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#42 Added by Meagon 1 decade ago [en]

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There is loss of logic in your arguments. Increasing the cat production rate would not at all affect you if you are getting your cats from crafting them only. You could still craft away and enjoy what you do.

Why should I have consequences when I don't like the occupations. They didn't even exist until that long ago. Sure I don't get all those weird boosts and I don't get potions, but why should that mean I don't get cats? I'm not a PvP crazed homin as Entendu said, I've detached a bit from them and sure I love taking part in the occasional battle but you won't see my guild ever attacking an outpost. I enjoy helping people and seeing them get what they want and need.

Until people start popping up that are obsessed with the occupations like you I don't see how Ari can even supply cats for a fraction of the population. Because cats are so scarce if people do craft them they keep them to theirselves or maybe share with their guild. I don't know I've never seen/heard of anybody crafting them to a large extent

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Meagy :)
Spirit of Atys
High Officer of Spiritus Artificis
Never argue with an idiot; they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

#43 Added by Jarnys 1 decade ago [en]

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Ulykus

I agree... and kinchers don't hunt mektoubs :-)

You noticed it! But there is one exception to this: one with a homin mounted on top ;-)

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#44 Added by Soloreaper 1 decade ago [en]

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I read a lot of this post until it became the same points going backwards and forwards.

I feel a change is necessary, as the original intention was to get rid of the surplus in the game world. For starters the production needs to be switched around, more higher lvl cats than lower lvl cats, because gaining levels at 0-50 is much quicker than 200-250.

and then maybe a slight increase...

#45 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en]

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Soloreaper

I feel a change is necessary, as the original intention was to get rid of the surplus in the game world. For starters the production needs to be switched around, more higher lvl cats than lower lvl cats, because gaining levels at 0-50 is much quicker than 200-250.

Please consider that there are only 4 outposts producing q50 catalyzers (as far as they are producing cats at all). Lvl 50 is reached soon, anyway, even without cats.

On the other hand, all f2p players can use only q50-q150 cats due to the level cap. And many players quit or reduce playtime before reaching lvl 150 oder even lvl 200. So the overall demand for cats below level 200 may exceed that for the higher levels.

and then maybe a slight increase...

I still doubt that this is the right way, much more that a slight increase will be felt at all outside the OP holding guilds. First reaction on a slight or even medium increase will be servicing the demand of guild members of OP holding guilds. Next step will be refilling or building up reserves for the case of OP loss. After that, demand of allied guilds, be it for members or restacking reserves, may be serviced. Only after all that, the general public may take advantage - or not. Some guilds may also decide to produce more mats once cats output has been raised in case the throttled cat production is servicing their demand.

I know that on Leanon at least 2, probably 3 lvl 250 outposts do not produce cats at all. The holders are battle hardened guilds of long term players who long leveled out all skills of their need, several of them before cats existed in the game. Why should they sacrifice valuable tekorn, vedice, maga etc. just for gifting cats to "spoiled brats"?

That's why I favor methods empowering all interested homins, not just OP holders. I think that cat pricing in faction points above q100 is wrong and prohibitive. q50 to q250 have a per cat cost in civ fp of 1,2,4,8,17, in cult fp even 2,4,8,16,33 which is kind of quadratic increase. This is unreasonable and results in about 17,000 civ fp for a single stack of catalyzers, meaning 8 times ca touring the camps for a neutral player and about two and a half for a citizen. A pricing of 1,2,3,4,5 for civ fp (dunno about cult fp, any suggestion?) would seem fair to me, amountig in 440 q250 cats per camp run for a neutral and 1100 for a citizen. That is still not much for 45-90minutes of touring all camps in a country.

My general objection of simply raising OP production of cats is that I obviously everybody expects to be given cats for free. Nobody so far told how much of which valuables she would be willing to give in exchange for a stack of cats of a given quality to the producers of cats no matter whether they be OP holders, crystal crafters, camp runners, mission mat diggers, or PvPists. Only then one could judge whether overall cat production is too low.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#46 Added by Zyeir 1 decade ago [en]

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Daomei, the situation in leanon is very different than that of arispotle. Arispotle has a larger population with a lot of transient players. You should pop into silan someday and see how active it is. I doubt any guild on arispotle has turned cat production off. The fact of the matter is that a guild can no longer supply the needs of their guild by holding one op. If this continues, eventually only a few large guilds will remain.

#47 Added by Soloreaper 1 decade ago [en]

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Zyeir

Daomei, the situation in leanon is very different than that of arispotle. Arispotle has a larger population with a lot of transient players. You should pop into silan someday and see how active it is. I doubt any guild on arispotle has turned cat production off. The fact of the matter is that a guild can no longer supply the needs of their guild by holding one op. If this continues, eventually only a few large guilds will remain.

This is spot on, it has to be taken up at a server level, it wont be the same on each server.

#48 Added by Waylanda(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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Faa

I cannot give a definite opinion if the current cats production is enough or not. Not playing like I used to play years ago to have first hand data. But if people complain about it, there must be some problem. Usually in Ryzom an issue gets to the forums long after part of the population feel its consequences.
But I did vote "other" because the limited number of OPs that didn't change for the last how many? 8 years? encourage political ownership instead of guild content. More OPs with current cats spawn (or at least less cats spawn than in the past) would allow guilds to chose their real allies not be forced to work only as big alliances. It may enocurage smaller scale pvp as well.
More OPs of q50-150 at surface would encourage newcomers to form new guilds. OPs mean a fantastic guild content and they have a psychological importance that supercedes by far cats and mats one. An OP is a guild "home". Strong hard to attack/defend OPs in the q250 areas or in the PR would allow older guilds to make a point of honour in keeping them.

In short: keep rate low but increase OPs numbers.

Yes this is very much the case, i can say that Soul viewed its outpost in FF as "home" even though it was rocked by war countless times it has a feel of worth to us even now regardless of its cat production of which most was given away to other guilds anyway.

More level 50 to 150's would encourage more guilds to get involved and be created though if you included lala's suggestion in some form or another about maintaining outposts through either resources, missions or a combination would reduce the number of outposts a guild can hold this would also encourage more guilds to get involved, alliances being formed between guilds to help each other hold them etc.

A nice mix would be encourage guild growth, guild activity and politic's

P.S Nice to see you again Faa btw ;)

#49 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en]

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Soloreaper

Zyeir
Daomei, the situation in leanon is very different than that of arispotle. Arispotle has a larger population with a lot of transient players. You should pop into silan someday and see how active it is...
This is spot on, it has to be taken up at a server level, it wont be the same on each server.

I guess I know the situation on Arispotle somewhat better than you think as I have toons there as well as on Aniro. I agree that the shortage is felt harder with the larger population, and I do not know whether or not there are technical reasons to keep the three shards identical. If not, an adjustment according to the rate of usage would make sense.

I doubt, though, that such an adjustment, even if it would not mean reducing cat production on Leanon accordingly, would suffice to dampen the complaints. The problem I see is that roughly 9 mths ago, with patch 1.12, the devs not only throttled cat production of the outposts, but simultaneously offered a new path of obtaining cats, open to everybody, thus linearly scaling with server population. Same goes, btw., with other methods of buying cats by faction points, at least for qualities 50 and 100, and to some extent 150. And a transient population mainly comprising of free to play accounts does not need the higher qualities so dearly or even doesn't need them at all.

As long as any solution other than raising op output is met with anything from flat refusal over mockery to outright astonishment about the exotic habit of using what the devs have implemented, I fail to see a real shortage of cats, rather a shortage of cats for free. My question about what effort would be considered adequate in return for a stack of cats of given quality remains unanswered.

Btw., I agree to Bittymacod that a more flexible drill configuration would be a good thing, as probably are more active outposts of lower levels. This is independant from production rate considerations.

Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#50 Added by Zyeir 1 decade ago [en]

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Daomei,

Your solution to use the occupations to make catalysts does not make any sense as stated previously. You are better off not making cats at all, and instead using the time to level the skill, in fact if you take into account the timer required to grind occupations to a point of producing q250 cats, it makes no sense at all. I really do not understand why you keep saying that occupations are a real alternative when they are clearly not. You keep bringing it up but the math does not pan out. If you want to refute this, please post a very detailed analysis of grind times on occupations for production of cats, as well as an estimate of the timer required to grind the occupation levels to mastery.

Furthermore your claim that OP cats are "free" is nonsense. Aside from the dapper cost, it take a good amount of coordination and resources in the form of time, weapons, and mastery of combat skills by many players to take and hold an outpost. I am sorry that on aniro new guilds have no chance at attaining one, but that should not be a reason to punish the rest of the population by making outposts irrelevant.

#51 Added by Waylanda(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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I'm sure the folks on Anrio are pretty much the same as folks on any server in any game. Open a dialog, create alliances and indulge in diplomacy and the doors to new ventures begin to open.

All things can be achieve given the right mix of time, effort and honesty

#52 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en]

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Zyeir

Daomei,
Your solution to use the occupations to make catalysts does not make any sense as stated previously. You are better off not making cats at all, and instead using the time to level the skill, in fact if you take into account the timer required to grind occupations to a point of producing q250 cats, it makes no sense at all.

I really do not understand why you keep saying that occupations are a real alternative when they are clearly not. You keep bringing it up but the math does not pan out. If you want to refute this, please post a very detailed analysis of grind times on occupations for production of cats, as well as an estimate of the timer required to grind the occupation levels to mastery.

I beg your pardon, but you are talking rubbish about something you obviously haven't tried and don't understand. I have all basic occupations complete (grade 6) which took me - as a beginner who still made many mistakes and hadn't all recipes at 100% - bit more than 3 mths of time and always small portions of my playtime (Granted, finishing all kitin lair occupations was hard at times, but was thrill and fun as well). Using 100% recipes, it takes 39 days to complete an occupation from start to grade 6 (needed for q250 cats), and you can do 3 occupations at a time without any hassle, 4 with a bit of changing every day, and at maximum4.5 on average (one day 4, next day 5, or one day 6, next day 3).

Average time to obtain a set (2x4 certs) for producing occupation products takes between 6 and 15 minutes for the non kitin lair occupations. For kitin lair occupations, it widely differs between around 5 minutes for medic, and up to half an hour for larvester (which is worst of all and I don't recommend to use it for cat production at all). All that is without optimizations such as acting in bigger teams, using mount for magnetic cartographer etc. which can bring down production time further. Note that kitin lair products count double for cat production, you need only 9 instead of 18 as a component to obtain nexus crystals.

I estimate that cat production takes about 10% of my overall playtime when I am doing it alongside my normal play which involves much digging, crafting, training of melee and magic, boss hunts, and roleplay. That way I get an average of 1000-1800 cats (q250) a day. I am fine with under normal conditions. At times when I am doing tasks involving insatiable hunger for cats (such as when I finished light armor doing up to 15 lvls a day) I have to increase effort, involving my alt etc., and even continue without when running out of cats.

Furthermore your claim that OP cats are "free" is nonsense. Aside from the dapper cost, it take a good amount of coordination and resources in the form of time, weapons, and mastery of combat skills by many players to take and hold an outpost. I am sorry that on aniro new guilds have no chance at attaining one, but that should not be a reason to punish the rest of the population by making outposts irrelevant.

You misunderstood me. As far as my way of expressing myself is responsible, I apologize. I know very well, and already mentioned before, that winning and holding an op is quite a lot of effort, and that it is fully ok that the holders get a reward in cats and mats. When I am talking about cats for free that refers to the situation before patch 1.12 when cats were available so abundantly that they were useful but worthless and given to anybody for free.

I am in no way opposed to outposts contributing to cats supply, only I am opposed to a monopoly of outpost holders as well as to a plethora of op produced cats rendering all other methods worthless.

Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#53 Added by Waylanda(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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In almost all MMO's there is something that is won or lost by PvP and whatever it is, be it a city, stronghold, outpost or mine that grants the victors a benefit making that benefit available to the masses without having to take part in the PvP makes that entity almost worthless.

Boosting personal production beyond a stack or two a day would belittle the outposts and the efforts guilds take to ensure their security, the time and gear spent defending them is huge including damage to PvP quality HA/Jewels and the amount of resources spent fueling Ranged fighters.

The Rareness of these items both cats & mats makes them more special increasing them deminishes all of them.

Their is nothing wrong with levelling without cats, folks should focus on the journey and worry less about the destination, levels will come in time and Ryzom has proven notouriously hard to kill she'll be here.

#54 Added by Fyrosfreddy 1 decade ago [en]

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Daomei (Leanon)

I beg your pardon, but you are talking rubbish about something you obviously haven't tried and don't understand..

Well I certainly do. I completed all of the Basic Occs but w/o the benefit of being handed 100% occ recipes simply because when I did the occs, no one else had done most of them. Had help w/ 1st 2 or 3 but then interest waned and was a solo effort for most part. Butcher was a PITA doing solo.

For the non spoon fed, it takes a lot longer than the time you describe. But it was fun figuring them out so I didn't see it as a time investment issue. I very much enjoyed the basic occs... adv occs ... not so much.

On the other hand, using your own words about how long it takes to make 1500 cats, the fact remains if I simply grind a skill for that time, I'm getting more XP. When It takes longer to make the cats than it does to use them, it's a negative sum game.

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#55 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en]

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Fyrosfreddy

For the non spoon fed, it takes a lot longer than the time you describe. But it was fun figuring them out so I didn't see it as a time investment issue. I very much enjoyed the basic occs... adv occs ... not so much.

I am, to some extent, a non spoon fed, too. I figured out the first three occupations before advancing was blocked for months. My best riddle solution was 93% anyway, never achieved a better one on my own.

Yet, when advanced professions came, efficiency became an issue. Thus, I took help from friends, some guilds concentrating on occupations (not for free), and spoiler sites as far as available. In the meantime, solutions are widely known and aren't an issue. Still I suggest to anybody starting occupations to experience the fun of recipe riddles. Though I was not extremely successful, I enjoyed it.

On the other hand, using your own words about how long it takes to make 1500 cats, the fact remains if I simply grind a skill for that time, I'm getting more XP. When It takes longer to make the cats than it does to use them, it's a negative sum game.

You possibly misread me. I make 2-5 stacks a day (granted that 5 is together with my alt on the second sub) with an effort of about 1-1.5hr a day, all component farming included, in a relaxed way. I am speaking of q250. This spells 20-30 minutes per stack. (I may explain that in more depth if anybody is interested)

One stack is worth 100k xp, that's simple calculus. When I am in the final 10 or 20 levels, or leading edge in any crafting, I get an average of bit more than 100xp/mat. That means, digging 100k xp means digging 1000 mat, roughly. I am not a super digger who possibly yields 900 mats an hour, rather I am happy when considerably exceeding 600. Actually, 2000 in 3 hrs is a good result for me, often I get less when there is agro or I simply have tough luck with the sources.

Crafting is not done in zero time. I have to collect the harvest, place it on my beasts, undress, wield tool, and start crafting. Later I have to get rid of the products, normally by selling, as I detest build and drop. That means, that an additional half an hour at least is spent by crafting.

Thus, one stack saves me about 1.75hr (double result of 1.5hr digging plus half of .5hr crafting time) at the expense of 20-30 minutes to obtain one stack. Not bad for me.

Granted, yield is ways lower for q200 and q150 (few left at 150 for me). Yet I usually barter q250 cats against q200 at a rate of 3:5 and against q150 at a rate of 2:5 which widely makes up for the difference. I seldom use cats when overcrafting because that's waste, only when I'm in a hurry.

Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#56 Added by Fyrosfreddy 1 decade ago [en]

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I don't use alts or spoiler web sites and the latter didnt exist at the time as we were "blazing the trail". Don't think of them as riddles ..... trial and error to start and then process of elimination and algebra from there. Where I gotta fault ya logic in the 1st instances is you are discounting the alt's time..... your adv occ time has to be counted twice. You are having two toons work for the sole benefit one one.

As for the XP gained from cats, 999 x 100 = 99,900 is not exactly higher rmathematics. Its not claculus, just simple arithmetic. My 2nd problem is the overcomplication of the digging / crafting process. I have mastered all 5 lands and can dig anything in any one of the 4 racial lands and avoid aggro 99.5% of the time. As for crafting, the extra steps you list are virtaully timeless. I dig 4 bags, 3 go on my packer. Those 3 transfers take 0 time as it's done while digging.....cont'd.

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IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Turn Cat producton rate back up.