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#217 [de] 

Fyrosfreddy
Heernis
There is one thing you have to bear in mind, as far as I have understood Ryzom and its history:

The definition of "freedom" is determined by those who write, design and validate the lore in the context of role-playing. This has a direct impact on the game through the game mechanics.

"As far as ** I ** have understood"  is the key here, other people see this history differently ... most importantly due to the fact is that for most of it's life Ryzom existed in three separate servers with three separate story lines.  This is the flaw in this vision.  Three seaparte storylines existed with three separate player mindests.  This is the flaw in reasoning

Ich zitiere Tamarea: "Das Rollenspiel bleibt im Mittelpunkt des Spiels und das Gameplay (oder die "Mechanik" des Spiels) muss es durch bestimmte Einschränkungen (wie z.B. die Einschränkungen bei Gilden-Einladungen, das Ruf-System, die Stammeszugehörigkeiten usw.) oder Ergänzungen (wie z.B. die zukünftigen "Anti-Kitin"-Waffen) unterstützen."Tamarea Beitrag

Das bedeutet: Rollenspiel ist gleich Herz/Mittelpunkt und ist gleich "Diktiert die Mechanik".

Fyrosfreddy
Heernis
The OOC players and the RP players. They try to dictate rules to each other.

The reality is here has been mostly between the PvE and the PvE oriented folks.   To my eyes, one side wants it all about PvP .... the other side is not asking for it to be all about PvE, that side sayd PvP to your hearts cointent, just don't force me to participate and don't make us 2nd class citizens with less right to pursue our goals.

Again, I have no horsse in the race here as I don't multi-box ... I also don't give a hoot aout RP.  The assertion that Ryzom is findamentally based on RP is your own vision.  The issue here us ... for 15 years this has never been an issue ... it only became an issue when "these guys are too skilled and we can't win".  Seeking to erase the skill advantage, MB  all of a sudden became a huge problem.  The 1st atatck was to claim these guys are cheating, and when that failed, the RP argument was created.

Vielleicht hast du recht. Wer weiß. man hat einfach unterschiedliche Sichtweisen und das ist auch gut so.

Fyrosfreddy
Heernis
Ryzom is a sandbox, but also and above all a role-playing game. So it is clear that in an MMORPG, role-playing dictates how the mechanics of the game should react. There is no freedom in the sense of "do what you want", but there is freedom in the sense of "you are free to do whatever you want within the framework of the role-play".

Whoaaa above all a RP game ?... said who ?  care to check the home page ?

"Ryzom offers official interactive events in which live responsive NPCs are involved. As varied as they are regular, their progress and outcome depend on your actions: nothing is preordained!"

And ... https://web.stage.ryzom.com/game#freedom

Ja, da stimme ich dir zu. Ich habe ernsthaft gedacht und geglaubt, dass es so ist, aber "Pustekuchen". Es ist nur ein netter Werbeslogan. Die Spielmechanik limitiert die Freiheit wegen Gründen des Rollenspiels. Ganz einfach. Deswegen spreche ich auch von einem "Rahmen".

Fyrosfreddy
Heernis
At first sight it doesn't make any difference. The game mechanics and modern computers make it possible to run several clients at the same time. Roleplayers can play whole families and OOC players see it as an art of playing and a challenge, although it wasn't originally intended for that. There is no limitation by the roleplaying, but only a limitation of 4 simultaneous clients to keep balance, which is more like a stopgap solution.

Wasn't aware that you were in the room at the time when the game was in development.  The use of multi-boxing has been tacitly permitted since the getgo.  It's been argued got and against many times and the decision that came down was to permit it.  original the instructions given was add "/multi" after the exe file name.

Selbst wenn es von Anfang an erlaubt war, ist es nicht dafür kreiert worden, genauso wenig jedes andere MMORPG. Aber gut. Genauso wie man AMD Ryzen Prozessoren als Heizung verwenden kann, kann man jede MMORPG fürs Multiboxing verwenden. Die Franzosen haben's erfunden: https://qarnot.com/radiateur-ordinateur/

Fyrosfreddy
Heernis
Prohibiting alts does not help anything in a system like Ryzom. And allowing it gives the other non-Multiboxers a feeling of inferiority or an in-between is just eyewash. The system should be fundamentally changed. A controlled and official handling of Alts would be more useful.

I can accept this as your Point oif View but you must accpt that this is your PoV ... the statements as to "intent" are not factual but perceived.  And that's OK, everone is entitled to an opinion, but not their owm facts.

Einverstanden. Aber ein Fakt ist, dass jedes MMORPG nicht fürs Multiboxing kreiert wurde, sondern nur eine nicht dafür gedachte Anwendungsmöglichkeit ist, die aus der Notwendigkeit von mehreren Charakteren und einer geringen Spielerbasis entstanden ist.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Heernis (5 лет назад)

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#218 [en] 

Azazor
Magez, le jeu tel que tu le vois doit tout aux joueurs RP. C'est le RP qui fait le gameplay. C'est le RP qui fait les event. C'est le RP qui fait les factions, les OP, tout ce qu'il y a sur ce jeu. Alors un peu plus de respect pour tous ces joueurs que VOUS avez fait partir avec votre façon de jouer complètement déconnectée d'un MMORPG digne de ce nom. Un peu plus de respect pour tout ce qu'ils vous ont apporté et que vous avez patiemment détruit avec votre façon de jouer. C'est pas toi et ta clique qui avait fait quoi que ce soit pour développer ryzom. C'est pas toi et tes alt non. On les attend encore les anim et les dév venus d'arispotle. A ça pour faire pleurer vous êtes là, mais pour mettre la main à la pâte, y'a plus personne.

Vous nous soulez, vous pouvez le comprendre ça? Et vous continuez à saloper ce jeu comme vous l'avez toujours fait, tout ça parce que vous êtes pas fichu d'accepter qu'enfin, pour une fois, on vous retire un truc, qu'on mette un frein sur votre façon de faire. Allez plutôt pourrir un autre jeu, ou ouvrez un autre serveur que vous tiendrez comme des grands avec vos alt et faites plus chier.

J'en ai marre vous pigez ça? Marre de ce jeu qui s'assume pas. Marre des anglais qui nous gavent, pour qui on s'emmerde à traduire et développer des outils de trad alors qu'ils s'en branlent des event. Marre des publications sur le forum qui tardent parce que "faut une version en anglais", alors que les anglais s'en tapent. Marre de ces cons d'arispotle qui depuis la fusion font fuir ceux d'aniro au point que ce jeu perde son âme.

Vous avez gagné, je me casse. Bon courage à ceux qui restent. J'ai eu ma dose de connerie.

eh? this is directed at me? i am trying to find a middle ground for ALL. geez.

RP did nothing for me though, i don't do events, i don't OP, your world doesn't exist in my world.
I don't even have access to supreme mats higher then 220, i cant even kill 260's, i am a 4 masters after 15 years.
how in the world am i bothering you.

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#219 [en] 

Hello,

I'm back after 8 days of total unavailability due to moving, and I discover your many answers to the announcement on the limitation of multiboxing.
I haven't had time to read them yet (it's 1:45 here) but I will do it tonight and come back to communicate with you.

Take care!

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Tamarea
Ryzom Team Manager
(FR / EN / ES)

tamarea@ryzom.com

#220 [en] 

Soleya
J'ai du mal à comprendre pourquoi refuser une solution qui fait un pas vers tout le monde. Pourquoi ne pas laisser les alts, mais les restreindre et les interdire seulement aux activités pour lesquelles il y a un déséquilibre, comme sur les OP par exemple? Qu'est-ce que ca peut vous faire si machin pexe avec ses alts de son coté? Ca n'a derangé personne pendant plus de huit ans et tout à coup "Si vous laissez les alts et bah je m'en vais", meme pas de discussion possible, de compromis à trouver?
Si on retire le désequilibre en les interdisant aux OPs et autre, pourquoi ne pas les laisser faire les quelques activités qui leur reste tranquille de leur coté si ca les amuse? Certains ont-ils un ego tellement grand qu'il ne peuvent meme pas supporter de savoir que contrairement à eux quelqu'un pexe tout seul sans avoir necessairement besoin d'aide de quelqu'un(bien que les mutliboxeurs team souvent avec des joueurs) ?

I agree with that kind of idea. Why not try with a solution that tries to suit the maximum amount of people instead of just fighting between a complete yes or a complete no

#221 [fr] 

Eh bien moi je suis triste.
Triste de voir des joueurs partir, à cause de ça.

Triste de voir qu'au lieu de parler, de tenter de se comprendre, on se déchire.

Triste de voir qu'au lieu d'essayer de trouver une solution qui arrangerait tout le monde (ce qui implique que tout le monde doit faire quelques efforts) chacun reste à essayer de protéger sa petite zone de confort, avec la certitude d'avoir raison.
(Ah ouais, je vais pas me faire des amis en écrivant ça...)

La période de confinement a vu affluer beaucoup d'anciens joueurs, et comme prévu beaucoup vont partir après.
À ceux qui ont décider de partir "définitivement", je voudrais poser une question : en quoi ce débat vous empêche de vous amuser ici, concrètement ?

Fermez ce forum, arrêtez de vous enflammer, de critiquer les autres façons de penser ou de jouer, faites vous un câlin virtuel, et creusez vous la tête pour faire en sorte qu'on joue plus en communauté (pour ceux qui ne le faisaient pas déjà ;) )
Soleya
J'ai du mal à comprendre pourquoi refuser une solution qui fait un pas vers tout le monde. Pourquoi ne pas laisser les alts, mais les restreindre et les interdire seulement aux activités pour lesquelles il y a un déséquilibre, comme sur les OP par exemple? Qu'est-ce que ca peut vous faire si machin pexe avec ses alts de son coté? Ca n'a derangé personne pendant plus de huit ans et tout à coup "Si vous laissez les alts et bah je m'en vais", meme pas de discussion possible, de compromis à trouver?
Si on retire le désequilibre en les interdisant aux OPs et autre, pourquoi ne pas les laisser faire les quelques activités qui leur reste tranquille de leur coté si ca les amuse? Certains ont-ils un ego tellement grand qu'il ne peuvent meme pas supporter de savoir que contrairement à eux quelqu'un pexe tout seul sans avoir necessairement besoin d'aide de quelqu'un(bien que les mutliboxeurs team souvent avec des joueurs) ?

D'autre part, je suis d'accord avec Soleya. Je suis de ceux qui n'utilisent pas d'alt pour pex (j'ai essayé, je n'aime pas), même si je pex plutôt en solitaire. Pour autant, je m'en fiche de ce que font les autres avec leurs alts.

M'enfin, r'viendez, les aminches... :-( Mettez vos ego de coté, et laissez pas un forum ou les opinions des autres définir ce que vous faites ou non !!!

#222 [fr] 

Mais partez !! Partez tous bon sang !!!

Et laissez moi tranquille, seul, sur Atys avec tous mes alts!

Zvorax

PS: Ce post est à pleurer de rire , continuez comme ca, quelle belle image de Ryzom Vraiment.

#223 [en] 

Kigan, I tip my hat off to you -- beautiful summary, and I agree with your conclusions ☺ especially the reminder that the game changes and shifts, due to the weight of the different player mentalities.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

I have seen sudden and dramatic policy changes like this in other contexts (e.g. forum moderation), always followed by a similar amount of drama. Here's a simple list of questions that will point the dev team in the right direction:
  • Do the changes serve a good purpose? Do they address current ailing points?
  • Could the problem be solved in a more elegant way?
  • Impact on current user base: how many people are directly affected, positively OR negatively?
  • Impact on future user base: how many people will be affected?
  • What is the scale of the impact on the users? How dramatic is the change in their day-to-day activities?
I will list my own answers below, with my personal guesses. Wall-of-text warning.

Do the changes serve a good purpose? Do they address current ailing points?

I believe they do. This thread is proof by itself: many, many comments talk about multiboxing and cheating, in the same sentence. At this point, it does not even matter if the players are cheating or not. The perception of unfairness and potential cheating exists and is fairly spread; it concerns most aspects of multibox play (faster leveling, easier boss killing, easier to kill npc bosses etc etc). It goes to the point of saying Ryzom can be "pay2win", a discussion that is 8 years old at least.

I will not address the point regarding "encouraging player interactions", because this change is insufficient in that regard. As long as a player can have one alt, they are already self-sufficient for most of their game time.So, overall, even if the wording of the announcement is incomplete, the change itself is (imho) good.

(My only gripe is that this change would make it more inconvenient for me to juggle materials between guild halls.)

Could the problem be solved in a more elegant way?

Perhaps.


Other variations have been proposed, e.g. to restrict alt armies only from "big fights" (boss mobs and NPCs, OPs etc). It seems to address the most instances where people would perceive unfairness, but it would shift a lot of weight to the enforcement team, to settle the arising disputes -- and believe me, they *will* appear.

And, on the other hand, it would prolong the suffering of those that do have armies. To have a tool and to only be allowed to use it when it does not really matter... yeah.

Impact on current user base: how many people are affected, positively OR negatively?

This is actually the crux of the matter.

Negatively impacted (from a gameplayer perspective, and personal play style) -- only the players relying heavily on multiboxing. There are not too many instances, and some already said they can adjust. As such, this is not a large-scale change affecting hundreds of people; it's just that the reactions are strong, especially since these players have invested a lot of time in their alts (and also reaped the rewards, I would say....)

Positively impacted -- probably the (small?) percentage of players who were actively frustrated by this behavior. Also, passively, those that were only mildly irked by multiboxers, but didn't complain much.

So, to my mind, the overall effect is a somewhat positive improvement in player mood, and at worst it's a zero-sum game. I assume this point is also contentious for some readers ;)

Impact on future user base: how many people will be affected?

Since multiboxing with more than two accounts is not common in Ryzom, I do not think the future impact will be significant.

I do not foresee many new players getting frustrated over not being able to run an alt army. They will see the CoC, shrug and say "oh well, one alt is ok".

On the other hand, since I do not really believe this change will increase inter-player interactions, I do not see much of a positive influence over the future players either. Perhaps only in the sense that alt armies stop being a contentious point.

So, again, just a slight overall benefit. Maybe.

What is the scale of the impact on the users? How dramatic is the change in their day-to-day activities?

The affected players will undoubtedly have to re-learn how to function with reduced firepower. Putting the genie back in the bottle is always difficult, but ultimately I don't think it's a game-breaking experience. Mourning the time sunk in leveling the rest of the characters may be more difficult to process, but, again, I hope people who trained alt armies have already reaped some reward for their effort...

That's it. Sorry for the long post.

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My home is always sweet Yrkanis..

#224 [fr] 

D'après moi, si on décide de limiter le multiboxing à deux persos... autant l'interdire tout court !

Tout le monde est censé jouer de manière responsable et proportionnée (s'il y a dérive, je la trouve dommageable parce que c'est ainsi que nous sont imposées la plupart de nos lois privatives).et, perso, je préfèrerais largement :
 - que vous rétablissiez les catas x 1 (telles qu'elles étaient avant la fusion)... d'après moi tout un pan du jeu est tombé à cause de ça
 - que vous rétablissiez certains aspects qui ont trait à la renommée : les missions de renommée sont devenues trop faciles alors qu'auparavant, je les trouvais mieux proportionnées et réalistes...

pour finir, ryzom, c'est une grande famille...
    l'avantage d'une grande famille c'est que pratiquement tout le monde se connaît ou finit par se connaître (allez voir comment ça se passe chez wow ou les autres et retrouvez vos diatribes perdues à jamais dans la nébuleuse)...
    on n'a pas à être tous d'accord et c'est tant mieux : la famille où tout le monde est d'accord et personne ne se tape sur le coin de la gueule n'existe pas.

#225 [en] 

I wasn't going to comment on this thread however reading Laoviel's post I just had to say this provides an extremely well balanced review of the situation in general and also my own thoughts (GG). I really only have 3 points to add:

- My only strong feeling on this entire matter is that OP wars just are depressing comming up against armies of alts, regardless of whether I am on the loosing or winning side. As Laoviel said, I really don't see the devs managing to police & ban alts from every single OP war.

- Really excited by the prospect of upcoming small team events/activities that Ulu hinted towards.

- In a bid to fix storage issues that people have brought up, I have made a post on the idea thread here.

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#226 [en] 

Right from the beginning this all reminded me a bit of the merge and how so many player said they would (and did) quit the game complaining about their years of hoarding multiple guild halls not to mention the contoversy over wiping of F2P levels.  Sure some did quit but most eventually came back.  Those that continued to play tackled the challenges that the merge created of which there were many but for me the ensuing years were some of the most enjoyable.

My point is simple - no one likes change.

But rest assured we can all adapt and in fact a lot of players lost years of farmed mats and unique items and yet here we are today.

Last edited by Elvanae (5 лет назад)

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#227 Многоязычный 

Four seems like a convenient number. I'm with logic on this one. Should be all or nothing. I have an alt, and started playing this way when I found nobody to team with. Maybe I haven't been around long enough to make friends, don't know but that's the way it is. If you are not going to allow multiboxing then even a single alt should not be allowed. Anything after that is just a silly made up number. This complaining has been going on for years from every which angle. All or none. I honestly don't care how other people play, their money, their choice Good luck!

#228 Многоязычный 

Многоязычный | English | Français
Hello,

I just finished reading the 233 posts.
I'm now going to take some time to analyze the situation before reacting, and will come back to you as soon as possible (but without rushing).

Take care of yourselves!

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Tamarea
Ryzom Team Manager
(FR / EN / ES)

tamarea@ryzom.com

#229 Многоязычный 

here i was thinking of coming back and subbing multiple toons for the kami side!!!

the multiboxing debate has been around for forever, beefie is a noob when it comes to multiboxing, you should all have 4 toons subbed and beat him at his own game :D

As for op wars, implement a guild vs guild only feature where members who have been in the guild for more then 30 days can participate in op wars, most alts will be removed from the war.

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Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, you gain strength.
Through strength, you gain power.
Through power, you gain victory.
Through victory, your chains are broken.
Ma-Duk shall free you.

#230 [en] 

Nitrouss
As for op wars, implement a guild vs guild only feature where members who have been in the guild for more then 30 days can participate in op wars, most alts will be removed from the war.

...for 30 days exactly...

#231 [fr] 

**DEL** Irrevelant
The post was about the history of multi boxing in ryzom.
The same old debate has been around for over 10 years pre server merger.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Nitrouss (4 года назад)

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Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, you gain strength.
Through strength, you gain power.
Through power, you gain victory.
Through victory, your chains are broken.
Ma-Duk shall free you.
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