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1&3 - If my rate was only 3% then fine, whatever. That's Ryzom. But my experience so far is closer to 13%. My luck has been bad enough that your argument is not really any different from arguing that seat belts are useless because you personally have never been in a car accident. The distribution has been such that I cannot attribute it to luck though, unless you are willing to concede that your own personal experience is in no way, shape, or form any more indicative of reality than mine.

5 - Part of the beef I have is simply that I've seen enough folks who are all, "Travel is it's own reward!", that hearing that the best thing about DMs is visiting more parts of Atys evokes a visceral reaction. If my boss paid me in navel lint instead of dollars, I'd have a similar reaction. Don't tell me something is an upside unless it's something I actually care about. Add in that I've had more bum missions than you by large margin (and for a STUPID reason), and you wind up with an even larger sense of "Why bother?" simply because of broken things.
My opinion will change once Loria missions are fixed to be as doable as the other region's missions are now, but until then, don't bother trying to tell me broken stuff is good even if I like what they are trying to do.

7 - That was in response to your split feelings on crystals.

8 - I got here just after Merge. I didn't know about NH until I was pretty high in all fames and good enough at dig/craft to earn more dappers more easily from overseers. Different experiences, so different opinion.

9 - If I read right, you do an hour a night per occupation. That means that on your four-occupation nights, you're already on for at least twice as long as I often get these days. Run that chart on 90 minutes 4 days a week and see if you'd be as ambitious. Also, since you mentioned "vagaries of chance", re-read the first paragraph of this post. Again, different experiences, so different opinion.

Im have not been and have no intention of trying to argue that you are wrong here ... Your points are valid based upon the assumptions you've made.  But I think you will find that those assumptions do not serve well.

1&3.  The seat belt example is a false equivalancy.  We are both doing DMs and both have had failures.   This is simple math / science and mathematics ... just like work :) .  The accuracy of any predicted outcome is based upon sample size ... like polls... a sample size of 1000, will produce greater accuracy then a sample, size of 100.  A sample size across all relevant demographics will be more accurate than one that isn't.  We can't give an accurate estimation of drowning deaths by sampling the population of Prudoe Bay Alaska and a sampling of 10,000 people will be more accurate than 100.    Statistics is a science, that science has it's rules and that science produces consistent and reliable results.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/

I have done DMs every day since day 1 and due to the less than 24 hour cooldown I prolly picked up an extra 1 or 2.  You said you do 4 days a week and lets assume you also started day 1.  So if I have done 280 missions, you have done 160.  Using the referenced standard statistival error calculator, and  a year's worth of daily missions (2,550) as our yearly mission count, my margin of error with my sampling size is 6%.  Your margin of error with your smaller sampling size is 8%.... Not huge, but not equal either ... 33% more  

But more importantly , "where's the beef".   If we both did NH, we'd wind up with about 163 crystals.   If we did DMs, we'd have 1050 crystals with 7 successful missions.   Your 13% is a bit less than 1 a day so lets call it consertaively and give ya the edge of 1 failure a day (14.2%) ... so with 1 failure per day,  your getting a bit more than 900 crystals per day on average.

In short, there's absolutely nothing to concede here... the reality actually is that a) larger sampling size = more accuracy and b) being "goal oriented" you are far exceeding you previous goal as DMs, even with the failures factored in, are giving you more crystals per day.

5.   This analogy is another false equivalency.

Option 1 - You belong to a dinner theater club and every 2nd Thursday of every month they go to the same theater, see the same show and have the same meal.  Same story, same actors, nothing varies.

Option 2 - You belong to a dinner theater club and every 2nd Thursday of every month they go to the a different theater, see a different show and enjoy a different cuisine.

Which group is more knowledgeable ? ... who will be more knowledgeable about the various talents of the actors, writers, directors when evaluating whether to see a new show coming to town ?  The knowledge I have gained in the geography, aggro locations, pathways, etc. from doing tribe missions has made me far more capable in traversing the planet safely simply because of the exposure to what I learned.

I learned that traversing EI clockwise is hard ... counterclockwise is easy.  Collecting puzzle pieces was a piece of cake as I could navigate many areas far easier than I could before, gaining that knowledge when chasing tribe fame before DMs came about.  My survivability rate has improved as a result of doing Tribe Fame.  Everything i do in game has benefitted because I have additional knowledge that I didn't have before.

If this doesn't mean beans to you, it is still irrelevant.  I think we can agree that a good thing is when the pluses's exceed the minus's.  So if it's your position that none of this benefits you in any way, shape or form, then any negative impact that you can present makes your case.  Let's look and see if that is actually possible.

As I understand it, your position is that they can shove DMs because NH is better since you can't fail and the DMs fail 13% of the time.  That's not been my NH experience.  Doing 3 occs and 6 practices per occ in each "sitting" ... I often screw a couple up.  So there are failures, my fault but still failures.
You don't need dappers, and you don't need fame so it's clear that you are doing NH for crystals.  At 50 fame, you earn 50 nation points per product or 1800 NPs max per day.  At 11 points and 11 dappers per QL500 crystal, you can buy (163) Q500 crystals.

Now with the alternate DMs, you earn 18 Elyps for one mission.  With your 13% failure rate, you are completing just over an average of 6 mission per day, earning you 108 Elyps.  Each stack of 100 QL crystals costs you 12 Elyps, allowing you to buy 900 crystals.

So where's the minus ?   With 1 failure per day, how is your goal oriented approach in any way being negatively impacted in any way.  When your reward with 1 failure / day, you are exeeding your established goal by a factor of 5.5

Even if you went full on faction / nation with 100 fame, you'd get 655 crystals w/ NH ... so where's the beef when, by doing daily missions w/ one failure per day you are now getting 1.4 times more rewards those 100 fame factioned doods get w/ NH ?  Not only are you no longer a 2nd class citizen, you are getting more than them.  As it stands now, you need only complete 2 missions per day .. 5 missions could be broken and you'd still be ahead of where you were before.

I'll need you to provide a quote to address the claim that I said "broken is good".  No such suggestion has been made.  Your taking issue with a "downside" that, as has been demonstrated above, does not exist.   It's unfortunate that a small % of missions are broken .

In no way does that say "broken is good", its says "yes some missions are broken, but you are in no way being negatively impacted so there's nuthin to complain about.  Do just 2 missions a day and you're ahead of the game ... then go do NH and double up.

So now, what can we do about it ?  How can we make it better ?

I have reported each mission that I have been unable to complete.  IIRC, 4 have been acknowledged as not possible, for other 3 the response was, "I found them, they can be completed".  So maybe my "broken" is really half what I think it is.

One, not in the 7 was completed after another player told me where to look.  One I had yesterday, I was unable to complete.  The Voracious Wombai I found at ponds by Kami TP there in summer was not in Autumn....  but I had completed it previously.  So if I did it in summer and couldn't do it in autumn, is that broken or is that Life in Atys ?

The remaining topics have kinda been rendered moot by the preceding but for clarity

8.  I don't see the reasoning.  Either something is unbalanced or it isn't.  If it's unbalanced in 2004 and still exists in 2009, 2014 or 2019. it's still inbalanced.  DMs are not giving you anything less than NH, it's giving you more... much more.   More importantly, it's giving everyone the same opportunity.  No more imbalance.  I expect the rewards will be tweaked as tme goes by ... and the purchase costs are relatively outta whack.  Crystals are cheap, Wundahmat ridiculously expensive ...


9.  I guess it's because of our different approaches to game that I was unable to adequately convey the perspective in first series of posts.   To my eyes, how much you get is not so much te point ... inbalance is a horrible thing.

How would you describe ....

-Having one race that is significantly more powerful than all others
-Having one weapon that is significantly more effective than the others
-Having one class that gets significantly more rewards than the other

My answer to all is  "poor game design".  A chnage was made... it presented an imbalance, attemps are underway to correct it.

9.  Not quite ... It typically takes me an hour or so to collect certs for the most common occupations (Water / Mag Cart).   Hard to tell as always interupted by craft requests, out of game obligations ... I timed mag cart once and it was 64 minutes to collect a week's worth of certs.  Butcher takes me a good part of a day. Medic and Scrollmake go fast.  Toolmaker and Florst take more than they should beause i don't like doing what averyoine else dos and repeatedly abandonong missions i don't like.  But then Im done for the week.   When doing NH, I'd do 6 practices at one sitting and then do the NH hand ins daily spending 2 minutes aday.

But I havent done NH in about 3 years .... no need for any of the rewards.   When Skiy was restoring her NPC Armor Plans,  I sold Q70 scrolls for 9999% markup.   Best income I have come across so far.  Grinding craft left me dumping 10 mill a month in GH.  After completing crafts, moved onto tribe fame and that was surprsingly and unexpectedly well compensated.  I took 15 propecting missions today for tribe fame and made about 3 - 4 million with 2-3 deliveries thrown in.  I been 50-50-50-50 fame since a month after merge.

But the concept of obtaining fame, rewards or dappers ... when needed.... should be proportional to the effort involved.  And if one path is alarmingly more poductive than others, then the others for the most part become irrelevant.  It's my position that the goal of game design is to provide balance... NH destroyed that, it was recognized and efforts are being made to correct it.

And that is THE reason why after being removed, NH is now back and, I presume, why it exists side by side, wuth DMs.  You can do DMs or if you don't like them stick with NH.  If you prefer not doing DMs because you run into a broken mission, no one is stopping your from continuing to do NH.  This is a test / tweaking period, missions will be fixed, rewards will be tweaked.  keep doing NH until the broken mission count is more to your liking.  Or keep the staus quo and only attempt 2 missions  a day.

It is not false equivalency to just not be in the same part of the distribution curve as you are. Increased sample size is likely to tend towards the median, but it doesn't always move towards the median without fail. As unlikely as it is, it is possible to flip 100 fair coins and have all 100 land Heads. I see your refusal to avoid admitting that it's possible that you and I have had different experiences as basically refuting that (1/(2^100)) is still greater than zero. I didn't think I was asking for a huge concession there. Also, surveys and probabilities are different enough that I question the relevance of that link since it pretty much refutes/dismisses the existence of data too far from the mean; data like much of my entire life, ingame and offline. I hope that you aren't saying that I don't matter because I'm too far outside the norm to fit the narrative!

We agree that big positives and small negatives equals "overall a good thing", but you're overlooking that it's not all about the crystals for me. More crystals is a positive, yes, but the frustration and annoyance of broken missions is a negative, no matter how much you downplay it. A rather large one for me, actually. Sure, it's a lot more crystals, but that should tell you how big a negative I consider running into broken things at a rate that you seem to consider impossible really is to me. I simply don't see a positive that is outweighed by a huge negative as a good thing. Again, my opinion would be different if my luck put me as close to the center of the bell curve as you seem to be, but I've gotten so used to being a statistical anomaly that I consider hoping for a normal life (like the one you tried to tell me I have with your lesson on statistics, evidence to the contrary be damned) to be a variant of the Monte Carlo fallacy.

Speaking of false equivalencies, since when does knowledge correlate with love of travel? Is it not possible to do things and learn from them without liking the enough to consider them something you'd seek out? I'm glad you like to travel for the sake of travel, but I do not share your passion, and would appreciate it if you weren't condescending about that. Now, if you argued that there was a correlation with how much you traveled then I might be inclined to agree, but that's not what happened.

There is no need for a direct quote due to your constantly going on and on about the benefits of missions while downplaying the negatives, and also admitting a few things are broken. You obviously think DMs are good despite being broken. If you want to dissuade me of that notion, then do something about the factors that led me to that conclusion. And while you're at it, don't tell me I'm not negatively affected by something that negatively affects me. If I want gaslighting, I'll argue politics on Facebook!

Whether something is technically possible at all and whether it's possible do on a given night are two separate things. If I'm given a mission that I cannot do for reasons beyond my control like season, then it's effectively broken regardless of whether it's possible at some other time of the Atysian year. To me, giving missions that require disproportionate T&E or are simply not able to be done is unbalanced and in need of fixing. Some missions are locked off during certain seasons, so part of it is obviously fixable with relative ease. And it does strike me that Loria NPC hunting is problematic since similar missions in the other three regions are done in a reasonable amount of time without issues.

We do agree that DMs are more balanced than NH, and I really would like to see DMs work out. But as it stands, they have far enough to go that I feel NH needs to stick around while the bugs get worked out. It's not a matter of liking NH so much as considering reliable things better than broken things in the absence of any factors that tip the scales in favor of one or the other. You put different weights on different factors, so of course you have a different opinion.

Is simple math ... the answers are absolute with certain ranges and there's no different way to interpret results differently.  More data = better results.   I've used this data to predict life cycle costs for roads, treatment plants, construction costs, municipal budgeting, etc.  The process is a mandatory question on the engineer's licensing exam.  Doing it incorrcrtly and outside accepted standards can not only result in lawsuits, dismissal but loss of licensure.

Simply put, it is accepted science.  As I indicated, and as the sampling shows... thos results wull prove to be accurate 95% of the time ... in other words.... 1 out of 20 times, my numbers will be wrong. So no, it in no way implies that your experience does not matter ... it's just that it matters less ... it's will be a less reilable indicator due to the lower probability of it representing the actual failure rate.

If you bet on red 4 times at the roulette table and win 3 times, what odds would you recommend to the casino manager for a bet on red ot black ?   How about we meet at a casino and with your 3:1 data set you pay me just 2.5 to 1 for every time I put a $100 bill on black ... say when. 

You seem to confuse the terms Possibility and Probability.  No, possibility does not = probability.   The chances of 10 heads in a row are 1024 to 1

A classic example is as follows:

You measure the time it takes a single job applicant to type a letter at 1,000 locations throughout the US and results vary from 1.5 to 19.5 minutes.  The actuall average of the 1,000 is 10.5 minutes.    But what is the probability of any subset of people coming out at 10.5 ?

Sampling of 10 people = 7.65 - 13.35
Sampling of 100 people = 9.24 - 11.46

So no, I am not saying that the smaller sampling size doesn't matter, I am saying that it matters less than the more accurate sampling of 100.  If byou are betting on probabilities, for budgetary planning, capital project planning. vegas oddsmaking, your odds of "hitting the correct number" are  vastly greater with larger sampling sizes.

What constitutes a broken mission ?

a)  Kill a mob that doesn't exist.  Agreed.
b)  Killing a mob that you can not defeat solo. Life's tough
c)  Killing a mob that exists that you can't find.  Look again.
d)  Killing a mob that is part of a spawn containing different level creatures ... and you won't see the one you need until spawn is killed and respawns.  Again, life is tough.  Success is not guaranteed.
e)  Killing a mob that is not present in the current season.  This seems unfair but who said life here or in Atys is fair ?  I'd prefer it was possible, but I rec'd no guarantee that every mission could be competed.

I would expect that as problem missions are troubleshooted, some of those categories will be given higher priority.  I would like it if I could do all those missions ... but I don't make the rules.   I generally report all of those categories.  I'd reject a "not broken" determination on only the 1st.  Id argue the point for last based upon my personal PoV but would accept a decison of the decision makers determined otherwise.

I am a bit puzzled as to the sourve of your expectation that we are somehow entitled to complete all missions.  What if mission was "Kill Dai-Den solo".   Possible, but I wouldn't invest the T & E to do it.  What if one mission popped up "Haha... a Bounty Hunter came by and stole ya mission."

There's an idea ... as each problem is reported, it is replaced with "Bounty Hunter took your mission" message ... and leave it that way until volunteer efforts result in a fix.  Is that better ?  Nothing in ife is guaranteed, not on earth, not on Atys. 

Your position also dictates that replacement system should not exist until all the bugs are eliminated ?  That makes no sense:

a)  Who are you expecting to find all the problem missions ?  How much longer should a good portion of the player base remain 2nd class citizens in order to accomplish this ?
b)  Why take the option to do DMs out ? ... no one is forced to do them ?   You are free to choose to remain a 2nd class citizen and do NH.
c)  Is there any better way to find these problem missions than thru the ticket system ?

To my view, the expecation of perfection is unreasonable.   If you demand perfection, don't choose the DM option ... stick with old reliable NH.  This is a new feature ... there's going to be bugged missions.  How do you deal with the fact that sometimes we're told to collect 5 skulls and one out of 4 kills actually drops one.  I once killed 23 mid level bolobis to get the last drop I needed.

The DM interface has errors saying to do an Occ in the wrong region ... so what ?   Follow procedure ... submit a ticket .  I have asked if you have submitted tickets ... given the lack of response, I'' conclude no until informed otherwise.  Well how can anyone fix what they are not aware of ?

Speaking of false equivalencies... creating them is not a response.   In order to provide counterpoint to a statement, that statement has to actually have been made.  That's simply not happening here, they're being fabricated.  No one can't provide a direct quote unless those words were actually uttered.  Every example you have given was never stated or implied.   hese are imaginary constructs.  Counterpoint can not consist of "Let me tell you why these positons you have never taken are wrong".

Never said that "broken is good' ... never said that "things weren't broken" ... never said "travel for its own sake is good" tho the entire tourist industry of the world is based upon just that assumption. See natutal wonders, enjoy new experiences, learn new things.  In fact,  I clearly stated that I filed tickets for missions that are broken multiple times.  How do you reconcile that with the "nothing is broken" claim ?.  Has a new game ever been released w/o bugs ?

To get over the inherent bias against all things DM, let's take them out of the equation for a moment.  Please confine responses only to words in italicized text without adding wording, positions and meanings that are not there. 

1.  When I was pursuing tribe fame, in one instance the tribe I was working on was in Upper Bog.  I don't spend much time in forest and of all the sub-regions there, I have spent the least time in UB.  I did the mission and I get +3 fame, and 259k dappers and now I have a safe haven to escape mobs or go afk in their camp.  Please explain how this is "travel for its own sake" with no benefit when I now have +3 fame, more Yubo points, an aggro safe zone and 259,000 dappers ?  Not everone may be thrilled about all of them but if none appeal to you,m gotta ask ... why do NH or DMs ?

2.   As a result of this travel ... an area I always avoided cause not having spent much time there I died a lot, is now available to me.  With increased knowlede and familiarity, I can now effortlessly travel thru the area having discovered safe havens, mob patterns, safe pathways ... now giving me full access to the reqion without repeatedely dying.  Rewards = less wasted time having to respawn and start again to travel desitiation (*i.e. Mada boss) , less working off DP ... how can increased options, time saved, access to more resources be considered of no benefit ?

3.  As a result of this travel, as I continue other efforts ... I learned I can now access craft mats as well as get to nameds and bosses easier.  I picked up several mission mat locations that I had not found in any other region and others that were available easier than in other regions.   Again, saved time, easier access to resources is a definitive benefit.  When I need a specific mission mat or craft mat ... I'd go to "what I knew" and I'd sit and wait or maybe take 3-4 tries (resulting in death)  to get in a position to harvest something .  As a result, I can meet goals, that I previously struggled with in shoter times, less T & E and less DP.

4.  When taking folks to FH, traveling thru BB, always took the same route ... the same route we trekked in 2004 when I first went to FH.  From doing Tribe Missions, I found alternate routes, that are much safer.  I now have safe havens where we can run from mobs and get saved by the federales or in tribe camps.  Whereas in the past I wouldn't go thru BB w/o a team of 3-4 ...now Im fine doing solo or trekking a new player.   I can not fathom how this can not be seen as a tangible benefit.

5.  During Anlor Wiin, I skipped a few puzzle pieces because they were in areas just too hard to get to.  In EI idie several times and skipped that bone when it popped.  This time, as a result of comleting tribe fame missions, I found just approaching in a more roundabout fashion, I could use lakes, ponds, OPs and tribe camps to do the trek safely by shedding aggo at each spot.  No you can claim there's no tangible benefit from any of this but the argument is far from convincing.

To address the no benfit to "travel for travel's sake ...  Why ever leave lakes ? ... Ever been to Virginia Falls ?  Why ?  Did you get XP ?  Did you get unique mats ?   Or was it just nice too look at ?

You have yet to provide one instance of actually being negatively affected by DMs in any measurable way... in what way specifically is your toon worse off since DMs were introduced.  Yes, we get it ... you wanted to do 7 missions and you could only do 6.  No disagreement there.   Now let's talk relevancy.  In what measurable way is your toon disadvantaged because of DMs.   You're sitting in court, claim your damages.   It's like the guy who claims ... "since the accident, I can't play the piano".   Before the accident, he couldn't play the piano.  Since DMs came about ... what is it that you can not do that you could do before ?

Would your skill level in any area be higher if DMs never existed ?
What resources would you have that you don't have because DMs are here ?

So exactly how are you disadvantaged ?  Your perceived damage is that you wasted time and didn't get your just rewards.   Prove it.  Show us how you got less rewards than you would have gotten w/o DMs.  Let's imagine NH actually was gone and we're flies on the wall and the devs are trying to decide which route to take ... fix all the missions, or just give greater rewards ...

a)  8/10 missions work and you get 25 rewards for each
b)  10/10 missions work and you get 20 rewards for each

In both cases, we are attempting 10 missions so T & E is same .... in both cases you getting the same rewards.   How are we in any way disadvantaged ?  In court of law, you have to prove damages. ... you can't.  Completing 6/7 is still giving you more rewards than NH did.

Here's a very real example....  My son once paid 15% over the cost of a reference GFX card for an EVGA card with a custom PCB and 20% factory OC.  We went thru 20 support calls over 18 months and 5 RMAs to no avail.   They finally sent a next generation reference card with no factory OC.  Do we have a case for claiming ... my old card was 15% faster than reference cards .. this one is not.    He enjoyed a sense of pride because he was 15% faster than everyone else.  Now his card is just run of the mill and he no longer gets the same sense of satisfaction of having something special.

No we can't .. we were guaranteed a certain level of performance and the new reference card is faster than the old fancy smancy card.  Case closed.   You may get a sense of personal satisfaction by completing 100% of the missions, but the only way you can be "disadvantaged" is by showing you are "getting less". 

You do realize that NH is still here right ?   I followed the official posts as we went from NH to "no NH" to DM + NH ?    It was made clear that the system will be revamped and that NH would remain in place until it's where they want it to be ... well balanced and, hopefully ... eventually, bug free.

1.  NH had issues, we were advised that a new system would be incorporated.

2.  They put in a new system, everyone complained .. mosty that the unbalance that they enjoyed was gone, also because it had minor quirks.

3.  They announced that they would revise and reintroduce the new system while leaving NH in place giving players the option or doing either.   You already have exactly what you want.


The other parts not discussed.

1.  All the missions that I have encountered that can not be completed are kill missions.  Simple Solution - Select "None" for Fight missions, problem solved.  Take 7 missions from the other 3 categories.

2.   Select the 4 occupations that you do for NH for DMs, that leaves you just 3 missions, greatly reducing the chance of getting an undoable missions.  

3.  When you talk about 13%, that's just for Loria missions ? ... It's not clear but ***if*** so, when we include all 4 regions .... we're talking 3.25 %

On average we're talking 4 different types of missions...

-I have never had a craft mission fail over the past 18 months I have been pursuing fame.
-I have never had a forage mission fail over the past 18 months I have been pursuing tribe fame.
-I have never had a track, deliver, explore mission fail over the past 18 months I have been pursuing tribe fame.


So if your mission failure rate is 13% ... you're talking the % of kill missions failiing is 52% ... Having done all the tribes in Loria before DMs.  And the DMs consisting of faction, nation and by far the majority being tribe missions.  I can remember:

- A kipee mission on OC

If I did not know you, I would have a very bad opinion of you based on this entire exchange. As it stands, I feel that this discussion is utterly pointless, and that I've had enough of being dismissed, disrespected, and outright gaslit that I'm just going to walk away from your uncharacteristic megalomania. Hopefully when next we meet, you will be the more reasonable Freddy that I've liked and respected for years rather than whoever wrote the last few posts that have your name attached to them.

I will say that I've found a way to make DMs marginally tolerable, but that does nothing to sway my opinion about being drafted into the beta-testing, and (especially) not my feelings about being blown off and talked down to for simply not having a mainstream experience.

I would take the opportunity to address a longer pet peeve of mine, using this example.

First, some prerequisites. What is the beginner and average player knowledge level? How aware are they of the bugs-dressed-as-features of Ryzom? How inclined are they to have patience to figure out the details? Mostly rhetorical questions.

Oh, and second set of pre-requisites: what is the purpose of a daily mission in other games?

Now, onto the quote:

a) Non-existing mob is in the category "beyond broken". Especially grating since killing "goo mobs" has been an item in regular mission lists for years. Seeing the same flavor of problem again is ... I have no words.

b) Un-soloable mob is in the category "grating but acceptable". In any other game, I would say that the level designer who told me to kill a mob that's way too difficult is a dingus. In Ryzom, this is typical, you're expected to ask for a party. Fine, let's allow it.

c) Mob/npc that is incredibly difficult to find - No, sorry, I hated this in the past, and I'm certainly not the only one. But at least with regular missions, it was my choice to pick up the task - presumably I had the time/inclination to go around looking for things. But in a daily? No, this doesn't mesh well with my definition for a daily - too time-consuming and frustrating. It's not fit to be a daily mission if it takes 3 quarters of an hour and several stacks of death penalty.

Being able to look items up on BMSite just marginally improves things. Many people, myself included, dislike having to resort to out-game resources. It takes you out of the game, and it spoils the fun somewhat.

d) Needing to kill a spawn in order to get a different mob - this is completely anti-intuitive. Over the years, hundreds of newbies have asked for help with "that kipee mission in Fairhaven"; many others may have simply given up on the game thanks to such idiosyncrasies.

This is a clear case of a bug dressed as a feature, and therefore such an experience has NO place in daily missions. Consider that higher level players sometimes fail to remember this particular aspect of the game, suffering needlessly before someone puts them out of their misery.

e) Daily mission, but you are season restricted? As in, needing to wait 2-6 real life days, just for one mission? This is anything but a daily.

f) Bonus: the ordeal of occupations in dailies. Figuring out occupations when you're a beginner is difficult to begin with. Trying to balance dropping and retaking several occupations is simply too much mental overload for most players that I know.

In short -- I like the idea of dailies, it is a clear step in the right direction, but so far the entire system is plagued by the issues carried from existing mechanics and designs in the game.

I am sure things will improve with time, but only if we drop this attitude of "I've played for years and I'm a geek, therefore everyone would get the same kind of enjoyment as I do". The player base is far more diverse than that.

a) broken misssion;
b) depends on how the mission is advertised, I have no problem with it;
c) I'm fine with it as long as it's guarentee the mob exist when you take the mission;
d) broken by design (level-designer were lazy I would say);
e) once again, broken by design ... when you take a mission you except it to be doable right after not 4 days.

Well put!

It stands to reason that someone who has played more than most people have worked in an eight-year stretch would have a different idea of what is fun and what is acceptable than those who treat Ryzom as a game instead of a job. But yes, the player base is far more diverse than that.

Some of us play less than 20 hours a week. A lot of folks started less than five years ago. There are quite a few that don't even have any masters, let alone 20+. Ryzom isn't just for grognards!

As a new player (Dec 28th I posted so Djinn probably a few days old at that time), when I moved to FH, after scouting around visiting all the NPC's and working out how to use the Missions sorting by double clicking on Mission tab title, generaly getting to grip with everything that was new after Silan, I went about checking the DM's.

Out of season harvested items has been a bit of a pain considering they are daily's,(will take time to see and learn the seasonal cycle that pop's them, but mainly been an issue with my "Kishookapala" in Zora) but most frustrating is that on Djinn's tab now are mostly Matis quests, maybe a Fyros and a Zorai. For a new player with no access untill Trekked, it's quite frustrating.

Most people wont have time to plan and engage in a Trek that can take several hours, so including some planning could take days for some, so not realy daily friendly.

I have quite a bit of time so have been exploring the surrounding outer regions of AA, so having fun and DM's are not so mush a priority for me due to above, I am finding other things to occupy me, but my guess is that many new players on f2p (I am subbed and am taking my sweet time, so those frustrations for me are quite small but mentionable)may well get through Silan, and think, nah! not for me, and consequently be put off from subbing at all, or just pack up and leave anyhow.

(the attrition rate is probably high anyhow for people trying it on steam and maybe not used to anything like Ryzom, but these things can only make that worse imo).

I would prefer if there was also a seperate tick box for regional Daylies. I have tried filtering differently, but to no avail yet, will try more when the DM page resets.

But thought I would post my humble observation.

PS. Kishoo has marked all seasonal harvestables he has found so far and will be visiting them each season and taking notes, so no great chore, as I enjoy such activity, but as mentioned above, some may not be inclined to do such and end up abandoning quite a few gathering DM's as a result and get frustrated in what is left to do that does not involve days of faffing about to do what is supposed to be a Daily!


Regards Djinn

This morning I had a parcel delivery to an NPC in Min-Cho from the Prospector in the jungle. No such NPC was found. I went around several times and flagged them all on my map and double checked again.

Did not find the NPC, but was not wasted, I went on to flag all NPC's in all Townships, took me all morning. So now I have all NPC's (that I could find, and in the Jungle) for future reference.

Okay, through sheer bloody mindedness, I learned a valuable bit of info I had no clue about.

Those apartment buildings? Thought they were just for Homins and Guilds. Nope, Many contain important NPC's. So chalk that up to ignorance remedied with further Exploration.

The Min-Cho mission got completed, even if it did take me around 4 hrs. So now I have learned a valuable lesson, check apartment blocks, those with Guards at boittom of the ramps are indications in this case with looks of it in Zora.

Humbly Djinn

Djinn, i find your comments here of immense helpfulness, i applaud your making them. ty ... they are proving to be also for me very helpful and informative 8)

Thanks Tryroamer, glad my bumbling around helped someone else along the way. :)

I'm not addressing you,  your experience, your personality or your ego.  Such thinks have no place in intellectually honet debate.  Neither mine nor yours is relevant in any way.  This isn't personal.  It's math.  If you want to provide counterpoint,  skip the derogatory personal characterization distraction and show the math.  


"The law of large numbers is closely related to what is commonly called the law of averages. In coin tossing, the law of large numbers stipulates that the fraction of heads will eventually be close to 1/2. Hence, if the first 10 tosses produce only 3 heads, it seems that some mystical force must somehow increase the probability of a head, producing a return of the fraction of heads to its ultimate limit of 1/2. Yet the law of large numbers requires no such mystical force"

Outside of Ryzom, I don't recognize mystical forces.  Every industry uses the same procedure... Hard Drive MBTF, Tire Mileage Warranty, Life insurance, car insurance, investment.

Yes it's always possible that a set of 10 data points will produce just as accurate a data set of 100 or a set of 1000 ... on occasion.  It's just not as liklely.   The **Law** of Large Numbers favor the larger data set.  It's called a "law" because it has been proven mathenmetically to be unassailable.  That doesn't make the data from the 100 unit sampling worthless ... the 100 and 1000 combined now makes a new data set of 1100.  I hope we can agree that ith just two possible outcomes the chances of black / red at the roulette table are 50 - 50.

Now in 4 spins ... the odds are 50-50, same as a coin toss ... but just one toss astray and the result is 75-25.   If you are going to claim that it is just as likely that 100 tosses will produce 750 - 250, I can only answer "show me the math".  Probability and possibility are two different things, if we can't agree on that basic principle, and the math involved, then we agree, there is no basis for a reasonable discussion.

I'm not going to say you don't have valid points.   They are certainly valid from amy player's PoV and I have made the same arguments myself.... what I do want to say is after looking at missions from different sides over the last 3 or so years while doing them extensively, my position has mellowed. 

Three years ago when I 1st began chasing Tribe fame, I was singing many of the same tunes you are now.   All I can say is, like everything else in Ryzom, every day you learn more.  Were you successful the 1st day your rode  a bike ?  No but you preservered and it got easier.  You been here a while, things have gotten easy and routine ... we have a new thing ... give it some time, it gets easier.  Like a jig saw puzzle, the more pieces ya get in, the easier it is to put in the rest

In an ideal world, nothing would be broken.  But we have to live in the real world ... there are potholes, it rains, kids forget to pick up their socks.  What level of perfection can we expect to be entitled to for ouru $10 a month living in fantasy land.  I saw a coffee cup in GoT ...  I found 3 typos in the last book I read.  My 100 pack of TicTacs only had 99 in it.

Not to make light of your concerns but I went to see the Doc recently because when I move my arm in a very specific way, I get should pain.  So I said "Doc, it hurts when i do this ...He said "Don't do that".  Now of course no patient likes that answerr cause "they wanan do that" ... but the area was irritated and a combination of  a little pain relief and trying as much as possible not to "do that" solved the problem.... the recovery was hastened by looking at the problem from multiple perspectives.  He was joking... but he ws right too.

Let's try that here:

1)  On this Goo Mob thing ... I travel to a tribe camp, I see 5 NPCs that will give me missions. Plus there are several traveling dudes / dudettes.  All told there's some 70 missions I can take from this tribe.  DMs aside for a second, Kill Missions are the least rewarding.  If I want Fame, I'll do delivery / explore.  If I want cash, I'll do craft ... if I want both, I'll do prospecting.

When I'm checking for what i want to fit in my 15 mission limit, kill is always the last choice and this is where most of the broken missions are.  When I see a goo mission,  extremely rare, I skip that mission.   What do I lose by skipping it ?   I just pick one of the other 69 missions available, only 15 of which I can have at any given time.

Getting back on DMs.  Getting a bum mission is disappointing.  So is getting killed by a mob and getting DP, but it happens.  What is the impact ?  You coud simply do another mission ... easy to pick one with more fame, easy to pick one with more dappers.  So realistically, what are you out ? 1) the DM dapper reward is a pittance 2) the token reward is no big thing and thats a risk anyway and 3) the elyps.   No argument there, you prolly want them for something.

But is that any different than the grinch stealing my reward ?   Would you not play the game if one out of every 8 missions was actually designed to fail ?  Disappointing certainly but if its happening less than once in 20 times, is it really a big deal ?   With DMs at center stage now, priorities will shift and the pace of the fixes will increase.

2)  Let's remember that MMOs are designed to be an evolving thing.  Game design involves separate teams and, as targets are revised, one team isn't always in sync with the other.  Given our event history, the goo is also an evolving thing.  I expect that it was envisioned that there would be repeated Goo invasions and as such there would be goo creatures.  The missions were written, and at some point, possibly financial or other considerations pushed the implementation back to a later phase and maybe that phase never happens. 

Now if the devs could wave a magic wand and all missions would be fixed, it would be done ... but, we have to recognize that this takes manhours.   Nobody's living large off the game.   There are 11,000 missions in the game ... when the volunteers sit down to work, do they spend time getting the server back up, killing bugs, developing new content, creating new events  or fixing missions that until now were ignored by most of the population after they hit their desired fame ?  Outside of a few high dapper reward missions, that were repeated by many as often as the cooldown time expired, this substantive part of the game content was ignored.   DMs are changing that focus and as such, it deserves ... and is getting a higher level of priority.

I have been concentrating for the last year or so to max out Tribe Fame; I started chasing the "Spirit of Sally Field" title (where no tribes would KoS me) about 3 years ago... so been at this for quite a while.  Only had the company of 2-3 others over that time to share strategies, NPC and mat locations, etc.   DMs are simply a selection of Tribe + Faction + Nation missions w/ extra rewards; been here just a month.  I do know that each broken mission report is examined; I do know that each mission report gets a reponse and verification. I do know that each verified problem mission is put into a "things to do" database.

DMs are new ... there's a large backlog of fixes to be accomplished and this must be done by a small group of volunteers while at the same time keeping the game up and running.  These people "have day jobs".  We have to ask ourselves, how many hours a week do we put in as volunteers ?  So yes, some things are broken ... With 3 years where missions were a large % of what I do IG every day,  I can say the % of broken missions is not large.  If the  approach was every time a misison is reported as broken, delete it ... does that make the game better ?

I'd urge those who have now taken up missions, to take the time to report them.  Be specific.  Include Mission Giver / Allegiance (i.e. Tribe) / Location / Mission and what makes it broken...include a screenie.

Almost nothing in this game is unsolable.  Go on youtube and you will find examples of Dai Den and a host of other baddies.   And that's the answer I got.  But my position wasn't that it wasn't possible ... The more relevant question is "Is it worth my Time and Effort [T & E] ?.  I went back and explained to support that "if nobody is going to put in the T, E and R (Resources) why bother to have it in."  That's a philosophical question that really only can be decided by those responsible for deciding game balance.   I can see both sides here and Im not seing that one position is any more valid than the other.  Whatever decision s ultimately made, I can accept either outcome.

Do we want to have a game where nothing is a challenge, nothing requires an effort "above and beyond".   I'd like to be able to do everything solo given the state of the population but if everything was easy, would I still be interested in playing ?   What happens after we have everything we want ? ... what's to make us come back ?  Do we want to "finish" the game ?  Is it about the journey or the destination ?  What do we actually need more of such that it's critical that every effort delivers rewards ?  I've been doing DMs for a month and they way things are going, will have no need for Elyps by March.  So yes, while I do have the desire to get rewards for my efforts as often as possible... on the other hand, Im in no rush to finish the game.


Let me take the easy one 1st ... /appzone 855.  We have IG apps, no need to leave game.

https://i.imgur.com/tIsGtMB.jpg

As for the finding ...remember when you were working a mob and then XP stunk and you had to find the next level ...it was some work to find what was just right.  Same for those dig spots ... some were good, some got you dead. eventually like that Goldilocks babe, you found one that was just right.   And when ya were traveling, you tried various routes which got ya killed,,, and over time ya found ya way as you understood / remebered th safe paths.  remeber when you needed to be trekked ... the fact that you are trekking others is not only because you are higher level, you know the routes better.   This is no different.

Remeber when you found your dig spot for shu ?  Was it easy ?  Did you use BM ?   Then you flagged it and it was easy.  Same thing here.  You can find all the NPCs the same way.  Theres a list of all the NPCs here that you can print out.

Tribe Fame List

Most of the NPCs will be in or around the camp ... if you don't have their locations down from hiding in them or getting killed by them,  silenda / BM will allow you to flag them.  Do you use the boss macro ?  Using the same principle, create a macro for all tribe NPC or list the ones on your mission list for the day ... run around spamming the macro and looking for scroll icons on the compass set at 250m.   Or ask around.  I have had stretches of bad luck, over the past 3 years but reached out for help finding elusive NPcs ... asked in region ... anybody seen Jow Bloe today ?  Asked those who had completed maxing out that tribe.   Yes, frusutrating at first, but it gets better.

The best example I can give ya is Kitin Lair .. when I was level 3 or so I was terrible frustrated by continuously getting killed ... I got to the point where I would be happy to get 10X DP so i didn't have to worry about it.  But after a week or so i got good at it... I learned what triggered the attacks I learned how to watch for the kinch, I learned how to avoid the kizoar ... by the 3rd week, I was going down every day and no DP at all.   Then the egg room the pouka patrols made it interesting .. again, died a lot till I learned the patterns ... once the rules were understood, it was cake.

BB and EI I found terrible frustrating to travel in ... now, after spending time there, no worries.  In EI I learned to travel counterclockwise instead of clockwise and everything was simple.

Is it ? ... Cause it's imaginary ...t I have never actually encountered it.   It was a supposition on my part in that I imagine it could happen and suppossing that if it did, would that be "broken" ?    Again, I would find both answers acceptable if it actually occurs.   I have encountered "Kill (4) Yelks 189 or higher"... and then I find them and kill (3) ... but I have to kill (2) other yelks in the spawn to get an immediate repop w/o waiting.  Or I can just run a bit further a way and kill (2) out of the neighboring spawn.  It won't be long before cuttlers or whatever take out the remaining yelks, but I can not say for certain that it does not exist.   When I can't find something, I have to wonder "is this possible" ?  I have no way of knowing but I have yet to encounter it.

1st off, as with much of the complaints about DMs, I don't see the need to exaggerate as the season only last 4.5 days.  But again, this is an imaginary scenario.   I imagine it could happen ... but I have never encountered it with Mobs.  I certainly have encountered a mission mat being out of season in the region that the mission is in.  So  I  just dig it in a different region ... no harm no foul.  I probably dig 55% of mission mats regardess of region of origin in desert 40 % in Void.  Spend more time in those regions so like everything else associated with missions ... familiarity / experience increases efficiency.

Figuring out what to do when you are a beginner is difficult with everything.   Whats to balance ? ... line them up alphabetically... do three occs, after 2 days move to next 3, rinse and repeat.  Miss a day ... where's the crisis ?  I look at my inventory ... count my mats ... I have 72 of these, 72 of these....oh only 36 of them things, I will do that one tomorrow

So far ?  it's been a month and most folks have been doing it far less.   There's 11,000 missions ... that's a lot of content to familiarize ones self with.  If you stopped chasing fame when you hit 100 nation and faction, or 50-50-50-50 then yes, you are at a very significant disadavantage. I think it's fair to say that no one who has been working tribe fame to a significant extent is having difficulties.  They have already seen anf flagged a high % of the missions and already have all the NPcs flagged.

It's irrelevant how many years peeps have played the game.  But how many weeks, months or years one has been focusing on mission is.  Its unarguable that starting DMs with every NPC location flagged and every mission mat flagged is a huge advantage.  But once you have done that, you will be in the same position and it won't be "hard" anymore.

How many folks have you heard say they b hated digging  ... got up to 220 in magic and melee and then were saying "Oh now that I got past 60, it's  a whole different experience.   How good you are at something and how much one enjoys it depends on how much experience they have had and what knowledge and practice they had going in.  Who ever loved music lessons when they started ?

Like any new task, it requires experimentation, it requires thought, it requires developing strategies, it benefits from using available tools.  Its why most of us are here ... it's challenging.  You don't excel in Ryzom by having quick twitch muscles in your fingers, but you will benefit greatly by using the muscle between ya ears.   No need to be a genius, consider all options / actions before they are taken.  And when you learn something, if ya can't keep it in ya head, use a tool to remember it.  Take 15 tribe prospecting missions ? ... invest a few minutes writing down or typng in a  spreadsheet what mats, where you find them and organize your route ...  or you will be wasting tons of time runing back and forth all over the plant

I was terribly inefficient when I started doing Tribe Missions, I didn't know where the NPCs were, I didn't know the routes thru aggro areas in places I didn't frequent or where the mobs were.   I benefitted greatly from talking to players who "showed me the ropes".  I found 30 or 40 NPCs that weren't on any maps.   If ya like the tribe chart referenced above has had a few more added.

Yes the player base is diverse ...and that's one of the diffculties for the support team.   There's an overwhelming mindset whereby  each player wants time spent on what they want and resents spending time they have no interest in.  So if you don't want to do DMs don't do them... stay with NH till you are satisfied with the % of broken missions.

But I would encourage you to stick with it ....

a)  It gets vastly easier over time.  When i started, i was just as frustrated as you are.  Since DMs started, I have seen many of the same missions 3 or 4 times ... they were easy for me the 1st time because I had everything flagged already.  Once you're at it a few weeks, you will be sailing smoothly I usually finish all 7 in between 30 and 50 minutes.

b)  While its frustrating not to be able to complete everything 100%, in the grand scheme if things, it's really not all that of a big deal.  If you are doing this for the rewards as a neutral, you are matching NH with just 2 missions a day.  id have to go back and look at my old post but even with fame = 100, you'd only need to do 5 missions.  If you got the Goo mission or the Kidinak mission, you doidnt invest any time, if it was kill a super herbie, you didn't attempt that either.  So we're really not "out" anything when we get a broken mission other than "It cuda been more" feeling.

c)  Trust in the fact that over time, the missions will be tweaked  ... I have a reasonable expectation that truly broken ones will be fixed ... hard ones i don't feel strongly either way buti don't have any issue wiyth anyoine having a different poisition either way