Adjustments following players population - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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#22 Añadido por Heernis 6 años hace [de]

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Sinvaders

@Heemis The issue with money (dappers) in Ryzom is that they are mainly use for:
- buying TP (and nobody knows why kamis or karavan would need this useless resource);
- buying new crafting tools;
- buying cheap cosmetics;
- outpost;
- buy marauders armor plans;

Which means that they are not used by players for interactions ( or they can but what you will do with this pointless resource as you can get bunch of them more than easily ), it's not valuable and unless someone has a plan to create an economy in the game, we do not include dappers in the current discussion.
Here we are talking about the fact that the available resources are not designed for the amount of players we are.

Okay ich verstehe den Hauptantrieb des Eintrags:
Die Anpassung der Spielmechanik an die geringe Ryzom-Spielerschaft, damit man Materialien etc. nicht anhäuft.

Um es auf einen cleveren Weg zu machen, sollte sich das System an die Spieleranzahl automatisch anpassen. Dazu gehören auch auch die Dappers. Natürlich sollten dann, wenn nötig, die Materialien ein Haltbarkeitsdatum haben, bis wann sie verarbeitet werden können. Das heißt dann zum Beispiel, dass die Materialien nicht ewig angehäuft werden können und auch an Wert verlieren.

Es kann sein, dass ich weitsichtiger blicke, als von dem Eintragsbeginner angegeben, aber ein System, das sich nicht selbst reguliert, durch Angebot und Nachfrage, und immer wieder nachjustiert werden muss ist faktisch dem Tode geweiht. Ich frage mich überhaupt, warum man die Shops immer noch da lässt? Sie sind nutzlos.

Zusammenfassung:

1. Materialien an Vorkommen und Markt automatisch anpassen. Dh. wenn viele Materialien im Umlauf sind, kann auch entsprechend weniger gebuddelt werden oder auch weniger Bosse.
2. Den Wert der Materialien an Dappers und den Umlauf automatisch anpassen lassen.
3. Dappers im Spiel limitieren.

Und ja es geht um das System an sich, nicht nur um ein bisschen "Nachjustieren". Leider muss ich sagen, dass das Wirtschaftssystem in Ryzom einfach für die Tonne ist; anders kann ich es nicht beschreiben.

Also eigentlich muss mehr gemacht werden, als nur ein bisschen hier und ein bisschen da. Das Wirtschaftssystem sollte von Grund erneuert werden, dazu gehören auch die Materialvorkommen etc.

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#23 Añadido por Heernis 6 años hace [de]

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Jahuu

Heernis
There has to be a balance between material and money. Like a capitalist economy. At the moment it seems more like socialism to me. You need to know people who can build something or have equipment, or join a guild.

Hmm, think I like this aspect tho, it brings players closer to each other. I mean, naturally I'm trying to make everything to work by myself, "no matter the price". However, to get something I dont have craft levels in, or to get down real nasty boss, I need help. That help means, I end up talking to people and end up liking and staying in more. If I could do everything myself, I would def talk less and probably be logged in less.

Like Sin says, dappers are not really good for trading between players. Real currency seems to be grindy mats (stack of basic/fine q250 dig mats) and desirable exe/sup mats.

Ja, dass ist ein Aspekt. Wenn sich das Wirtschaftssystem selbst reguliert. Wenn die Preise teuer sind, frag ich andere um Hilfe und man geht auch mal zusammen buddeln oder jagen, alles kein Problem. Wenn wenn aber mehr vorhanden ist, wird weniger gebuddelt, wenn genug Geld da ist.

Ich mag auch den Gedanken, mehr mit anderen vernetzt zu sein und zusammen zu spielen. Versteht mich da nicht falsch. Man soll nicht alles allein schaffen können.

Dass Dappers keine Rolle spielen, sollte sich aber ändern. Das ist zumindest meine Meinung dazu. Es macht dann wirklich keinen Sinn Dappers zu verdienen, wenn sie bald sowieso nicht gebraucht werden, weil sowieso genug da ist. Weniger Dappers > wertvoller.

Jahuu

Heernis
Markets are not filled and it's not worth selling good equipment for lower levels for higher levels. That needs to change.

This is result of the 7 day timer, means you gotta retrieve gear/mats back, relog an sell again before the timer runs out or they are destroyed. Many have tried to keep merchants equiped, with very nice gear too, but it's very ofputting once you miss the deadline and see that all the gear are just gone.

Vielleicht könnten feste Preise (orientiert an Umlauf, Wert, Vorkommen), und ein höheres Limit der Zeit oder kein Zeitlimit eine Lösung sein? Um vor allem auch zu vermeiden, dass die Shops als Platzhalter dienen. Nach dem Prinzip: Mach die Preise auf Maximum und du kannst die Materialien für 7 Tage lagern, weil es keiner kauft.

Última edición por Heernis (6 años hace)

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#24 Añadido por Fyrosfreddy 6 años hace [en]

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The thing is, as with most topics, request for change most often comes from a place of "the way I choose to play the game, this isn't working out as well as I'd like". And while they most often make perfect sense, from that person's PoV, such a change usually severely compromises the way other people play.

There are folks IG who basically all they do is chase sups and / or bosses. So whatever scheme is implemented that would be most appropriate for those folks, would be less advantageous for those folks like have posted above. I have **seen** Kiro boss 3 times since merge. Two of the three dropped no mandible, the third was a 3 mat (21 of each) drop w/ a 3 guild split. So in 6 years or so, I have managed 7 mandible. And yes, I do spend a fair amount of time scouting, but it's not all I do and most often, I'm not doing it in group or part of a coordinated effort. But that's OK, if I can't get by w/o every piece of equipment I'm using being uber quality, i should have quit playing long ago.

So yes, the current system favors larger groups working together for a common goal devoting the majority of their time to it which is not a bad thing. The problem, if you will, was most evident prior to the shutdown before server merge when there were many players grinding jools from GHs stacked with 10,000+ spu zun. I can understand the mindset of getting enough to craft what is necessary to supply your guild or supply your faction. But what I have noticed since merge is that it's less about that and more about keeping the good stuff away from the "evil people".

The only way that I see the issue being addressed fairly across the board is if availability was limited **similar to** instanced situations but without the overhead of creating the infrastructure necessary to do so. Unfortunately, how this might be implemented in a manner that could not be subverted is something I have not been able to formulate. For example, if mats "aged", say anything over xxx mats degraded after a certain time ... regardless of the difficulty in implementing it, peeps would subvert by adding more GHs or crafting off and then you'd have to have equipment aging too which i don't like.

Given the above, I wouldn't support any change to the existing system.... but would love to examine any idea that isn't geared to provide advantage or disadvantage to any subset of the player base.

Editado 2 veces | Última edición por Fyrosfreddy (6 años hace)

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#25 Añadido por Sarpedonia 6 años hace [en]

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As a very old timer that just had their character restored from pre-database wipe. I find that mats are obnoxiously difficult in comparison to 6+ years ago.

IF there is to be any adjustments, it should return to the days of old.

NO damn way should choice and lower mats only pop in areas of agro.
LEAVE THE AGRO to Sup and Prime roots like it used to be.

I abstain from this poll, as it is too general and far too open to interpretation of the yes vs no.

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#26 Añadido por Sinvaders 6 años hace [en]

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We don't say that choice mats should get harder to dig.

#27 Añadido por Bitttymacod 6 años hace [en]

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Sarpedonia

As a very old timer that just had their character restored from pre-database wipe. I find that mats are obnoxiously difficult in comparison to 6+ years ago.

IF there is to be any adjustments, it should return to the days of old.

NO damn way should choice and lower mats only pop in areas of agro.
LEAVE THE AGRO to Sup and Prime roots like it used to be.

I abstain from this poll, as it is too general and far too open to interpretation of the yes vs no.

Hmm. That doesn't match my experience. The "easy mats" that used to be right next to the city gates have moved, it is true, but they are not particularly in aggro areas in the places they have moved to, and there are plenty of areas where the digging is undisturbed by aggro. (I will acknowledge a few cases where a deposit of a particular mat seems to penetrate a bandit camp, but not to the point of impossibility.) The locations of all PR mats is the same as it was prior to the server merge.

-- Bittty (digging since 2008)

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#28 Añadido por Bitttymacod 6 años hace [en]

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Heernis

I'm a pretty new player. Was just informed about the entry. The real problem for new players is not that they do not come to the materials or whose craft has no corresponding levels. But the money system. When you can accumulate endless money, that's a problem.

There has to be a balance between material and money. Like a capitalist economy. At the moment it seems more like socialism to me. You need to know people who can build something or have equipment, or join a guild. Markets are not filled and it's not worth selling good equipment for lower levels for higher levels. That needs to change.

In my not very humble opinion, being able to accumulate endless money is not a "problem" -- it is inherent in the very premise of the game.

Item: Money is a marker for expressing barter at one remove.

Item: Capitalism is based on the ability of a person or group to gain and control access over raw materials and based on the fact that on Earth all resources are limited.

Item: Human societies in areas where nature produces more than the society needs for survival and civilization do NOT INVENT MONEY.

Item: Atys is a growing plant, illuminated by the sun(s), and therefore producing material without limit.

Conclusion: Capitalism will not work on Atys -- nor should the game be adjusted to make capitalism and the economy of scarcity a viable mode of exchange. This is not socialism, it is post-scarcity society.

The statement, "There has to be a balance between material and money" is an axiom based on the idea that there is an inherent scarcity of raw materials. This axiom is false to fact in Atys and therefore null and void.

There is nothing sacred about the idea of money.

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#29 Añadido por Fyrosfreddy 6 años hace [en]

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I believe (from previous discussions), what Sarpe's is saying is that post merge, choice and lower mats **already are** harder than they were pre-merge. And yes, I did notice myself after merge that many of my regular choice grind mat spots were now bordering on areas such that you could expect 2 or 3 attacks per prospect rather than 1 every 3 or so proospects.

OTOH some mats (i.e. 250 Exe Zun in Void), were moved to ridiculously easy spots. I have compensated by digging basic instead of choice in desert where in other areas, some desired basic mats (for amp recipes) are quite difficult (middle of kincher spawn for example).

Note, I'm not saying desired mats should be easy but I also don't think that returning and newer players will be frustrated w/ DP, gear wear and tear and inefficient use of hard to find game time. This is exacerbated by the fact that the difficulty / efficiency level varies greatly between regions and faction TPs.

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#30 Añadido por Gidget 6 años hace [en]

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Bitttymacod

Conclusion: Capitalism will not work on Atys -- nor should the game be adjusted to make capitalism and the economy of scarcity a viable mode of exchange. This is not socialism, it is post-scarcity society.

The statement, "There has to be a balance between material and money" is an axiom based on the idea that there is an inherent scarcity of raw materials. This axiom is false to fact in Atys and therefore null and void.

There is nothing sacred about the idea of money.

Post-scarcity economies are so different from reality that even those who can accept living on a rootball and casting spells at giant insectoids cannot extend their suspension of disbelief far enough to deal with. It causes problems in the minds of those who think every endeavor has to have winners and losers or a power structure that they can climb to the top of.

Just my two dappers worth.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#31 Añadido por Fyrosfreddy 6 años hace [en]

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There has never been a currency based economy in Ryzom, you can go back to the archived forums and Items for Sale were either bartered for other items or "grind mats". Tho I had mastered HA and MA if i wanted that +165 LA Focus set was gonna cost anywhere between 3,000 and 8,000 grind mats. In 14 years of play, I never bought a crafted item from a merchant.

And Gidget, you undersold yaself ... post was easily worth 57 dappie. And to extend G's point ... post merge the desire for "boosted" items has grown into a "must have". That means for every boosted amp, there's 19 premium amps out there that didn't boost, most of which are given away.

As for unlimited money ... it takes quite a while to get to that point in the post-merge economy. First thing I did after 2 minutes on Silan was head to the stable where I had a case of sticker shock and responded by taking my 4 alts over and stealing their starter cash. Just going about your normal business should be more than enough to pay for ya TPs and Mek Food. The 2 million for apartment and IIRC, 10 million for each capital city GH. takes a while but then it's clear sailing unless ya need to spring for that way outta line 90 million to restore NPC plans.

Just going about my business w/o double dipping w/ alts, I'd earn about 10 million a month from crafts and Occs. When I hit 12, I'll lose 10 to GH or handouts to new players and go from 2 to 12 again next month. Tho, of late, spending time on Tribe Fame, I'd say its cut in half.

But I don't wanna veer to far off the original post subject except that Mats is the current economy. And in that respect its very much like RL ... if ya born w/ a rich daddy, life is easy. And the point Sin is making is "What fun is it having a giant new yacht if everybody has one ? In Ryzom terms, it's not enough to have the biggest stick, it's about making it so that the guy you go up against has a smaller one.

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#32 Añadido por Sarpedonia 6 años hace [en]

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And this is why I am proud to call you friend and guildmate Freddy.
You are spot on and articulated my point quite well. All mats in desert from Q50 up to Q250 have seemingly gotten less newbie or returning player friendly.

Yes there are some easy no agro mats. But they are only small portions of the craft plans. To craft anything even a crappy basic give away, you have to endure agro for at least half the required mats. This was not really the case at all premerge/database wipe.

Want a very specific example?
Amber and seed. I could sit just at the edge of Dyron and dig till my eyes bled. Q200 but that is how I got my jewel craft up. Likewise for Q250, there was a special corner in the 250 area. Dig away with no issues. the ONLY catch was, you depleted the sources pretty often.

Now, seed is smack dab in the middle of an agro spawn for 50, 200, 250 at least. I have not checked 100 or 150. Very similar scenario for armor mats as well.

If your experience is different, submit and share your finds with the mat map websites please.

Última edición por Sarpedonia (6 años hace)

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#33 Añadido por Moniq 6 años hace [en]

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Which class do we talk about here? While I had never problem to dig any basic/fine mats for training. And also most of surface excellent just needs knowledge of the specific area.

#34 Añadido por Fyrosfreddy 6 años hace [en]

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Well i think several things are being discussed.

1. Sin wants fewer high end mats.

2. Sarpedonia's comments, at least what i gathered from in game discussions in Guild Chat was commenting that things have already been made harder post-merge and let's not take it any further. Three things factor in to being an "efficient" dig spot:

Proximity to TP
Proximity of Hawker
All mats within reasonable walk distance

Pre-merge, in desert, I could dig all the choice mats I wanted ... desired choice mats, mind you ... with a short walk from a TP and with a once / twice a day or so aggro attack. Today, yes I can find easy spots for each mat but it's inconvenient as dragging your mek around and long walks to / from TPs and hawkers are often required. To find all 4 mats of ya typical armor / weapon craft close to one another **in a zone that has close access TPs and hawkers** not so much.

Loria Ponds is one such area but, except for Mara is a pain to get to / from and rarely has a Hawker. Lost Valley is probably the most used for this purpose and it remains the only spot that I have seen knock the KT line down to any significance since merge. Access thru Void TP stinks for me but neighboring region HoP is not bad.

Flaming Forest has decent TP and Hawker access but many choice mats are right in aggro spawns. I have adjusted by switching to basic which is OK for me since Harvest XP is meaningless and craft XP yields the same no matter what the mat grade is.

I keep a packer in Void, Lakes and Desert ... can't be bothered w/ Forest. In lakes I keep in Lake Superior cause the no Hawker thing in Loria Ponds is a deal killer for me.

However, to the new or returning player who hasn't mastered all dig regions, the goal will be do dig choice to maximize dig XP and craft in close proximity to a TP and hawker. Not commenting why either is a good or bad thing, but he is correct ... it is harder to dig choice mats relatively undisturbed post-merge at a spot that fits the 3 criteria above.

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#35 Añadido por Sarpedonia 6 años hace [en]

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The running doesn't bother me so much in comparison of having limited ability to fullfil craft plans without incuring death penalty.

Freddy is correct that my issue is to make sure people don't talk the devs into making it MORE difficult than it is with a preference of reverting to what dig conditions were premerge.

Making digs for general XP hard or impossible for newcomers just does not sell the game to anyone. If we make the game difficult to the point where you need master melee/heal/nuke to dig, we will have a population issue worse than we keep seeing over the years.

Nevrax went under due to poor marketting imo. Maybe it was other things as well, but not selling the game or advertising it doesn't make a game live. Then you add ontop of a huge learning curve and difficult starting in a "WoW" gamer age, This will remain a ghost town.

Basic mats should be agro free or very limited. Increase the agro occurance to match the quality of the mats.

For those that "have no issue" Do you report and share your dig finds on map sites? If not, you can't really expect any positive replies from returning players or new players....let alone agreements with you.

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#36 Añadido por Moniq 6 años hace [en]

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Sarpedonia

For those that "have no issue" Do you report and share your dig finds on map sites?

No. I gave up making any marks on map, I simply use BM to see where it should be and then it is not hard to locate there. And when I dag somewhere before I usually remember. However, showing spots to others when it comes to a question.

I think its still best to track random ex and then let tracking to lead me. I like random digging, if anything i like on digging :P

Última edición por Moniq (6 años hace)

Last visit martes 26 noviembre 18:21:22 UTC

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IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Does the game needs adjustments