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To start with Bittty I should mention a Kami guild has attacked another Kami guild however this was eventually put down as a jest for fun. There are two scenarios possible to even up the sides: Kami alliance breaks down or Karavan alliance grows stronger. I don't see a reason I should leave an alliance I have worked hard to build.

Arturia you can have different players within a guild who have different goals. A guild doesn't have to level launcher all together- you can have 1 or 2 players who level it because they want to. As for making outposts a more enjoyable environment we are trying to do that. As a result the recent outposts involved most kami, not all of them. They were a lot more enjoyable. As for a certain player gassing mektoubs untagged and consistently breaking the CoC whilst being told he was and laughing back at us, this somewhat spoilt the battle for me. Except verbal abuse after such a blatant disregard for the rules. Doesn't make the verbal abuse correct of course and I understand your point.

Binarabi as you know very well it was the manner in which you attacked that provoked the response. Please avoid dragging that into this conversation.
Disagree all you want. I don't agree with it either. This post was made primarily to address those people, of which there are many.
One person themselves will not be able to personally shift a faction into change. You have been doing a great job and certainly at the last OP war I attended the Karavan were the most organized I have seen in years. Alas we ran out of ammo, the guards grew in force, and then we wiped. The point in me making this post was to see if there were anymore number 3s who were willing to put in the effort. Yes you yourself personally would have trouble changing the outcome, but a team of people just like you would have a substantial impact. I firmly believe for example 15 launchers on the Karavan side would win several OPs before Kami got their act together and then its game on.Well I was not there for that however people will usually make such comments in the face of being insulted. In terms of insults there is currently one Karavan guild that is not shy of going above and beyond the CoC.I made a post in what I feel to be the main points of concern. I can't cover all topics and you are quite welcome to bring in what you think is the main reason. I don't think this is an issue at all. The fact that we have apparently set the bar too high is just wrong. You make it seem like we should have attempted to take the outposts halfheartedly. Karavan and Kami have always gone back and forth. As I said before I believe the Karavan can easily take back the outposts. You just need others like yourself who are willing to put some effort in. If the fact that we have set the bar because now Karavan actually have to put some effort in to win outposts.. well..
Ah well done the constant undermining of alts being the reason we win. As I have already told you there were alt users on both sides. Yorran and Yakapo are actually very alike in that matter and their efficiency with alts can't be matched. Coming in a close second for me would be the Crests. 2 of the biggest alt users on the Karavan faction side.. Speaking personally for my guild, after Yakapo, people were only using 1 alt or none. Furthermore using alts are a valid tactic in this game so to why you would bring something up where Karavan use alts more (in my opinion) and is a valid game tactic, I have no idea.

Let's be honest here Virg - having an odd 5 alts healing/nuking is a bit over the top - and suspect Elvanae is not saying Kami won just because they have Yaka, but it really is embarrassing to see a homin think they need 5 alts to survive ...

[quote=Binarabi (atys)]
all hell broke lose (loose? Rollocks will tell me)
/quote]

loose

No I never said that is the reason why you won.

You said that you wanted to "see if there were any more number 3's willing to put in the effort" by opening this topic.

And what I was trying to point out is that, myself, I do not feel there is anything I can do on my own to tackle, for example, Yaka's pod. Xtarsia and the one alt... I tried and got them down a couple of times, with Yaka, I could barely do any damage. So that is what I am trying to say to you. I do not want a Ryzom where alts go head on simply because both sides "use" them.

Like I said previously, I have seen changes in the OP battles since the merger. To me, they are not the traditional OP battles I, and many others, used to take part in. What I see now is that players need to be more PvP experienced in order to make a difference at battles. What this is doing is, its leading Ryzom toward a more PvP orientated game with more PvPers and especially with regards to ownership of OPs.

How I see Ryzom is that we have the best of all gameplay and everyone is free to play as they wish. Indeed, PvEers also join in OP battle to do simple things like heal the pod or heal a teammate. Right now though, the biggest push is for Karavan to become more PvP orientated in order for us to stand a chance and make the game "more fun" for you because the Kami have made this transition well which can be clearly seen by how you fight and organise yourself.

Well, speaking from the Karavan perspective, I do not think we have the numbers nor the drive to do this and neither do I think "forcing" us to is the way to go about it because that is how I see it. You take away the OPs and tell us, well if you want them back work hard for it because we have worked hard too so we deserve the rewards - yeah ok you did work hard so reap your rewards - but I think its going beyond you just wanting to make that point, its affecting the player base and gameplay of many people and unfortunately, you will not strike a chord with everyone and many of those "number 3's" will likely give up. Question is will they just give up and ignore OP battles or will they leave the game.
 
So like I said initially... Lack of OP battles is not the main reason why people leave the game. Theres SO many reasons.

what, sloppily? in jest? for something to do? with a child-like spring in our step? drunk?
the odds were clearly against us, we had no chance of winning. the fun is in running around and dying like ants under a well positioned magnifying glass.

The Karavan lacks the leadership to organize and train as the Kami have and hopefully soon they will be wiped from the surface of Atys. Then the Kami can live a peaceful existence free from conflict.

To start with when Kami first took the outposts Yaka did not actually play. However since his return in region and around chat people love to make references to alts. "As a last word. It appear now a days that a faction's success in this game is determined by the amount of alts they can run." This statement says to me that a faction, such as the Kami faction, primarily wins due to alts. If I took it the wrong way then I'm sorry.

Marceline if you would have read my post properly I said that I did not want to delve into that matter here. Binarabi has sent me an in-game mail. Stop trying to create drama and derail this topic please.
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I believe with my generalized talking at the start I didn't make myself very clear so here it is, put very simply:

There are a lot of people who complain that Kami are stronger, due to whatever reason that may be, they think the game is unbalanced and many have quit. I want to make it clear to those people that if they don't want to put any effort into outpost wars then they shouldn't expect to own any outposts. Outposts are a PvP mechanism and it's as simple as that.

For those willing to put in the effort there are many easy solutions. Some do say it is hard, but there is no mountain to climb and it can be done very easily and very quickly. In case you don't believe me I have put a very simple solution to winning an outpost below, concerning level 200 launchers.

It takes around 1 or 2 days to level rifle to level 150. It then takes around a week max to reach level 200 launcher, a bit longer for craft as well. People may say: What use is a level 200 launcher? Firstly a launcher is to be used on healers in a pod and you therefore get an instant hit as they are casting. As for the DPS:

(Some of this may be wrong but you get the general idea)
Level 200 launcher = 1356 on 6 people (every shot)
6x Level 200 launcher = 8136 on 6 people (every shot if they hit the same person)
Assuming, in a perfect world, all launchers hit the same target at the same time, 6 level 200 launchers would kill 6 master easily with every shot fired. Even if only 3 launchers hit the same mage at 4068 damage they would still drop. This shows the sheer damage of launchers, even at level 200, and how they can be used to great affect.

(You may ask why I posted such a thing. I don't want to sound patronizing although unfortunately I probably do. All I want to prove is that the bar is not raised too high and it is still very possible to win.)

The point I am making is that the workload that is required to claim a Kami outpost is well within peoples grasp. If people don't want to put in the effort then fine, but stop complaining and whining about:

• The lack of outpost wars
• The outpost ownership
• The fact the kami are stronger

There are many ways in which to take back the outposts, I have just listed a simple one. We are not trying to force the Karavan to PvP. It is our simple response when people start complaining. I am not trying to address every situation of every player leaving ryzom, just put forward my views on outposts.

my apologies. i'm not attempting to create drama, i'm just a little confused as to what you meant. it's coming across as hugely condescending.. maybe that's just me.
i'm well aware of what your post said, i just completely ignored it :P
i'm also aware that bina has sent an in-game mail, though that's nothing to do with me and i don't know what it says.
a topic like this is always going to be derailed, the variables that people will come up with are innumerable. 

i regret posting on this thread.

No worries, I assumed you were but I will take that back now. There was quite a lot of drama with that attack which I was attempting to avoid.

+1 Elvanae

Just as a disclaimer, I’m pretty new to all this op stuff so forgive me if my observations are way off.. just wanted to throw in my two cents :)

Obviously the guilds with lots of pvp lovers will become known for it and will attract more people who want to learn pvp, and I feel like this is how it gets unbalanced. Kinda like how the rich get richer I guess?

The challenge then for the guilds who don’t have many pvpers is of course that they cannot compete with a guild full of people who love it.

Having said that, trying to win an op fight against people who love and actively train their pvp skills in that case is no different than trying to kill a boss with a low level, poorly coordinated team. It’s obviously not going to work without grinding and training your team’s various skills first, it’s just that your “pvp skill” is not quite as tangible as, say, healing or 2h axe or whatever, and does not show up in the skill tree. But really it’s the same thing, and without practicing pvp that skill will remain low.

However, you can’t really tell people in your guild to stop doing what they like so that they can get better at doing something they hate, in order for the guild to win outposts..

To be honest, I will admit that I don’t know a lot about ops or their resources, but my impression is that they produce mats that are good for pvp. So, if outposts are a pvp mechanism that provides resources that help you get better at pvp, then one -could- argue that saying you want op resources but hate pvp and don’t want to work hard at improving your pvp skills is kind of like saying you want good boss mats but hate boss hunts and don’t want to spend time training to do them effectively. It makes even less sense if the purpose of getting boss mats is to make gear that helps you get better at boss hunts...

So I guess overall, I’m not actually sure why non-pvp guilds really want outposts in the first place (sorry I just have never really been very involved with this stuff before so I could be missing something). Why not just let the silly pvp lovers have them and fight each other to their hearts content?


HOWEVER..


As Elvanae has pointed out, the gloating etc when some of us do try to fight (and lose) is awful, and not a great way to encourage non-pvp lovers to give it a try. Losing sucks to begin with, but when you already know you suck, then lose badly AND the winning team act like aholes about it (sorry), you kinda stop wanting to bother with it.

Maybe the ones doing this are just trying to fuel rage to make us more motivated, and it was a good effort if that's the case, but just know that it's not working like that. It's doing the complete opposite. If you want more people to get into this part of the game it needs to be enjoyable and we need better sportsmanship on both sides.

Great thoughts Tuxi and +1 for the vast majority of them (especially the sportsmanship). As for a little word on why some may be misconstrued as gloating is just simply that sort of banterous attitude is used a fair bit in 2v2 PvP and I think the people don't realize they are upsetting others. Perhaps a little word in a /tell to them may make them aware of their actions. More recently bad attitude has been provoked by rule breaking but this is no excuse.

As for OP mats being useful in non-PvP situations, they do have some uses. However this is mainly in digging supreme (egiros pick) or digging in general (boosted focus gear). As for outside of digging and PvP activities OP mats are not really required. You can do almost every PvE activity without good (or no) gear in this game. Only two examples I can think that actually is significantly helped by a vedice weapon is when solo-ing KPs. Also tekorn weapons do also come in useful when tanking a boss without armour (critical hits causing stuns prevent him from hitting you).

Ah ok, thanks for clarification :)

If a guild is in a position where they want to make use of these things, then they probably have some high-level players that have potential to be great pvpers. It is unfortunate that the only way to get this stuff is via pvp, so if you are a completely non-aggressive person you have no chance of obtaining them.. but that is a different debate. So I guess the issue for the most part just boils down to motivation to learn pvp (I think we all know that already).

So why aren't people motivated?

Personally I've always avoided pvp because I have always found it utterly terrifying. I'm not aggressive, I don't like trash talk and I get intimidated easily. Ask Elv about me right before the first (and only) pvp training session I went to haha.. it was pathetic. I almost ran away at the last second. However the atmosphere was relaxed and friendly, so I forced myself to stay and did have a lot of fun with it and learned a lot once we got going. That made me want to do more of it.

I suspect many other people find pvp intimidating as well, or don't feel the competitive urge or aggression or whatever.. but this relates back to good sportsmanship and just making it a little more fun and approachable for everyone.

Not saying we should ban trash talk in outpost wars, that would be silly... but I think we do agree that a general attitude change (on both sides) might help :)

I find it funny that y'all like to flame me for my alts. I subscribe 4 accounts which is the amount allowed from One IP address. Binarabi this a sad attempt at you trying to toss egg on my face for calling you and your guilds actions out in front of everyone, Yes I don't agree with the decisions you guys made and I said all I could to stop you from backdooring the Souls OP.

No more talk on yaka or his alts from now please. Unless in a friendly manner and relevant to the subject.

I'm sorry Yaka, I used your set up as an example I didn't want this to turn into a debate about your alts.

I used you as an example of the bar that the kami are setting.

There's certain things that, relunctantly, I have worked on. I got my launcher to 220, Im working on the ammo crafting, I've got my 1h + dagger + 2 2H and another on the way, I've got my mixed set + jewls but despite this, I do not feel it is worth trying to attack you let alone thinking to myself, ok if I advance my skills I can do something. 

Ok, I can get other Karas to work with me in launcher but I'm not going to force people to do that when they have so many other skills they are working on.

So this is not to flame you, it is the reality I am faced with. 

Virg's post is provokative and I felt the need to respond to it. In fact, not only is it provokative but I sense some complaints from him too. You cannot put people into the position the Karas are in (with Virg kindly telling us how we could "beat" you...) and not expect retaliations which will be mingled in with defeat at losing OPs and all other sorts of emotions and not expect some to verbally convey these to you. So for me, your complaining about complainers trying to get them to do something in order that they can provide you with the level of competition you are after.

And all I'm saying to you is... a lot of people will be running out of steam with regrds to what they are up against because launchers are not the be all and end all.