the game for several years.
Similar to why I am a Ranger. I am not a worshiper of flags or higher powers, so no nation or religion appeals to me; that narrows it down to Ranger, Marauder, or Trytonist. I am not a "might makes right" person; I had enough of that in other games to grow weary of it in my old age. That leaves out Marauders, and my lack of enmity towards religion eliminates Trytonist. I was only ever (officially) Karavan to use the same TPs as the guild who was so kind and generous to me in my early days. However, once the game mechanics allowed me the freedom to do so and still get around Atys as easily as the other factions could, I went Ranger... and my guild leadership accepted and respected my decision, so I remained in my guild.
I know that the hardcore RPers would tell me I should've RP'd a Ranger all along ans suffered the consequences (no 250/PR TPs, leave my guild, etcetera) but by doing so, they would forfeit any and all right to claim their rights are being infringed upon by allowing others a bit of equality.
Luminatrix
I can't speak for all of us non-RP players. But I'm not trying to take your lore away. I'm not trying to take your PvP away, either, despite what some people like to make it look like. If you enjoy it, great! Good for you! I don't think any less of you because of it. All I ask in return is that you extend the same understanding and tolerance to me, but you refuse to. All I hear from certain people is "your fun is wrong" and I'm constantly met with mockery and condescension. Again, just because I dare ask for a way to opt out of certain aspects of the game.
You forgot the part where they claim oppression because we have the audacity to ask to no longer be treated the way they say we treat them by not being their slaves.
Luminatrix
The truth is, I don't know what Ryzom was originally advertised as, or what it was like at launch. I wasn't around for that. But I know what the game is like now. As I keep saying, there are people on Atys with vastly different playstyles. Except some of us are willing to tolerate the others and some less so.
One of the servers was not like the other two. Atys is a lot like the other two were.
Luminatrix
I keep hearing about how this "carebear" style of play is "killing the game". How about you people think about how many potential players you have driven off over the years with your attitude for once? I can guarantee it's quite a number. At least a dozen of my own friends don't play anymore because of how nasty the community can be and that makes me sad. There are very few homins on Atys. We should be trying to make our time in the game enjoyable for each other, not ruin it. I'm willing to do that for you. But you're not willing to do the same for me and that's the crux of this whole problem.
Exactly! But I have my doubts as to whether that truth will be acknowledged; it has been ignored/refuted for so many years already that I have little hope for change.

Last edited by Gidget (6 months ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#21 [en] 

Azazor
Pour résumer, il y a ceux qui s'en foutent de la lore et pensent jouer à un MMO, et ceux pour qui la lore est importante et pensent jouer à un MMORPG.
On peut toujours se voiler la face, mais les deux sont incompatibles. Car tout ce qui contrevient à la lore va gêner les RPistes, tout ce qui est lore va gêner les non RP.

Une solution? Deux serveurs, un RP, un autre WTFYW
Le problème? On n'a pas assez de sous pour faire deux serveurs, ni assez de bénévoles. Donc on va continuer de se tirer la bourre jusqu'à ce que l'un ou l'autre des camps en ait marre et se barre. Pour l'instant, c'est plutôt les RPiste qui se cassent. Hélas...

Autre solution? Que les proprios du jeu et tous les bénévoles et salariés (bref, ceux qui font vivre le jeu) assument et disent enfin une bonne fois pour toute ce qu'est ryzom: un MMO ou un MMORPG?

Lore does not hinder non-RP in the slightest. In fact, many of us are more "light RP" than non-RP. Any hatred you perceive is simply pushback from years of being told we're doing it wrong. I'm sure you would feel the same if you were treated the way we've been treated for years.

I have suggested maybe having a separate Roleplay channel so that those of us who are not pure-RP can still use Around, but was told that that was too divisive. As for your other idea, regardless of which side the devs take, server population would plummet. The only feasible solution is for the RP crowd to learn tolerance, put their supremacist views aside for the sake of the game, and cease their blatant attempts to force their playstyle down our throats.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#22 [en] 

Gidget
Sinvaders
Allowing players to do whatever they want ... is not a way for designing a game.
Neither is having one group of players tell everyone else, "If you do not play the way I play then you are not welcome/allowed here!", especially not when that group of players is so offensive that they drive players from the game in droves. And if you find tolerance offensive enough that you would uninstall a game over being told you cannot control other humans, then that's on you.

I don't see what your sentence as to do with mine. I'm talking about game design in this one not about players behavior nor player being RP or non-RP.
You basically need gameplay restriction to orientate players, to give them a general direction about how "this thing" should be played.
But I believe, you will prefer to ask people to uninstall the game rather than ... well you know.

And to answer another part of your message: I do know many players (and more than you might think) who left the game because RP is dead as well as the game backgrounds being "meh" (to stay polite).

#23 [en] 

And again the same speech:
-Rper are tyrannical because there saying that Ryzom is a MMORP,
-There need to learn tolerance because there disagree to make Ryzom a tasteless WoW like,

Seriously… make a guild with various faction? A marauder that is disappointed about nation and religion… with a Kami that believe into Ma-Duk and protect Atys… with a Karavan who believe into Ma-Duk foe and want to exploit Atys?

Of course, you can make your own choice, I’ve already seen tryker citizen be friend with a kami zoraï, a zoraï become a karavan believer and stay friend with another kami zoraï… but there a difference between being friend and being in the same guild with the same purpose!

If you don’t want to choose a faction and being friend with everybody, just stay neuter or join the rangers! But whatever your choice, Atys stay a merciless world with religious and political war, Kitin invasion and goo infection. And if you don’t want to play with that, maybe you have nothing to do here?

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Naveruss (6 months ago)

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#24 Multilingual 

Multilingual | Deutsch | [English] | Français
I think I put my foot in it with the idea.

I really had no idea that the artificial "invitation prevention" was so important in role-playing.

Well well. In order to express my modest opinion, I will make a few remarks here and there.

On the one hand I see in the current state that roleplaying, as it was played in the early days, is dying out. Then there are new players who haven't been there and haven't been instructed. I can count myself among them. In this case it's a failure of the veteran role players.

On the other hand, there are also the players, who are rather assigned to the category "simple role play" (all players are more or less role players in their own way).

It is true that Ryzom is an Open World game. But it is subject to the restrictions of lore and history. If you change something in the game design, then it must correspond to the lore. I agree with that.

A lot has changed in 10 years. Now there are players who interpret the lore more individualistically. Take out parts that fit his own role-playing game. And things like: "The hatred for the Matis because of the enslavement at that time" behind itself leave. That was once, but I'm not part of that generation and have nothing to do with it. In other words: "How many generations must a Matis ask forgiveness from Jena for his shameful act of enslaving the Trykers? I think it was that generation, not ours, that did this. Even a cult of remembrance would not be a solution, since it is stagnating.

What I'm trying to say is, the Lore limits the game. Good. But the lore doesn't develop any further at the moment (it seems to me), but the homins do. Then we have a discrepancy. I'd say that's the root of the problem here.

In a way, I see here a discord between traditionalists and revisionists.

In order to abolish the "invitation prevention", the Lore must first be further developed and in the course of this, adapted to the developments of the Homins. Without it it really won't work and would violate the fundamental game design.

So in order to really want to change something in that direction, since it is so intended by the game principle, the lore that limits the game must be creatively expanded.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

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#25 [en] 

@Heernis - I am in total agreement with you, and a bit disheartened that so many here still refuse to see the difference between "I don't, but you can" and "I do, so you MUST!", and who treat the latter as "Do whatever you want!".

Edited 12 times | Last edited by Gidget (6 months ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#26 [en] 

I think it is important to realize that the proposal was to remove mechanics that have always existed ingame- simply because people disagree for RP reason does not mean that they are creating new RP rules for everyone to follow.

I hope we can keep this from devolving into tit-for-tat posts as the idea is not very serious- Even the player that proposed it did not vote "Yes" in his own survey...

#27 Multilingual 

Multilingual | Deutsch | [English] | Français
Placio
I think it is important to realize that the proposal was to remove mechanics that have always existed ingame- simply because people disagree for RP reason does not mean that they are creating new RP rules for everyone to follow.

I hope we can keep this from devolving into tit-for-tat posts as the idea is not very serious- Even the player that proposed it did not vote "Yes" in his own survey...


I don't find it very amusing to question my seriousness in this matter on the basis of the survey. I voted neither "yes" nor "no". Why? It's the simple reason because I could imagine different things.

First of all, I wanted to see what the loyal player base said about it without annoying anyone. It's an idea.

Secondly. There were good arguments against what the lore and history that limit the game mechanics is without a doubt. I didn't consider that. If this can still be confirmed from official sources, the idea will not be accepted anyway.

For me it means that we have to work on the lore now and the story should be expanded. So that the gap between die-hard and simple role-players can be bridged. This has now shown me.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

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#28 [fr] 

On a la chance d'avoir un jeu avec une lore riche, un environnement magnifique, et certains veulent n'en faire qu'un jeu de pexeur sans lien avec la lore? C'est quoi ce jeu, candy crush? Y'a des tas de jeu en HTML5 pour faire lvl up son perso sans s'embarrasser de l'histoire, de la lore, du rp. Ce serait (c'est) un gâchis sans nom que de casser ça.

Mais bon, continuez les anti rp, continuez, et peu à peu, ceux qui font avancer le jeu vont partir. Parce que bon, on va pas se leurrer hein, c'est pas les anti rp qui font avancer le jeu. C'est tous les bénévoles derrières qui restent et tentent encore de faire des event parce qu'ils croient toujours que le RP n'est pas mort, c'est les dév qui s'essaient à des choses en lien (plus ou moins) avec la lore. Le jour où ils craqueront, le jeu sera fini. Et vous aurez gagné, un jeu vide, creux, sans saveur. Vous serez content alors, à monter vos lvl, à chasser les cadeaux et les oeufs, et jouer à la roue. Ouep, c'est sûr que c'est le genre de jeu qui attire du monde.... (ironie)

Alors que si on arrête de favoriser tous ces anti rp, qu'on arrête de faire des trucs contraire à la lore, on va certes faire fuir une certaines catégories de personnes, mais avec la richesse de la lore qu'on a, on va pouvoir attirer tous les RPistes, tous ceux qui se sont barrés parce que le rp était mort.

A vous de voir quel jeu vous voulez. Mais une chose est sûr, il va falloir choisir. Parce que la patience des rpistes va finir par être réduite à peau de chagrin. Alors posez vous bien la question: qui voulez vous favoriser?

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fyros pure sève
akash i orak, talen i rechten!
élucubrations
biographie

#29 Multilingual 

Multilingual | Deutsch | [English] | Français
Azazor
On a la chance d'avoir un jeu avec une lore riche, un environnement magnifique, et certains veulent n'en faire qu'un jeu de pexeur sans lien avec la lore? C'est quoi ce jeu, candy crush? Y'a des tas de jeu en HTML5 pour faire lvl up son perso sans s'embarrasser de l'histoire, de la lore, du rp. Ce serait (c'est) un gâchis sans nom que de casser ça.

Mais bon, continuez les anti rp, continuez, et peu à peu, ceux qui font avancer le jeu vont partir. Parce que bon, on va pas se leurrer hein, c'est pas les anti rp qui font avancer le jeu. C'est tous les bénévoles derrières qui restent et tentent encore de faire des event parce qu'ils croient toujours que le RP n'est pas mort, c'est les dév qui s'essaient à des choses en lien (plus ou moins) avec la lore. Le jour où ils craqueront, le jeu sera fini. Et vous aurez gagné, un jeu vide, creux, sans saveur. Vous serez content alors, à monter vos lvl, à chasser les cadeaux et les oeufs, et jouer à la roue. Ouep, c'est sûr que c'est le genre de jeu qui attire du monde.... (ironie)

Alors que si on arrête de favoriser tous ces anti rp, qu'on arrête de faire des trucs contraire à la lore, on va certes faire fuir une certaines catégories de personnes, mais avec la richesse de la lore qu'on a, on va pouvoir attirer tous les RPistes, tous ceux qui se sont barrés parce que le rp était mort.

A vous de voir quel jeu vous voulez. Mais une chose est sûr, il va falloir choisir. Parce que la patience des rpistes va finir par être réduite à peau de chagrin. Alors posez vous bien la question: qui voulez vous favoriser?


I think we misunderstood each other. I won't allow myself to be accused or the rumor to be "anti-RP" to make Ryzom a Candy Crush. That's not my intention.

Collecting eggs for Christmas is nice, but would never bind me to Ryzom.

As far as the "rich traditions" that you like to emphasize are concerned, I can only find them in corners and niches from my perspective. That would be, for example, a problem that should be tackled.

The traditions I know are very vague and need interpretation. So players with a different understanding, with a different philosophy of life in the RL, suddenly take a different view. And that really has nothing to do with RP and Anti-RP.

I'll take a real-life example of religions like Kami or Karavan. Because when you really do RP, you feel more like you belong to a faction where you see similarities in real life.

For example, the world-famous book called Bible. It's also a rich tradition. Everyone who is fascinated by it wants to preserve it. Here I see a parallel. At that time, a part of the Bible called the Torah was given to the Israelites to preserve and follow. Then at some point a rabbi called Yeshua (Jesus) came. Many others came before him, but he managed to reform the Torah.

What I'm trying to say, and it's really not meant evil, just a little more directly.

If the die-hard role-players continue to blindly follow old traditions, they might miss the train for the new traditions that are developing in parallel. They don't even have to be officially accepted by the Lore team. Just as today's Jews do not accept the traditions of Christians.

The point is not to favour someone, but to observe the development of factions and nations. There is the official, but also the unofficial role play.

If one is not careful not to lead the Homins, sectarianism will gain the upper hand. Who wants that? Nobody. But it's a process that's going on. This is supposed to be a warning for the future, not a threat.

The restriction on guilds is in principle only an artificial one to promote rivalries. Any artificial restriction will be broken at some point. It is the nature of man. Life, even on Atys, takes its course.


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

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#30 [en] 

Heernis
Collecting eggs for Christmas is nice, but would never bind me to Ryzom.

No collecting eggs for Christmas is NOT nice at all. It's just opening the door for abuse nothing else (and if you don't know what I mean ... just wait a bit for the next time they will be available and you will see professional eggs spammer again).


You should not try to compare real life and the in-game life they are 2 differents things (don't forget one is a game).
Heernis
If the die-hard role-players continue to blindly follow old traditions, they might miss the train for the new traditions that are developing in parallel.

There is NO new traditions developed in parralel.
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