Deutsch

Just one note on that. In fact, Limai didn't say anything like that - he only said that purely local language events usually don't change the lore, but if they have any reason to do, the ET will not hinder it - which is the main reason Daomei went on worrying. Well, I blame it on Google instead of guessing that it was intented demagoguery on your side. ;)

Hey Salazar, I think we might become friends :-p I like your reaction !

First of all, please note that I don't hold anything against German people, I spent much time with Germans a few years back IRL and had a great time (Baden > all :-p) (if you want, I've got some jokes about Ostfrisisch ppl though). And I think the mentality is way nicer in some places of Germany than in Frenchspeaking countries.

Nevertheless, if you had checked with the French community, you could have known that I shoot on "frenchies" as well when they do this kind of stuff. This has nothing to do with nationaly and what not.

As said before, and I stand my ground, I don't care who gets what. But I care when people shit on themselves because they think they cannot participate. Also, think that I was answering to Daomei as well and not only to you !

And yes, you can blame Google :-D

Typically, this kind of way of doing things brings nothing but bad results. I don't see how this is a good way to communicate when you could actually try to speak with other players. Instead of saying things like "French community blablabla" :-p

Well, thank you, Maximus. ;)

When I did discuss the blaming of the German community here I did so because you gave the impression we have Limai dancing on our strings. I'd like that, actually - would be easier to have the German Community Manager pocketed ( ;) ) than clashing with a horde of French ETs, as most members of the event team seem to be French and yes, we (as well as the English language players, I guess) are often afraid to have our server's history blown away by a huge wave breaking over our heads.

The fact that it's impossible to make the past fit perfectly for all three still creates irritations obviously. I took that far as well from that one French thread I tried to study (how I hate Google Translate! =P). There were complaints about the way Dios Apotheps was played, as obviously for the French community it was a break from the way she was played before the merge. We have the same irritations in turn with characters we knew before the merge, like Cuicco Perinia. I very well understand that people are not happy about those changes. I try to adapt and most of the time have no problems with that. I think I'm pretty easy-going that way. It does happen, though, that I blow a fuse, but like to think that it never happens out of egotism. ;)

To go back to you suggestion to communicate with other players I would say it is not always that easy. There is, for example, that long-running French players event I once tried to find some access to. But everybody was involved in it for quite some time obviously, the Google Translation from the forum enties was fiendish and sometimes hardly understandable, and if everybody is French and the dialogue as fast as lightning you feel like an intruder and worse, as you have to try to find someone to translate for you, which in such a case either slows down the action to almost a standstill or take you out of every possibility to react accordingly and in proper time. That doesn't make the French players very happy, and in turn doesn't make me happy. I just imagine what a terrible job it must be not just to translate for a single player, but also to give an overview about what happened. For the player who has to do this it must be pretty close to purgatory.

Regarding this "Atreus" event and the suggested ways to have Aris and Leanon people involved- I just wonder why it, obviously, didn't find a proper way into the Akenak meetings? I guess that at least the French Akenak know about this thing. Wouldn't it be a much more important point of discussion in Pyr than the question if you wear uniforms or not at the assemblies (which obviously had the Akenak hot-headed for months!)?

There's plenty of room to interact with something without having a direct hand on it. You can just comment on it from a far. Or decide to say you heard about it to Matis people and wonder if this would be an opportunity to add up to the fun...

Sometimes it's fine if a big thing just touch a few people, it gives room to interact in many different ways with an event.

Let's take an example :

- Zorais from Hoi-Cho (I don't whose community it is) become crazy religious extremists. Now you actually learn that as a Matis diplomat. Obviously, you won't go barging in and talk to a zorai official about religion in zorai lands. But then again, you can raise awareness about the issue and try to work fyros officials, via tryker friends, into asking about it to the Matis. This way, everyone can react some way about a story. It also gives the possibility to people who are living the story to feel they're the main protagonists of something, and nobody can steal them that feeling.

---

Now if I want to speak about the German community (and not as the root of all evils) :
(I'll try to explain myself as best as possible, please bear with me and take this as a way to try to get a dialogue going)

One main issue I have with the German community as a whole is that I fear it is way too tightknittted (at least from a foreigner point of view). Everyone knows each other and happily nose in in everyone's story. I feel it is at some point detrimental to everyone. There should be boundaries, or at least visible boundaries between characters.

Let's speak about Atreus for example. As far as I know, only Fyros Patriots actually participate in that story. So it's not even limited to the French community, it's in fact limited to a very small group of people who meet a number of conditions (for instance, being a fyros patriot). And this is what gives strength to that story. It is tailored to interest some people and give them something to hold on to and to feel (hey we're real Patriots, at least we get to work for something in the Desert).

If others are to interact to this story, they have to get to speak with the main actors of it. It's a way of giving power²players.

This kind of thing seems quite impossible for the German Players. For instance, if the same had been played with any german Patriot, there's a high probability that almost every German active player would have come and get a hand on the story. Then, it would have a big mix-up. Since you know your community better than I do, I'll let you think about the consequences it would have had.

It's the fact that this way of playing is common in the German Community that makes some Frenchspeaking ppl think that Germans are the root of all evil. Because this view of gathering for everything kinda obliterates every other way of playing.

Some things should be kept to some players only. It gives room to the ET to create real value. It creates differences between the different peoples (and we need those differences). Also, it gives a sense of value being with people from its own nation. The French community tends to break up a lot easier than the german community.

Also, you see that this way of reuniting everything get kinda destructive with the proportions the rangers series of events took. When I read/heard about that, I was more thinking that Matis should have found/received a story of their own, that they could make evolve the way they wanted and not graft themselves on the story of someone else and try to live through it.

I don't know if I'm clear enough :-p

I feel the day that people will break free a bit more from their community and try to build things up a bit more with the players who share the same gameplay/roleplay values (as being from the same nation), we will actually get some results.

Regarding history, you should realise something :

The ET is made of voluntaries. As time goes on, people come and go (they get older, have kids, get jobs, different hobbies and so on). Some event guys are not there anymore. The past is bound to change at some point. The only way to avoid that as much as possible is sharing all the information you have about that on a common platform. But again, it asks a bit of "free of boundaries" thinking. It also asks a bit of trust from people participating.

As I see it, the ET is there to provide you with a story. Now they are the storytellers and we are the players to play around with these stories. I feel that when we ask something, we should ask for a story that relates to our characters. And that when we ask that, we should give ourselves the possibility to do that in good conditions. That means trying to do a leap of fait and trying to accept the game with the constraints set on by the storyteller.

So we should look to the future and accept that some discrepancies are bound to happen. We should accept that some facts are to be messed up at some point. Even more if in exchange we have something like a story to get by. This way we can help motivate the persons who will actually give us a story to play and not demotivate them by setting them a lot of boundaries they cannot do anything with because it's beyond their reaches.

If we are not ready to trust people and give them a chance to do what they want to propose, then of course it's bound to go down the drain :-p

Anyway *rant is finished*

Well, in fact I did comment about the rumour that Icus left the Akenak to search for a returned Dexton here: http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/126944.

Since Salazar is no longer in politics, and since the political strings between the Fyros and Matis were cut some time ago anyway, I - as his player - felt no need to get him actually involved. Any question about the ways to get into the story have indeed to be asked those who have either characters living there or who want to be part of this or feel the need to get involved. Again, I wonder why it obviously was not a theme at the Akenak Assemblies, where it would fit nicely. It is the first time I hear Akenak or Fyros patriots from the English language and German community are actually involved in this, by the way; at least you give the impression that this is the case.

Regarding the ranger series of events the problem was that both the Akenak as well as the Taliari had agreed to the termite experiments, while both the Circles and the Chamber of Nobles turned it down. The first steps towards that botanical solution were, in fact, taken by the French Zorai community, namely Fey-Lin, and while Salazar (then still member of the Chamber of Nobles) just joined the expedition out of interest for an alternative he - as a Matis - found much more interesting immediately, he jumped on it when it turned out the legacy of the great Almati was involved. We had found or received or just joined a storyline not completely of our own, but one we were pretty excited about. That in the end it was almost hijacked by the Matis Nobles (which are mainly French, as you know) was partly because Fey-Lin had left the game, which had the Zorai loosing their original driving force in that matter. It would take some time to explore how the Matis were pressed into the termites plot (while the Zorai were not). The grafting of that other plot on us strangled all the Matis communities, and while we lived through it, the compromise we reached was not very logical and somewhat of a sellout. We are very grateful, though, for the ETs efforts to save the day.

Regarding the involvement of, say, all the Germans in regional storylines I can't really comment. It obviously is the case in Tryker storylines, but then they are Trykers. What the German Fyros do, I have no idea - I wasn't in the desert in ages. As far as German Matis are concerned I'd like to point out that we are about a handful at best involved in RP. The purely German Matis plots we had ("A Bodoc for Davae" probably was the only one) would have been impossible with, say, two Matis joining and no-one else (I wasn't there, so can't say how many were there, in fact).

Just on a side note: before the merge, the German Matis Assembly was always closed to the public. Only the Royal representatives, the Nobles, and the ambassadors of the other nations were allowed there. I can tell you I was pretty surprised to see everybody walking in at will at the Chamber Assemblies here. ;)

Finally, regarding the ET and past server histories: I'm very aware of all that, and I have high respect for the ETs. In fact, I try to avoid mention pre-merge events when interacting, like Dexton's death at the Cerakos gate on Leanon. I only get them out when some other player hits me hard with a pre-merge history from another server sharply contradicting mine. The one which usually pops up is the burning of Thesos. Now it happens that I'm pretty proud of my part in avoiding that war on Leanon (which we could not have won anyway), so please have some understanding that I don't swallow that bait hook, line and sinker. ;)

Maximus,

thanks for your comments. Yet I think you are missing the point.

The differences between the different communities are well known and have been discussed a couple of times. Your description of the former Leanon roleplay community may be correct in your view, but I feel it overly judgemental.

Indeed that community was ways more cooperative in roleplay among nations, and even factions, and comprised in much more mutual interaction. Insofar it fundamentally differed from the ways the French community had chosen. It was, though, a very lively and attractive part of server activities, participation often being better than nowadays in a larger community. I am well aware that Aniro roleplay was very much different, that it was attractive and satisfying for the participants as well.

It is obvious that such different styles may lead, and already led, to conflicts and clashes which have not been resolved completely or to everybody's satisfaction.

Yet I fail to see that the one way is superior or more valuable compared with the other, while I feel in your writing a somewhat missionary drive to impose the one way onto the other side. And I think, while I confess not to have any easy solution at hand, that such approach is plain wrong.

As to power to players: I feel - in terms of the Atreus event - the imminent risk that important parts of my biography and roleplay are being taken away from me, substantially altered and destroyed without any possibility for me to act on, that is why I opened this thread. It may be pleasant for a handful of players to alter the game for all others, among them not few Fyros patriots, and may give them much power, in fact not that of players, but that of an event guide creating that storyline.

Btw., I am well aware how the ET works, and how difficult it is for them to do their job in a multilanguage environment with different, not seldom conflicting playstyles and traditions. And I agree to much you write about the way we should participate in events. Yet it is important to retain the impression to be playing, and not to be played with. Therefore I consider it legitimate to voice concerns when one feels transgressions or when they are at risk to occur.

Of course there may always be activities remaining in the hands of small groups of players, and they may prove interesting and rewarding, be it for those groups alone, or for the whole of the community. Where they are influencing the gameplay of larger parts of the community, the interests of this larger part have to be taken in account. To voice concerns when one sees the danger of major dissatisfaction, has nothing to do with general mistrust, it is just a part of monitoring what is going on and giving feedback.

ok, got too long once more. Have fun :)

Then again, expressing concerns and feeling that you have to "right" the potential wrongs shows that you do not give the benefit of the doubt to the storycrafters. You don't allow them the freedom to take you from a point A to a point B. It is a profound sign of distrust.

In my view, we are "to be played with". We don't make the rules, the point of a game is to progress in the rules/constraints set by the gamemasters. The whole point of gamelines that touch the core of characters is to confront them to their own image and create conflicts within them, to make them think and try to base themselves on their values while these are in doubt. If the gamemaster does his job well, the values will be kept intact either way, but your character will go through a story and be "played with". It asks to show trust and do an actual leap of faith.

In solo games, we accept this without asking any question. Why should it be different here ?

I'm not saying you cannot challenge what is proposed to you. I say you have to accept to put your character in the balance and accept the rules/constraints set/proposed to you. That's what's rewarding when we play.

I'll relate to another matter : When a character choses a certain way to act, and it seems counterintuitive. Sometimes it's actually done on purpose and there is a background story to back it up. And the thing is that there are 2 ways to react to it :

- A) Live with it and react in context. And wonder why it is so (and try to find answers)
- B) Think it's a mistake from the game master and correct his wrong.

Always choosing B is saying RIP to freedom and creativity.

Maximus,

I see your point, but I disagree. You are speaking about giving power to the players, but then you want to limit power to the few developers and event guide volunteers. That exactly means that players are powerless and solely being played with.

And here is one of the differences to "normal games", much more to solo games from the shelf, I love with Ryzom and hold to be one of the biggest advantages. Salazar and me may violently disagree about a certain event, but we can be sure that our opinions and concerns are being heard if voiced. Surely the decision how to proceed is not with us, and nobody demands such. But we are indeed not passive puppets drawn over the chessboard by omnipotent masters, but part of the game, an active one.

Therefore I do not see it as mistrust when voicing concerns or dissent, but part of the development of the world. In case developments are going too far to me or others, the choice will remain at both sides: either the developments being modified or consequences drawn and being accepted.

Without feedback, the game masters and event designers are left with lonesome decisions which may trigger unwanted consequences. If those consequences are foreseeable, I consider it not only a right, but a duty to make that known.

I see your point.

But then why ask the ET to write anything at all ?
And why not write it in its stead ?
If it's a prerogative you have. If everyone is conservative in the community and not willing to try out things, should everything be kept in check and stay conservative ? It's a real question I ask.

Why even develop some Themes then ?

Also, feedback can be given through acts in game.
In the Atreus story, nothing stands blocking the fyros patriots to go to their emperor and denounce the whole thing askin that Atreus should be wiped out. The message would be pretty clear to the ET I think if that was done.

A good story is not written in advance, you know where you will end up but not how you will end up there. You can see the way the story is going as a form of constant communication between a game master and his players.
In my eyes, the starting pitch can be outrageous and dangerous, it does not mean the story will go overboard.

The way you "disclose" feedback has a real consequence : now the story is spoiled to the players who were participating in it. Why even try to follow anything with interest when the end is written white on black here ? If the stakes are non-existent, why even bother ?

Seriously ?

You take an extreme position here, Maximus, which contains truth but ignores the fact that this sword cuts both ways. If the ET does something which seemingly contradicts the games's laws, the players have every reason to worry, not just their characters. If I play a character which makes an error, that character has to pay for that error, with loss of respect among other characters or loss of social position, with banishment or punishment, with the realisations that the character did bet on the wrong mektoub, whatever. Neither the character, nor the player can undo that error. He/she can't say: that never happened, I start again from whatever point it was I made that error. The character might regain its social status again, might rehabilitate, but that time he/she strolled from the path will become part of the character's history. That, after all, is the whole point in roleplaying: to develop a real character, with all risks and only a very, very tiny safety net - if at all.

The ET, the game masters, on the other hand, have almost (almost, I say) ultimate power: they set the frame and they develop the options for the players to take. The gm has all freedom, but at the same time also has a high responsibility. If the game master bodges, if the gm errs or does something with consequences he/she don't expect and which will have a very negative, destructive effect on the game and the community, he/she is in the same position as the players - there's no way to undo it. But those who pay for it are just the players, while the gm can say for him-/herself: "Oops, better luck next time".

In a way, the collision of the Rangers/termites event and the Matis/Zorai/botanical solution is a perfect, poisonous example for that. One could argue that the introduction of the botanical alternative already was an error (and, in fact, some Rangers did, pointing out that it might weaken the position of the Rangers). On the other hand, it was clear that the French Zorai and some of the Matis were not too happy with the termites right from the start. I guess the BS (=botanical solution) plot was slowed down to make sure the termites could be developed a bit better, as obviously that was the "main plot", while the BS was an optional byway, so to say. But both ways were followed with great excitement by the players according to their tastes. Everybody was happy to have found something to chew on, although it was absolutely clear from the beginning to all players (not to their characters, of course, but to the players) that the Ranger's termites are doomed to success, for a failure would have been an enormous setback for the "newborn" Rangers community.

Then the moment came when the decision was made by a gm to allow termite experiments in Matia. In that moment, any efforts the Matis Noble players (and their characters) made were no longer worth the paper they were written on. Any participation up to that point got a stopper. For the characters in-game it said that the Karan didn't care for his Nobles; it was worse enough that he didn't consult the Nobles, but even worse that he made a contradicting decision without even telling them (or his representatives; we had four different counsellors, I think, and the Royal Herald at the various assemblies, and none of them saw a reason to prevent the moves of the Nobles, then still blessed with ignorance, as obviously all these counsellors were as unaware as the Nobles).

Now, how many possibilities does a Noble have to act from that point on? There was a Ranger player who suggested to us (not to our characters, but to us as players) a palace revolution and the subversion of the Karan, which is hardly an option for Matis. At the same time the only possible explanations were: a) the members of the High Court - at least the known counsellors and probably the Royal Herald - are corrupt (which would also have put a very bad light on the Rangers as well); b) the Karan doesn't care a bit for the opinions of his lower representatives, re. the player Nobles, and doesn't care that they get into trouble as naive and clueless, nor does he care for the international politics in New Matia as far as they are not connected to the Rangers; and c) the Karan is plain stupid and completely unaware of the consequences of his doings. All these options are no options at all. All these options are desastrous to the players of the Matis Nobles, with not the slightest possibility to change it - only to bow deeply and give a show as spineless lickspittles. The gms in that case didn't show us a way to get out of this trouble at that point, and there was no way to undo what already happened.

The option we ended up with, on which the ET, no doubt, worked very hard (and obviously became aware then of the limitations to act at that point) and which tried to save faces of both the Rangers and the Karan while trying to soothe the pretty devastated Nobles was most likely the only way to get out of a mess no player was responsible for, and the Nobles got out of it on crouches, really. And the reason for all this was a decision in the ET not thought through. It was an example where players had to eat up a soup they hadn't ordered in the first place, without the tiniest chance to send it back.

So, by getting back to what you wrote, the players were more than willing to try out things offered, but then were beaten up. Feedback was given by acts in the game (Salazar left the Chamber of Nobles and some Nobles from Avalae were already prepared to take the same step, while other players were close to leaving the game – which is an OOC act, but the worst possible case). So all consequences, all IG communication between player characters and gms at that point were destructive without any option on both sides to get to a really pleasing, smooth, “round” outcome, with the whole thing not being helpful to the Rangers and definitely bad for the Matis on every level. I do understand that no player wants to see something similar happen to his/her fraction, for while our ship did not go down, the story went pretty much over board and only by sheer luck found a floating plank to survive.

*snip*
Are you talking about the spoiler on the Ryzom-Wiki perhaps? http://fr.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Euracus_Cethus If you translate this to English it clearly states: "This character is Atreus, who is none other than Dexton itself." It's a Wiki, it's OOC, and this sentence seems phrased as an absolute fact.

Is it really a wonder Daomei got worried about this, thinking about the possible logical consequences?

About the question "how events should be done": it is a very bad idea to try forcing players to play in a style they do not enjoy. It pretty much always ends with these players leaving the game. This HAS already happened, and some of us have experienced it too often to tolerate it shrugging our shoulders. It's something Ryzom cannot afford, as in my opinion this small game needs every paying player possible to stay alive.

Some RP-events are "written in advance", others are developing all by "themselves" naturally driven by action, reaction and interaction of player-characters. Why not let players themselves choose their own RP-playing-style? What's there to lose? Not everybody enjoys political Assemblies for instance, not everybody likes guild-RP-stories, but some do and these players keep these kinds of RP alive. You aren't forced to participate.

The players or rather the characters from Leanon were the ones who decided to share their IC-knowledge of many events with everyone all by themselves. There has often been a possibility in RP-events for small groups or sometimes even individuals to keep their knowledge to themselves or to share it with only a few others. Actually, some DID keep what they knew a secret. Sometimes one would share news only with characters of their nation, or with befriended guilds, or a whole faction, sometimes only with closest friends.

But many others wanted everyone who was interested to participate in some interesting adventures together. As somehow the majority of knowledge was willingly shared with the public, and led to the best results with many homins getting fired up and having fun together, this became some kind of "typical" RP-"style"; but it happened very naturally according to our character's wishes based on their past and present experiences.

Live and let live?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d43nagVqbU ^^

I've read the thread since the beginning (not really, only since the english part, i can't speak german :p), and most of the (good or not) arguments has been already said. I just wanted to say that the Atreus event was the best event i was able to attend since the merge (and by far). It included some of my favourite NPC, in my favourite country, and the plot was very interesting (dexton, resurrection, and many other things who definitively rang a bell for Geyos, and changed a lot his history :)

But what i've liked most is the way the event took part : fast, unexpected event, without the need to wait for three weeks when you asked to see a NPC ... ;) And sadly, i don't think this kind of event can take part if the event is multilungual, because of the slowness added. And by the way, i'm pretty sure some french akenak (icus or bardor ? don't remind who) spoke of it at the national assembly, only to be silenced by Abycus Zekops. And at least one patriot from dyron searched information about Atreus (we had the opportunity to speak together, though i knew little of him at this time).

Last thing, Zhoi : in french the sentence " Ce personnage est Atreus, qui ne serait autre que Dexton lui-même. " means "This character is Atreus, who WOULD be nothing else than Dexton", not "who IS". Power of the conjugation ;-)

Geyos,

Thanks for your contribution. As to the event, what you describe is what I felt with the two events finishing the Amber Cube series which had begun already at times of Leanon. It is clear that monolingual events are ways easier to manage, open up more opportunities for roleplay and are clearly faster. And as far as you and your friends enjoyed the event, that is absolutely ok and I really welcome that you had fun.

What is not ok, are consequences for the Lore and the rest of the playerhood. Sharükos Dexton is not the property of one fraction of the old servers, on contrary. For me, he played a key role in my biography as a young woman having chosen the Burning Desert as my homeland, with me taking part in the efforts to save his life, excelling in both finding hints about the disease (rank 3) and digging materials for the cure (rank 4), despite my not very high levels and enormous amounts of dp. Rank 1 in digging was occupied by an other stateless neutral tryker living in Pyr, Guardi from The Free Soul. For my services for the sharükos and the empire I have been rewarded in person by him. Later, when we had to retreat into exile, the decision of the Sharükos to defend Pyr until his death allowed the split treck to the scorched corridor to reunite and eventually proceed (no matter that this was not planned that way by the ET, while the death of the sharükos was). He died as a hero not only of his people, but of all hominity retreating from the second great swarming. Choosing to fight to death he showed his confidence in the sharümal and his ability to lead the Fyros people and other desert dwellers during the evacuation, exile, and eventual return.

I do not know what happened during your event, and, to be honest, I am not even curious. What I hope is, that the obscenity of a Dexton revenant has an end without tainting our memories of a great leader of a great homin people. If this memory is defecated on and destroyed beyond a certain extent it would mean the end of my contribution to roleplay.

Thanks for your input, Geyros.

In fact, your posting showed both the weaknesses as well as the strengths of a one-language event.

The strenght is its pace, the "reaction time" of both players and NPCs and so on, and it can help to intensify the connection of players/characters because of the possibility of adaptation of a plot to the mentalities and habits of the players from - fundamentally - one server. It is much easier to make it "personal" on such a basis, to shape the history of players without stirring up the whole world.

The weakness is that it really cannot work the same way when people who don't speak or understand the language join in. But if you keep them out, and the plot is something which will shake the foundations of, say, the Empire, you expel two thirds of Fyros Patriots from the development of their nation. You would not have enjoyed the Atreus event (it's still running, isn't it?) if it would have been available in German only. And if, say, it would lead to a replacement of Lykos, you would be, most likely, straight through the roof for being excluded from something changing the World your character lives in.

So the hard bit is to find a solution to all this. The only way coming to my mind - but which would absorb plenty of ET man-power, I guess - would be a three-streak plot, each of similar importance and a similar level of fun, leading together to a finale of nationwide importance. Each language group would play on one of the streaks (multilingual players, obviously, can choose) which only together would resolve. You can, of course, vary on the required categories - Fyros Patriots, Kamists, Neutrals, Fyros born, all homins, whatever. I can imagine this would work.

But then, I can also imagine it won't work at all. ;)