ROLEPLAY

*a letter is sent by Zhoi to the Senate in Pyr*

Honored imperial Senators!

I have a warning to voice and politely ask of you to take this warning into consideration.

1. you might remember that Akenak Icus has uttered an insult towards the Matis ("Again, the Matis are irrevelant and completely stupid but it's in (their) nature") during the first Assembly of the Full Akenak and Government of Pyr on Thermis 7th in the first cycle of AtysYear 2572 (OOC: February 24th 2013). All Fyros-authorities, the Senate and even the respectable Sharükos Lykos, have been present and have not commented this incident at all.

Surely they must have overheard this during the tumultuous and loud assembly, however they also chose to stay silent after a note of protest has been written by Filira Salazar Caradini and even after an ultimatum was issued by the Matis Chamber of Nobles with the prospect to stop diplomatic contacts.

Akenak Icus chose to stay silent. All other Fyros-authorities did so as well.
The current consequence is that the Matis will now withdraw their ambassadors and will have the Fyros-ambassadors leave the kingdom. This could have been prevented.

But Silence has made it happen.

2. you know that I have asked the most honorable Sharükos Lykos to please pronounce judgement about the Akenak Icus, Rollocks and Gunbra who were spreading defamatory rumours about my humble self. I have written an open letter on Nivia 27th in the first cycle of 2572 (OOC: March 6th 2013). On Thermis 6th in the second cycle of AtysYear 2572 (OOC: March 14th 2013) I was told that the letter has been forwarded to the honored Emperor.

No reactions are known to me as of yet, and the rumors have of course spread further up until now; even troublemakers have been making use of this to wage conflict between the Fyros people and Zorai people.
I wanted to prevent exactly this from happening by addressing the honored Sharükos.

But silence has made this matter worse.

3. please consider this most of all: if the Emperial authorities should now even go so far as to allow Akenak Icus to lead the next Assembly of the full Akenak in Pyr once again on Thermis 5th in the fourth cycle of 2572 (OOC: April 19th 2013), this might even more be viewed as an ratifying of Akenak Icus' disposition and alignment; his loathing of the Matis people and his contempt towards some features of us Zorai as well that have been made public.

If you let Akenak Icus speak for all of the Akenak at the next Assembly this will definitely be taken as your official approval of Icus' wishes about future relations of the Empire with other nations.

Silence might lead to serious conflicts.

4. An old Zorai-saying goes like this: "Silence can speak louder than words".
The latest developments of political events have already proved this. Did they not?

Please do not ignore the impact of your own silence any longer.
The consequences might get more and more severely.
At one point it might even be too late to make undone what silence has alreday set in motion.

Thank you for reading this. I bow to you in respect,
Zhoi
representative of the Circles of Hoi-Cho

[OOC]
1-I answered to matis, but only in french, i didn't saw that there was an english post ... If someone want to do the traduction ...
2-The french fyros anim is currently unavailable, it might explain why there's no answer. (We are still waiting for answer from sharükos too ^^)
[/OOC]

(OOC: thanks for the information :) Your letter was in fact mentioned at the Assembly of Nobles in Yrkanis (with the queen/Karae being present). But you might want to know that it was seen as a personal letter adressed to Riditch and Zakkk, neither as an official letter to the Royal Court nor to the Chamber of Nobles.
Well, there have been members of the french event-team at assemblies lately, and Limai, the current head of the event-team, speaking English, French and German, has been present and active as well...
Letters or informations by the event-team telling everyone to please have patience, either OOC or IC written from official "NPCs" would have been great; but there weren't - there merely was.... silence.)

[OOC]
This was adressed to Zakkk & Riditch but i asked them to give them to the other nobles'.
This is not a problem of language (i believe most of the french & german anim can speak english too), it is a problem of specific anim ; there's one in charge of a nation, and almost everything directly related to this nation needs his approbation, because you need things to be coherent :)
For things like that, you can check the ceb, there is oftent a couple of anim' logged during the evening (at least on the french one, but i assume it is the same for the others), good information source. But i agree with you that communication ain't a speciality of ryzom team :p
[/OOC]

[OOC]
Unfortunately, while Riditch and Zakkk mentioned your letter during our discussion at the Chamber, and although its content most likely was known to most of the French Matis there (which were the majority that evening), no one actually produced it and we only got a rough overview of what it said and, as Zhoi said, did understand as a more or less private letter. So the little we knew was taken into the decision of our recommendation to the Court, as the Karae was present and proposed to consult the Karan on that matter. Like the other things mentioned by you, Icus, and by Zhoi, it's out of our hands by now.

Having said that, I try to publish all relevant texts in English as well as in German (which obviously is my language) to reach all concerned. But unfortunately I'm unable to do the same in French and have to relay on either "the kindness of strangers" to carry it to the Aniro forums, or on the ability of most French players to read English as well (rather than German, I guess) and to hope it finds all addressees. But it's clear that while we all work hard on "crossing borders" regarding the language walls in game, we sometimes still hit that wall very hard in the forums, with consequences not neccessarily desired by all concerned.
[/OOC]

(OOC: that evening at Yrkanis even the Nobles from Avalae mentioned that they would have viewed Icus' letter as an official letter to the Chamber of Nobles if he had adressed it to Erminantius, the designated ambassador.

Still my personal advice would be to take the trouble to write an open letter in English too whenever you want to be on the safe side, as you are well-versed in English, Icus. It will just take a little bit of your time. You have already experienced what refusing to do so can lead to...)

[OOC]
Hey, from what I followed, there were some "misdoings" in what the Matis did.
First of all, Icus said that in an Assembly of the Akenak. As you could see on the French forum, some of the Frenchspeaking nobles thought he said that during a matis assembly, which is already wrong.
Then, also, Icus never received and contact nor any letter prior the official one. Not even a OOC contact.
He just discovered what was happening with the first letter of Timna.

Imo, the French Matis were just out for blood and looking for a reason to start a war, and just built of the feeling of aggresion caused by Icus' comment.

Just realise the violence of the reaction. Icus says a demeaning comment towards Matis in his assembly... Then a few weeks letter, he basically receives a call to war from the Matis.

Just remember, the letter said he HAD to come and say sorry in the Kingdom, and then stay with matis teachers to learn about all of matis customs. And if he did not comply, the Matis would cast the fyros ambassadors away, with the implied meaning that it would create a war between Matis and Fyros.

The next reaction of Icus was to try to get contact with the Matis Nobles. And he chose two famous partisans of the Peace. To try to obtain some kind of friendly arrangement with them. And hoping they would understand he was trying to go for peace instead of war, without losing his honor. And that they would go for his proposition with the other nobles.

It was actually a pretty intelligent move from him to do that. Now I think the Matis did not understand what he was meaning, for some sad (ou voluntary ?) reason.

Now, as I see it. They basically did not answer his call for peace. Well, I now know that the Karae will speak about it to the Karan :-p thanks to Salazar :D

As an exterior spectator of the affair, I think the Matis never respected any rules of diplomacy in that affair.
And I can totally understand that Icus feels wrongly treated by everyone as a player.
Especially since he was literally attacked from every part for doing something that was totaly normal and accepted on Aniro (When my toon was a Matis character, it was pretty common to demean him because he was a Tryker. The same way, the Matis alwas made jokes about other peoples..) And that at no point the first answer of the Matis was a fair one.

Just try to understand his position at some point.
Plus, he's not the only one to not look at the English forum, I do that pretty rarely.

This situation looks more like shooting a mouse with a bazooka than anything else ^^
Now sure, from a IC point of view, it's interesting to follow, but it still looks like a bold ploy from Matis nobles to launch a war for almost nothing.
[/OOC]

[OOC]
I disagree with most you said, Maximus, for various reasons - although I can *not* look up the French forum, as I don't read or speak French, and the translators for that produce pretty confusing stuff.

However, while Icus was not contacted personally, he was both IG and OOC pretty aware of the situation, before the letter to the Akenak reached its destination. First, my own letter to the Chamber of Nobles "leaked through": http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/16516/1# 1

OOC, Icus took note of that: http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/16556/1

Then, when the whole situation stirred up, there was a series of open letters (apart from lots of chatter all over Atys) regarding not least the situation provoked with the Matis in which both Icus and me took position: http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/16524/
Please note that in his open, public letter Icus wrote, "I think we should burn the Kingdom and kill every subject of the crazy Stevano. This is what my guildmate and I were doing for dozens years now, and will continue to do. If any subject want apologies, me and my Punnelyx are ready to give them some."

I would also like to point out that Salazar described the happenings at Pyr publicly at the local Assemblys of the Nobles an both Davae and Natae (I'm sorry if there was no Fyros Ambassador there to take note, although Fyros were there usually), with Nobles from Avalae attending.

So, please don't suggest the Fyros didn't know what's coming. Also - please excuse - it's pretty naive to believe diplomacy ends and war begins with the casting of the ambassadors (which has not happened yet). ;)

So, "misdoings" of the Matis? I think not. I rather like to think that Icus blew a Fyros horn, and the Matis now play the clavichord. ^^


I have to say this I did not understand completely. The first part, of course, but not the "thanks to Salazar" ...
[OOC]

[OOC]
Actually, I think that you misunderstood me or that I was not specifically clear enough.
Yes, Icus was aware that what he said shocked some people.
And yet, he was not made aware of what the Matis were preparing.
He discovered the letter when Timna posted it.
That is what I meant when I was speaking about that.

Furthermore, he did answer to it, by contacting Nobles that would be more enclined to keep the peace afloat. But they also did not really react to it.

So the whole process of the affair was completely biased.
My point was not about the fact that there is a difference between what Aniro players did and others.
My point was that how the Matis acted was not totally fair (which is fine IC - but not so fine OOC).

When I said that I now knew the Karae would speak about to the Karan, I meant that I do not follow the King's Council in person. So I basically do not really know what happens there. I'm basing my reaction on what Icus told me and what I read from the letters.

That is also why I said "As an exterior spectator". I'm third party here. And I said : IC rules of diplomacy were broken, and OOC rules of communication were broken as well.

So, my whole post was about the "official" "Matis-Icus" affair and its proceeding.
It looks more like a witchhunt than anything else.
Basically, everyone is telling him it's his fault for not following what the Matis did alone, while nobody actually spoke to him about it.

I hope I wrote more clearly this time.

Just so you get an idea of the state of mind of Icus player :

http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/112952

That's what he said to the French community. (Hereunder the translation)
(The topic is about the Matis-Icus affair and it shows that nobody thinks the same thing. For example, as I said earlier, Riditch thought the insult was made during a King's Council...) (It's OOC and in the general section of the forum)

So now you know. I don't see why we should attack a player on the basis of what others did against him. Especially when he's actually playing along...

I said the matis broke rules of diplomacy. Not that this kind of diplomacy would end in war. I said it looked like a very *subtle* (irony) ploy to get to war. They did not even try to take it through discussion. They just sent the IC letter out of the blue.

And it depends of how you see it. If you aim to obtain a war, sure what Icus did is your bread and butter.
But yet, it was easy.

It reminds me how the Matis launched the war in LLDE on Aniro.
Basically, a treator fyros senator came into the Kingdom, and the Fyros were hunting for him.
Since the Fyros came with weapons into the land, the Matis did not find anything more clever than sending an ultimatum of war with unacceptable demands to the Fyros, which could not accept those for any reason.
(It's a bit the same ploy used with Icus. He says something, then a letter is sent with unacceptable demands for any fair player. None of the Matis would accept that).

IC, it's interesting, but I think that if we look at it from an OOC perspective, we see that the reason are a little bit thin (very big euphemism), don't you think so ? But it is another debate :-p.

[/OOC]

[OOC]
Maximus, first I have to say that I see the whole matter strictly IC, not OOC. I would find it regrettable if Icus takes it personally, for it should not be seen personally. But Icus did - and I said that before - present a situation which was just perfect for RP, and for RP in a wide range at that, for it potentially involves all political players, moves the Assemblies and Chambers and Circles, it moves player characters which are neutral, biased, rassistic, peacful, agressive ...

I sometimes have the feeling that the old server players did avoid contact to the players of the other old servers (apart from the Trykers). But we are on one server now. You don't rule a country from one town. None of us political players still have the power they had before, we have to come to multilingual arrangements, and each of us should strive to that, to get all together. That's one of the reasons I hang around in the English forum as well as in the German one. The old Leanon players, to my observation, more or less gave up strictly German speaking events completely, to make sure to involve as many players as possible. But I, in turn, shy away from events like the recent Aniro arranged one about some was posted "posthumously" on the Aris forums. I recently stumbled over one of the get-togethers in Matia, but after realising that almost everybody was French, with Daomei (who speaks French) the exception, I let them pass more or less without comment, as I felt it would take too much stress on someone willing to translate for just one single player, me, although I would have loved to take part in that. But at the same time it was a situation I feel we should not have, a situation where only one of the servers is involved, but the storyline and outcome involves more or less all of Atys.

To return to the Fyros/Matis situation, the line of events led to talk and discussion between representants of all three Matis villages, as well as between player characters on all servers. Is that not a good thing? Just on Leanon, I would have handled my part differently - I would have taken a standing and had a debate with (if necessary) the whole of the Akenak on the spot, and I can promise you I would have been able to press a reaction from Lycus on the same evening, publicly - one way or the other. But here the intention was to take others with me, to involve the Aris and Aniro Matis players as well, just for the fun of it, and to have us all playing *together*. Same with the water road, where we had the chance to grab Luth and take him in, and I'm pretty sure he not took that home to the Lakelands quietly, but in turn involved the Aris and Aniro players. Zhoi took home the problems she had the same evening Icus insulted the Matis and stirred up all of Zorai. We all have to play together, isn't that wonderful? So although Icus was catalyst to all this unwillingly, I'm more than grateful - as a player - that he presented that chance.

So from the moment that happened on I wondered what - from a political point of view - could happen next, especially as Icus offered his insult in public, in the presence of the Emperor and many international guests, and to a Matis Noble. It was clear that a public insult in turn has to be followed by a public apology. It was also clear that, as a Matis, the weaponry I have to use is of a different kind to the weaponry a Fyros, a Tryker, a Zorai uses. It wasn't a private statement by Fyros citizen Icus, but a public statement by Akenak Icus, at an Assembly of the Akenak. So the stage to use was the stage the Matis feel quite at home at, the political one, where also the incident took place. The usual procedure is to summon the ambassador, to hand him a complaint and to wait for a reaction - which, in turn, usually follows the same way, via ambassador. That I would suggest that way was already clear from my note to the Chamber, which you know. Salazar duely suggested that procedure to the Chamber of Nobles, which agreed and in turn decided on variations of content of that note. By posting the letter on all three forums, all three servers kept informed about the proceedings. It can be taken as granted that the letter was handed to the ambassador and delivered to the Akenak. I don't see this as "breaking the rule of diplomacy". To my mind it would rather be against any rule of diplomacy to, say, make a public declaration that Fyros is a pigsty, Zorai a nuthouse, Trykoth a den of thieves, or Matia a country of inbreds (to take all nations in). ;) But I'd like to know what the proper way of diplomacy to you would have been?

What I don't understand is that Riditch could have thought the insult took place at a local Matis assembly. In my letter to the Chamber of Nobles, I clearly stated, "... as it is already known to those members of the assembly who have attended the meeting of the Akenak in Pyr recently ...". This I did repeat at the local assemblies as well as in the Chamber of Nobles in Yrkanis.

By the way, I heartily agree with Icus on his suggestion, translated by you, and definitely make a plea to everybody to follow these rules: "Try to communicate in your nation! You send a letter/create an event/whatever. Don't let it live alone, accompany it." I hardly can speak for everybody involved, but as far as I'm concerned I try to do so, and while I can't post on the French forums for lack of ability to speak or write French, I tried hard to involve the Nobles in every detail regarding this matter, beginning with my note sent to the Chamber, over my personal visit to the Assembly in Natae also visited by Nobles from Avalae, the extraodinary meeting of the Nobles of all villages which took place, and to the regular meeting of the Chamber of Nobles in Yrkanis.

One last thing: I never attacked Icus as a player, as you implied. I did attack him as a character, which is a very different animal. I have quite some respect for him as a player, as he makes a convincing Fyros - and I hope I make a convincing Matis.
[OOC]

(OOC: thanks for sharing your thoughts, Maximus :) I am especially grateful for your kind translation of Icus' statement. It might not change anything IC at this point, but at least non-French-speaking players can now understand OOC what is going on :) Also Icus' letter was made known to them only after the Assembly in Yrkanis, thanks to Minou http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/112820 At the Assembly itself the letter to Riditch and Zakkk was not quoted nor translated, merely very vaguely mentioned.

We all have hoped for combined forums since the day the servers were merged! If it is true that the French community does not often take a look at the English forums then in the future some of us will consider posting our open letters in all three community-forums, even if we can only do so in English in the French ones of course. I will do so with this letter to the Senate at once :)

As a personal note I want to point out that - in my personal opinion - Icus as a character acted fully understandable. The Matis clearly provoced him to do something that they thought of as "should be humiliating for a Fyros like him". It is to be forseen that he would comply to that only if the Sharükos personally ordered him to do so. And it is completely logical to ask "friends" or neutrals to help with the negotiation. Well, in this case it would have been better to choose different advocates or an open letter adressed to every noble (and in English too), but nobody can forsee the future. We all can now learn from this.

On the other hand I think that the Matis were also not wrong to handle this matter as a political one that affects all diplomacy (ambassadors), instead of a personal one meant by Icus alone; since other officials definitely should have reacted to the affair. However the designated ambassadors Erminantius and Arrlon (even though he was the only one to react at all repeatedly to this, notwithstanding that the player had a lot of work to do with overtime hours in his real life) did not negotiate with each other, none of the Senate officially voiced any advice nor even a personal opinion. Neither while it was happening at the Assembly in Pyr (February 24th 2013) nor all the long time since during the written conversations.

You might be pleased to hear that the Karae Miela Fera di Torani herself voted for a "second chance" for Icus and to "not let the diplomacy end". Still she said that the one who would decide about things like that in the end has to be the Karan, not her. But she did allow a voting amongst the representatives to be made by all Nobles present according to Kesslers wishes (only one from Natae, one from Davae, ten from Avalae), and she did not intervene with the election-process, neither did the King's advisor Kellen Codgan...

At that evening translators had a lot of trouble and not everything spoken in French was translated to English and vice versa (all German-speaking players present chose to speak English). And there was a LOT of stuff spoken in French. I for my part for instance was very surprised to find out that the vote in favor of an "ultimatum" in reality meant for the ambassadors to be withdrawn, since I had not understood it this way at all.

I also want to add that my talkative character hinted at Icus being unable to enter Yrkanis without fighting the guards, so a neutral place for a meeting with him was actually considered by the Nobles for a short while. My mingling character also mumbled that Icus might want a war to happen with the Matis he hates and so a decision to stop the talking would only be to his liking which a few others present agreed with. Just saying ;) )

[OOC]
You see? It's actually Zhoi who wants a war between Fyros and Matis. ;)
[/OOC]

[OOC]
It's a pity that Stevano (and Lykos, of course) won't allow it :)
We won't be able to see that zhoi is actually working for marauders :-P
[/OOC]

(ooc: The player of Irfidel wonders why everybody uses ooc tags when most of the things said are perfectly viable in-character)

[OOC : why don't you all go talking OOC on the (OOC) Roleplay part fo this forum and keep this for roleplaying posts only ?

Edit : ah sorry it's Events (OOC) but well, too much OOC is too much]