IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Casy -- I would be interested in your reasoning on how having "standard (or no) equipment" makes PvP "unbalanced." It would seem to me that it would in fact emphasize real talent in PvP actions vs. simply equipping superior arms, armor and jewels.

Is PvP skill based or equipment based?

Talent, skills, armor, jewels and weapons all work together in a (more or less) balanced matter.

Anyway i wonder why you are so much interested in PvP. If you want to learn more about it i suggest asking someone from your faction to introduce you to it and explain it to you.

I am interested because I am trying to understand the fascination of it. I don't have a faction, or a civilization. I am a confirmed neutral bucking for Ranger status.

My observation on OP battles (group PvP) is that they are largely determined by relative numbers of players on the sides and by certain high-powered in-game equipment. The possibility of introduction of still more high-powered equipment worries me on that count.

I don't PvP at all in game. I don't find it interesting or rewarding. I've looked at all the stanzas and have figured some theoretical ways that they could be used to player advantage in a PvP situation. I probably have missed some, but I have no incentive or desire to learn further.

I do engage in RL consensual full contact PvP (medieval style), and in that, once safety concerns have been met, equipment plays very little role and actual skill is paramount both in single combat and in mass engagements. It seems to me from the stanzas available that something like that should be possible in game, but that is apparently not what is being talked about.

Casy I do not believe I said no or bad equipment, surely it does not all have to be 100% precraft to suit your extravagant tastes ? There are many standard sets that are not too hard to create, that will do quite well. If you have another opinion I simply disagree. I can make "good" armor and weapons and jewels for use but "the best" is not necessary for balance or fun. The fact is not everyone has access to "the best" therefore standard "good" set is my idea.

If you disagree I would not mind a better idea, but I think this is an idea that will encourage many who have previously been hesitant to try, to join and see what it is like.

Oh wait maybe you misunderstood! I simply mean give someone 600 mats so that it verifies that they are not carrying anything at all.... then they can choose from standard items, i am not saying to fight naked or with 300 bulk items.... follow?

Eruv gave us the bloody solution!

Take one of the old pvp islands, which are still there, checked myself before merge.

Introduce an npc in capitals or wherever, who sells 299.99 bulk tp tickets. This will take you to such an island. On the island where you spawn you get a npc who sells gear for free, pvp points, dappers or whatever. This makes sure everyone uses the same stuff. Since tp tickets take bulk, you will not be able to escape with this gear either, without going and getting another 299.99 bulk tp ticket back to mainland!

If I recall there are 5 different islands, so could make one for each grade of gear, for example fine generic gear on one, choice on next etc. That or make it so that the q on the gear will vary. This way you'll limit the levels who will play there, and lvl 50's will get proper pvp as well (as long as no master comes along and nukes without amps, but that would be rude).

This will allow pvpers to pvp without crafting. Not sure how to bring up a meaningful reward from it though, apart from the occasional awesomesauce gear that you can put on npcs. You would probably have to put a stable there, or maybe apartments, so that you won't have to rebuy the awesome gear every time you go to the pvp zones. Not sure if you could add a possibility to have a second apt for homins, since it can't be access to your regular apt, for obvious reasons. I can imagine people could stand to sacrifice a packerslot, but I don't see anyone sacrificing the storage of an apt for pvp. Some storage will be needed on the islands though. Preferably one that only can be accessed on an individual island, so you can create different level or grade-zones.

Gas out.

PvP comes in different forms on this game. OP battles are one form- one I don't really see as pure PvP as it is tainted by politics, numbers etc. There are many 2v2 fights all the way up to 8v8 which take place a fair bit. It is made sure the numbers are even so the outcome of the fight depends entirely on how you fight and react to your opponents.

Having different gear adds another element to this fight. I have nearly 2 full bars of melee stanzas just for pvp. I have designed my weapons to use for different affects. I don't want to be given gear to PvP in- I want to work for it and killing marauders seems a decent way to do so. (From a RP aspect why shouldn't I get rewards from kami/civilisations for killing marauders?)

The PvP point system is in place! Why not use it properly? A PvP island sounds good (it is a really decent idea) but we have a whole world to PvP in- and the tagged system enables this. The devs are already fixing so many things- I don't understand why solutions that require so much effort are necessary when it could be as simple as adding new armour for sale for PvP points. No new armour designs are needed- the NPC armour would work just fine.

I agree with Virg, Drezar and Kigan (on french board). Some variety in rewards will be fine and easy to implement.

Your idea might be fun too, but it opens up another, completely different game. You will need to grind skills up and make tactics for fluffy pvp only and different skills and tactics for real pvp. Of course such a minigame inside ryzom isn't bad. But i doubt it's worth the effort when you look at all those unfixed bugs and unfinished features.

I was attacking the idea of no equipment and very bad equipment mentioned. Just because of what i said above. No need to insult me on that (and it might not have the desired effect to force me to answer directly and elaborately). Actually i'm not using any equipment that is not easy to get at the moment - if you know how to make receipes :-)

Please open up a new topic for every idea if you do not want to blur the original idea.

lol real pvp :) i give up

casy:
i want to make it clear i was only suggesting possible ideas in the mean time , while we wait on these "new" things there ARE things we can do as a community to encourage more pvp. if you want to call it real or not is up to you

the post is about pvp things... i dont feel that i veered off topic that much,
i added two ideas, 1) pvp only armor and 2) arena
in idea 2) i mentioned trading 300 bulk to verify someone is naked, i did not imply that we would be fighting with no or bad gear- i meant no offense, but i do apologize for my assumption, that was out of line

edit:

and virg i happen to disagree with gasket on this one. something so extravagant as pvp islands with all those new rules is just too much work i was proposing the arena idea because it is something we can get started on immediately without any help from the devs. why they implement things or not, what they are busy with, what they will add first... all of that is up to them and we have to respect that they are also busy.

i just wanted to take a stand on something we could DO instead of ask for and talk about and wait on.

edit:

i am not saying i dont agree with virg / drez etc i DO want the system already in place to "work " (be enhanced) i noted that yes some things are "missing" and unfinished , great i want them too to be fixed. i am not trying to say to anyone, lets ignore the other aspect. im not saying you should want someone to give you standard equipment for this "minigame pvp" but it IS a valid option, in the mean time and it really could encourage more players to try joining "real pvp"

thank you all for reading i will not be replying here any longer

shame, I did enjoy reading the information exchange (on whatever level) as this is what drives the idea thought process on.
I think the whole ideas are worthwhile, but just need fine tuning.
Maybe you ought to open a new topic to discuss pro/cons

heheh well try what i refer to as real pvp and you'll see the difference :) Shame your leaving I like hearing people's thoughts on the idea of new pvp items.

All arena-like ideas are terrible by default. Screw them all. PvP being locked up in any sorts of cages and pinfolds like arenas and battlegrounds is a trademark of theme-park games. It has nothing to do with sandbox and freedom. Do i really have to go into some kind of locked room to enjoy what i want to enjoy? It's like running being restricted to gyms and stadiums; like you can't run neither in parks, nor in streets, not even in your backyard. Everyone knows what arenas do to PvP. Basically, they kill it, turning it into competition over rewards, points, titles, ladders, whatever, with farming, leeching, preset matches and cheating of all kinds. Like there is no other way of PvP gameplay, but degrading it down to events and farming. Such a carebearish approach.

Note that all these ideas come from people that had little to none experience in PvP, yet they feel they are competent enough to give out advices and guidelines on how PvP, namely its tagged version, must be handled, treated and rewarded.

Tumbleweed --

In the modern world, PvP is restricted to Arenas: Only criminals indulge in PvP on the streets and in the fields. I admit that the possibility of "innocent bystanders" is greatly reduced in the game, but not entirely.

You complain that such restriction will turn it into "competition over rewards, points, titles, ladders, whatever,..." However, the initial purpose of this thread was to call for more rewards for PvP in game. You ignore the fact that the arena idea was put forth as a way to publicize PvP, not as the only possible venue for it.

I will ignore the comments about " farming, leeching, preset matches and cheating of all kinds," since those are altogether possible with any game system; they are not limited to arena matches.

And yes, I do feel competent to give advice; I have real-world experience and I live in the game. I also can think and speak. You may debate me, or just ignore my advice as you wish; I do not pretend to any coercive authority, nor would I want any.

With respect (really) --

Bittty.

I would like to apologise to the original poster virg who i consider a friend if i may say so. It was not my intent to swing this forum topic in this direction but many posters have very negative ideals and have forced it in this direction, if you would like, i can kindly delete all of my posts far in this topic, move the arena idea to a new post (i have been writing up a new post with some structure, it is not ready yet) i do not like when things get so far off topic from the original.

originally you were calling for new content, or rather finishing current content, tumbleweed mentioned that it is indeed true that one skirt is simply unfinished content, eruv supports finishing this content but in the mean time asked what virg's thoughts were on pvp-only armor or player made arena. virg and a few others replied positively for a few posts thereafter, the idea merits its own forum post if virg does really like the idea, virg can post it since virg has more pull than eruv at this time :P

the later on added pvp arena idea gained some ground by a few player comments and should be moved to a new post, i have since then stopped speaking about the arena IDEA (it is just that, an idea) because i do not want to steal the post but i simply had to reply further.I am too stubborn and stupid to listen to good sense and stop replying, so this will now be messy.
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there IS a difference in DIFFERENT FORMS of PVP tagged PVP is not the ONLY way to PVP , in case anyone missed it, PVP means player versus player it does not mean, i spill your blood and look down on you for your ideas or your opinions because I am better than you, oh little homin who knows nothing of "real" pvp

so this is now a philosophical and not a logical position. real is dependent on the definer and the definition, you have no claim on what real means in excess of my own claim. today we are equals here.

now you can say "standard free tagged pvp anywhere anytime" or whatever. i never disputed that teamed fights go on all over atys i see many of them and have been involved in some, thank you very much gods of pvp. i do not believe that one should ignore a part of the world. but i have a right to participate when and how i want to without being judged. i am not trying to take away attention from your grand lovely real pvp that is so much better than anything else on all of atys besides stinga rum.

Tumbleweed as virg pointed out there is a DIFFERENCE in the arena IDEA and general tagged "real" pvp. I do not stand for having my words misrepresented so I must reply. No one is saying pvp should be restricted just to an arena. on the contrary I only suggested what i did to EXPAND the possibilities. it is YOU who are imposing restrictions by pissing on a perfectly good idea

let me explain something to you, you who think you are better qualified and who judge me. You are full of negative energy and you only see the bad in the idea. i would not care if people like you do not participate in this "sideshow" so take your dark cloud somewhere else. I never said it was a perfect idea. i never said there would not be problems. in everything there is someone who will want to farm or cheat or use and abuse a system for their own selfish gain. do not blame that on me.

To make this idea a bit more clear i will state the following:

this is not to replace "real" pvp
this is not to tell anyone what to do or how to play
this is not to restrict anyone

this is to add another dimension to the world
this is to allow other players who might actually LIKE the idea to help form it (and some do)
this is to invite participation and ideas and helpful comments

and for the record who are you to judge competency of who can or cannot give advice or who has the right to do so? you are just another person, like me. kindly remember that when speaking to anyone else. i do not care what your experience or qualifications are, you do not know mine, do not presume to know me.

And virg, you enjoy being the antagonist to provoke replies anyway, we all know it and in fact, i like that part of your persona because i enjoy it too, i just don't get to let it out as freely as you have :)

I will go head to head with anyone who has something CONSTRUCTIVE to say because dear friends and homins i am a person too and i have a right to my words and my ideas and my opinions. i have a right to try to speak when it think it is something worth doing. you have a right to ignore or disagree with me but no in the current fashion of discussion. let it be. continuing to banter in this way will only result in a bad outcome.

you have your way, i have mine and you know what, i will do BOTH unlike some who will consistently believe their way is better and anyone else's is second rate. i have respect for your fun and i ask that you have respect for entrepreneurism. you have your thoughts i have mine. we do not have to agree. but i will never look down on you for what you like and you should not look down on me for trying to help add content to a world severely lacking.

be my guest and wait around until the devs have time to make your new pvp marauder fancy armors for your real pvp. im sure you will get it, the devs LIKE pvp they WANT pvp they encourage it. why do you think marauder update was high on the list in the last post about whats coming next? why do you think they wanted us to tag up during temple events? you'll get your cake and eat it but don't try to tell me how to be, what to think, what i am qualified to say, or what real is.

if it appears to you that i have taken your replies too personally then you had better consider that it might be partly your fault for presenting your own thoughts and ideas in the forceful, perhaps even brutish manner you have. Yes that's right i said brutish, you do not see me trying to beat down your idea with a stick do you? i try to see the positives in what you say. i try to support your position when i can. can you not do same?

i want you to have your new content, i want anything that will encourage new players. including player generated new content that encourages exposure to pvp. do you clearly understand my position or do i need to write 10 more pages to get my point across?

Sincerely Eruv

Any further problems with anything i say can be handled in an email or a tell, i believe this topic has done some good work and perhaps should now be left alone. Virg, again, if you liked anything here (as you have stated you did like the pvp-only armor idea) i encourage you to make a separate post as i will make another for the arena idea. there is not much left to be gained in this topic in its present form, and i hope it is locked

Eruv you have done nothing wrong topics always sway of course no matter what :) The whole reason I made this topic was to see people's views on it and the more comments the better as hopefully a dev/GM is reading this topic and *crosses fingers* liking some of the ideas. PvP attracts certain types of players- many that have left this game, but hopefully with new implementations making it easier to get gear whilst PvPing these types of players will stick around more.

I may consider remaking this topic as im sure anyone just finding it now will not really want to be reading through all these comments to see where the discussion has led :P

I don't actively PvP (apart from in OP wars) meaning I don't run around tagged.
Despite Virg's efforts to get me involved, I usually find myself watching from the side as a cheerleader.

I'll make this clear from my perspective -
I am intimidated with PvP... I know very little about it, in general I spend little time using the Master Melee I have... Virg will talk to me about this action or that and quite frankly, I have yet to even purchase Aim For Head like actions :S

I only know what I do (and I feel its so little) of PvPing because of the amount of time I do spend with Virg and because he is so passionate he will talk a great deal about it.

I read from one post that someone did not want to PvP because they simply did not find it entertaining. Thats fine.... but I believe that the majority of people who are not active in PvP are not active because they know so little about it.

Issues:
1. Culture of the players
- We are not yet at the stage where the majority run around tagged
- The culture is set from when the player enters Silan and is then welcomed in ML and follows the pace of the masses

2. Lack of information
- There is no PvP manual... you learn because either (a) someone teaches you or (b) you learn from experience because you really WANT to PvP for whatever reason
- We are able to Tag ourselves, but theres so little information to clearly state how to do this (don't expect noobs to know this...) nor what the rewards are and how they can be spent etc....

- Compare this with Ele - There is a Trainer in Silan walking you through - explaining how to set up actions and when you need to upgrade gear and ...

Solution = PvP Trainer in Silan

I did suggest this to Virg and urge him to add it into one of his previous posts, but it was never discussed further. Virg is already an adept PvPer, so I can understand why having a Trainer in Silan would not be of any use to him not other hardcore PvPers.

What would this do? 2 very important things:

1. Inform + Educate
- Just like the other trainers inform and educate I think it is very important to provide a chance for a new player to have a few missions as a beginners manual to PvPing - to make a point of saying that "THIS GAME HAS PVP!" (As an option)

2. Experience
- Enable new players to have a taste at PvPing - What its about - How to go about doing it etc...
- Theres the issue of how to implement such a proper PvP 1v1 experience but...

This is just a very basic skeleton idea... To put my views across.

I feel that this discussion just keeps losing its focus... Solve the issue by feeding its root in order to make it bloom and thrive... not trimming off the brown leaves.