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IDEAS FOR RYZOM
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#1 Added by Zeando 5 years ago [en] 

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Trekking: traveling from one region to an other in group, to fend off the dangerous beasts on the road, and to keep the Mektoub Packers alive until destination.
The same a moving house, but with deadly beasts on the road.


Suggestion: balance the usage of teleports and trekking, by:
(a)make teleports which allow cross region travel enough expensive
as to make traveling and trekking a compelling way to travel between main regions. (compelling for all players, veterans and newbies alike)


Some say that once you gain teleports to the main capitals, there is no point in trekking anymore.
Which is all good for a game with no new players, but if there are any new players, they're going to remain stuck in their region until some saint soul decides to pity them and take them along.

If teleports are favored over trekking, it means teleports are too convenient.

A correct balancing of teleporting and trekking should be like:
Teleports: quick and safe, but very expensive
Trekk: cheap and rewarding, but dangerous



The alternative version B of this suggestion is here.
The related suggestion about advertising trekking is here.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Zeando (5 years ago)

#2 Added by Luminatrix 5 years ago [en] 

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I disagree completely. Teleports aren't "too convenient". They are still pretty damn expensive unless you're a rich endgame player. In which case, you can do a lot of missions and wouldn't care about the increased costs too much anyway.

You also need to realize that many members of the community don't get a whole lot of playtime. Many of us only have an hour or two we can play in one evening. If half of that is spent trekking, that's just no fun and it hinders the experience of the game.

Besides, there are are things you have to do on foot. Mektoubs can't teleport and, as someone who digs a lot, I trek them pretty frequently.

How is trekking rewarding? By being cheaper? What about the huge amount of time it takes? That doesn't sound rewarding to me. At all. Especially with how dangerous it can be in certain regions.

I'm honestly getting worried about the amount of people who want to gimp teleportation lately. It's like you people are trying your best to alienate parts of the community. I have said this before and I will say it again, turning something into a time sink is NOT engaging gameplay !

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Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#3 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en] 

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@Luminatrix

I understand, but I am afraid you see it from today's point of view and also your gamestyle. Teleporting _is_ cheap, by me. You can see it on that players are not forced to think before they act. They jump here and in few minutes there and if they forgot something, they simply teleport back.

I don't like it. I would like traveling to be more complicated and long so the decision to move somewhere else will be big step, not question of a moment and few dappers. Run on foot from Yrkanis to Pyr, then to Zora and via PR to FH can be done in less than 90 minutes. Alone, without death, without any high skill level. On the other hand, for many masters to trek means to go like a bulldozer, killing everything along - I understand that this is really boring and slow :).

How is trekking rewarded?
You will get to location you wanted, you rise your Atys paths knowledge, you can made new friends. Or run a commercial trekking - best opportunity once teleporting will be weakened :)

This proposal of Zeando as well as the B version are not good for various reasons. I also understand this would be really big change to current gameplay. But I generally support the idea to make traveling harder.

#4 Added by Luminatrix 5 years ago [en] 

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Moniq
@Luminatrix

I understand, but I am afraid you see it from today's point of view and also your gamestyle. Teleporting _is_ cheap, by me. You can see it on that players are not forced to think before they act. They jump here and in few minutes there and if they forgot something, they simply teleport back.

I don't like it. I would like traveling to be more complicated and long so the decision to move somewhere else will be big step, not question of a moment and few dappers. Run on foot from Yrkanis to Pyr, then to Zora and via PR to FH can be done in less than 90 minutes. Alone, without death, without any high skill level. On the other hand, for many masters to trek means to go like a bulldozer, killing everything along - I understand that this is really boring and slow :).

How is trekking rewarded?
You will get to location you wanted, you rise your Atys paths knowledge, you can made new friends. Or run a commercial trekking - best opportunity once teleporting will be weakened :)

This proposal of Zeando as well as the B version are not good for various reasons. I also understand this would be really big change to current gameplay. But I generally support the idea to make traveling harder.

You do understand this would alienate a huge part of the playerbase, right? There are already extremely few of us. We can't afford to lose more.

Trekking is boring and tedious. It takes up too much time. Especially through heavy aggro areas like Loria where not getting attacked by *something* at some point is nigh impossible, unless some high level ran through there and cleared most of the aggro. I would love to see you run desert - jungle through the ramp full of kinchers as a low level toon, too. And full of kinchers it is, at least in some seasons. Running literally anywhere on foot is nothing but a time sink. I would rather young homins learn about all the nooks and crannies of Atys through training and exploration, like I did.

I might see the situation from my point of view, but so do you. I'm a scout. Making teleportation much more expensive would screw me over, as it would everyone else who travels over Atys a lot. It would force me to spend most of my time doing dapper missions just so I can do one of the very few things in the game I find fun. Meanwhile, there is literally nothing stopping you from refraining from the use of teleportation.

Lastly, I'm sorry, but "I personally don't like it" is not a valid argument when it comes to game balance. You have provided no logical reason for this change besides that you personally prefer running on foot. Implying I'm young and impatient (which you did, by calling this a "today's point of view") does not give your opinion more weight. Neither does the condescension I get from some people around here for daring to disagree with them.

If you want to incentivize running around, how about making exploration events? Nothing is stopping you from organizing something, taking young Homins to interesting places maybe. I doubt many players know of such hidden gems as the face in a rock wall in lakes, for example. That sounds really nice. Or maybe some more exploration quests that reward trekking (as of now, the closest thing are package delivery runs, maybe something could be done with those to make them more enticing), instead of punishing those who don't do it. Positive reinforcement is always more effective.

Once again, MAKING THE GAME A TIME SINK (and let's face it, this game already is a massive time sink) IS NOT ENGAGING GAMEPLAY!

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Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#5 Added by Zeando 5 years ago [en] 

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I wonder, are we talking about the same thing?
Isn't trekking traveling over dangerous zones to cross from a region to an other in group, like a far west caravan?

Traveling alone, as Luminatrix seems to be talking about, isn't trekking, just traveling alone.
In that case, have you checked out the version B already?
That version already answers the worries of who wants to use teleports for in-region travel.

But cross-region travel shouldn't have easy shortcuts. Paying 1000 dappers to jump from a capital to an other, when the combined daily missions of corporals from a single capital give more than 100'000 dappers, is.a.joke. Even more if compared to the hell that is doing the same without the easy tickets.

Using teleports to travel inside the same region is pretty useless too, but that's what the version B of this suggestion is for, if short jumps are deemed soo much important.


Luminatrix
There are already extremely few of us. We can't afford to lose more.
That's decadent thinking, if you see no option other than contaning the losses, you've already lost.
If there are few players, it likely means something of the gamestyle tailored for the few left isn't engaging for new ones.
Luminatrix
MAKING THE GAME A TIME SINK (and let's face it, this game already is a massive time sink) IS NOT ENGAGING GAMEPLAY!
I totally agree, in fact crafting and foraging are already horrible time sinks, and it's even worse when they are slower in progression than the fighting skill trees, making them pretty useless if one wants to craft their own equipment.

Want to get the opinion of one of those rare, elusive and so precious new players? Here i am.
Crafting and Foraging require an obscene amount of time, there goes the one or two hours of daily playtime, fun right?
But the dangerous wilderness to explore, having to understand your own limits of where you can and where you can't go yet, while still having few safe spots where to fall back to count what you were able to gather from your last travel, the isolated environments with their isolated populations and nations, are all very valuable things, and few games have them. Trekking, or forming traveling bands, is a natural outcome of this harsh setting, and it's a charming gameplay which truly no other game has.

This game needs more group travel, not less. Having it being phased out by cheap fast travel means losing one of the few truly valuable and unique things this game has. (adding more interesting stuff would be next in line, but different suggestions for different threads)


Saying trekking is an useless time sink, is no different than saying ryzom is an useless time sink. (i mean, games are time sinks...........)

Grind by itself isn't bad, it's the boring grind which is bad, while if grinding can be enjoyable it's an added value.

You aren't even talking about trekking, but your traveling alone is boring cause you've lost the sense of wonder for the game world. Personally i still have that sense of wonder, so crossing dangerous regions to get to a new land is a very compelling experience in itself, the time spent traveling is the experience.

Luminatrix
I'm a scout. Making teleportation much more expensive would screw me over, as it would everyone else who travels over Atys a lot.
Taking a plane from europe to america doesn't make you an explorer, just a tourist, or a business person.

#6 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en] 

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Moniq
I understand, but I am afraid you see it from today's point of view and also your gamestyle. Teleporting _is_ cheap, by me. You can see it on that players are not forced to think before they act. They jump here and in few minutes there and if they forgot something, they simply teleport back.

I don't like it. I would like traveling to be more complicated and long so the decision to move somewhere else will be big step, not question of a moment and few dappers. Run on foot from Yrkanis to Pyr, then to Zora and via PR to FH can be done in less than 90 minutes. Alone, without death, without any high skill level. On the other hand, for many masters to trek means to go like a bulldozer, killing everything along - I understand that this is really boring and slow :).
You must have a ton of free time on your hands. Based on this and some comments you've made elsewhere, it would appear you have no actual job. You obviously have no concern about those of us who do work yet wish to actually do things in their limited free time who don't feel like doing more work after already doing some actual work that allows us some actual rewards like living indoors and eating.

But thank you for calling all of us lazy for treating Ryzom as a game to be played in one's leisure time than as an actual job. Thank you for taking the time to offend so many people. I'm sure that you acting so disrespectful and offensive will really help keep Ryzom going.
Luminatrix
Lastly, I'm sorry, but "I personally don't like it" is not a valid argument when it comes to game balance. You have provided no logical reason for this change besides that you personally prefer running on foot. Implying I'm young and impatient (which you did, by calling this a "today's point of view") does not give your opinion more weight. Neither does the condescension I get from some people around here for daring to disagree with them.
That's all some people know, and why these forums have different demographics than the game itself. And since their voices are the ones that are heard, many like you and I are thought to be the minority, so the devs cater to them and push more people like us out of the game entirely... much to the delight of those who feel allowing gamers onto "their" RP server back in 2012 was a mistake.
Zeando
If there are few players, it likely means something of the gamestyle tailored for the few left isn't engaging for new ones.
And that is why I am not fond of suggestions that make the game unplayable for those of us who do not have the luxury of spending 5-15 hours a night playing, or unappealing to those that have different styles of RP than deep-immersion repetition of the long-distant past while actively suppressing any sort of societal evolution like inclusiveness, tolerance, or redrawing faction lines as society changes.

---

Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#7 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en] 

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Luminatrix
You do understand this would alienate a huge part of the playerbase, right?
Yes, of course. Wasn't it obvious?
Luminatrix
Trekking is boring and tedious. It takes up too much time.
And I think the opposite. However I would keep capital city pacts.
Luminatrix
I would rather young homins learn about all the nooks and crannies of Atys through training and exploration, like I did.
I see no conflict with this. Go and explore, train, learn how to survive, whatever...
Luminatrix
Making teleportation much more expensive would screw me over, as it would everyone else who travels over Atys a lot.
I wonder why you need to travel forth and back - ok I have some ideas but lets not touch it. And I primary say to reduce teleport locations.
Luminatrix
Lastly, I'm sorry, but "I personally don't like it" is not a valid argument when it comes to game balance.
Why? That sounds like that my ideas about how I imagine the game rule settings are less important than yours or my subscription has lower value than yours.
Luminatrix
You have provided no logical reason for this change besides that you personally prefer running on foot.
Logical? Whats wrong about how I feel the game should be? It is too easy and plentyful, life on Atys suppose to be harder and resources much more valuable. And traveling should be much much more important part.
Luminatrix
Implying I'm young and impatient (which you did, by calling this a "today's point of view") does not give your opinion more weight.
No I didn't say that (however it applies to many players :)). I ment that if you look on such change from point of view of current game rules, it looks like a time sink ofc. Because traveling is just a little boring thing you need to do (using mostly a teleport service). However once the traveling become important part of the gameplay, your point about sink is not valid. It is easy, you have developed your gameplay style based on current rules. If there were different rules your gameplay style would not be possible - you would not play at all or you would develop other style. And no, it does not make my opinion any more important than yours.
Luminatrix
... how about making exploration events? Nothing is stopping you from organizing something, taking young Homins to interesting places maybe. I doubt many players know of such hidden gems as the face in a rock wall in lakes, for example. That sounds really nice. Or maybe some more exploration quests that reward trekking (as of now, the closest thing are package delivery runs, maybe something could be done with those to make them more enticing)...
These are good ideas but I see just a little relation to what I would like to change.
Luminatrix
...instead of punishing those who don't do it
Where exactly do I push anyone? By expressing my ideas? I always have a lot of fun about how everyone feels so "pushed" by any idea that does not fit them. I can also feel "pushed", look to what the Ranger organization became. Or all those OOC events. Or... :P

...

Many of you think that my opinions are extreme. Yes, that is possible. I feel like to defend higher game difficulty face to everyday suggestions to make the game even easier. Well, in fact, a lot of player suggestions only lead to situation when the game plays itself. Yes, not by one specific small change but it is a salami tactics.

It looks funny to me when masters complain that there is nothing to do for them and on the other hand they suggest to make things even more easier (automated). So they have to play even less (because of time)... :)

I am no crazy to think that we will drop 90+% of players just to make the game exactly as I would like it. However I see nothing wrong about to express myself to represent what I want. As everyone else does. My goal is to reduce unnecessary benefits, stop making the game easier, make only changes with Lore background and slightly rise the difficulty. And prefer RP over OOC ofc. Maybe because there is a lot of noisy homins who represent exact opposit to me?

...

@Gidget
I don't think it has any sense to reply to you while you distort what I say again, even before we start.

Last edited by Moniq (5 years ago)

#8 Added by Luminatrix 5 years ago [en] 

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Moniq
Why? That sounds like that my ideas about how I imagine the game rule settings are less important than yours or my subscription has lower value than yours.

Why? I'm not saying that your ideas are less important. They are not. As I said, we all are entitled to our opinion. This is not personal. We clearly both care about the state of the game. My issue with your posts is mostly the patronizing and the condescending tone.

What I am saying, however, is that I strongly dislike the fact that you apparently wish to impose your playstyle on others and to make such drastic changes to the game - changes that would impact others much more than they would impact you. Especially since the way you prefer to play is already available - as I said, nothing is stopping you from running everywhere on foot or organizing travel groups.

Edit:
Moniq
I wonder why you need to travel forth and back

I have spoken about this before. I'm a scout. I go looking for bosses that my guild and I can kill. I guess that's a crime in your eyes, too?

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Luminatrix (5 years ago)

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Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#9 Added by Laoviel 5 years ago [en] 

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Personally, I would just introduce a cooldown for teleporting -- which is in line with the lore, mind you, teleporting is not supposed to be a light act done again and again throughout the day. Au contraire.

So, I don't know, maybe increasingly long teleportation times, with each teleportation done in a short interval?

Actual cooldowns before you are able to use another pact? Both ideas would be fine with me, and they would certainly curb pact usage. However,

My only gripe with this proposal is this: the benefits seem rather oblique, while the disadvantage seems bigger. Namely, if the limitation on teleporting become too drastic, it can toughen the (already hard) learning curve for beginners.

As for the scouting argument: lady, please. I'm a scout too, time-permitting, and we both know you can use & exploit death-porting to great effect, if you really wish to continue looking for bosses. In fact, I know many scouts that use death-porting tactically when they're finished with a region, to save their auras ;) DP stacks up to 10 times, and it's easily cleared.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Laoviel (5 years ago)

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My home is always sweet Yrkanis..

#10 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en] 

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Moniq
@Gidget
I don't think it has any sense to reply to you while you distort what I say again, even before we start.
You do the same to everyone else though, and throw in plenty of disrespect and derision as well, so you really have no right to complain about me doing exactly what you do.

And if you want to know why so many do not wish to engage with the community (especially not these forums), or why so many feel pushed out of the game, look in the mirror. Luminatrix can see it. Dozens of folks who do not feel like wasting their breath on you see it. It's pretty obvious to a lot of people. But I have enough (apparently unreciprocated) respect for you that I feel you do not need me to spell it out for you as though you were a small child, so I will let you figure out on your own what is so obvious to so many.

Is your subscription worth more than the many subscriptions of the tons of folks (often multi-subbers) who treat Ryzom as a game instead of a second job, or are you willing to put your ego aside for the long-term health of Atys? You can impose whatever restrictions you want upon yourself, but when you insult others for not wanting the rules changed so that everyone must play the same as you do, you become a problem. At best, you feed into the sentiment that a unified server is impossible to maintain and that Merge was a mistake. If that is not the message you want to send, then you (and a few other people) really need to dial it back a couple of notches and start respecting those who are not as fanatically hardcore extremist as you are.

* * * * *

@Laoviel - As one who rarely uses multiple TPs within 15 minutes of each other, I would have little problem with a cooldown timer so long as it was not so long that it discouraged low-level toons from going between their training area and the nearest trainer to buy new skills in a reasonably timely manner. Maybe tie the cooldown length to the level of the region? Of course, Ranger paths would need to be exempt from that cooldown as many destinations require multiple hops along the web, so any sort of cooldown would basically make the pathway network unusable. Unlike certain Rangers, I would rather keep that network usable.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#11 Added by Luminatrix 5 years ago [en] 

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If we absolutely *must* make teleportation more inconvenient (why are we arguing about how to fix something that isn't even broken?), I suppose a cooldown of 10 to 15 minutes wouldn't be that bad. (I have no idea who even teleports that often, unless they misclick the icon and accidentally go somewhere they didn't want to, but sure)

@Laoviel I don't deathport (well, at least not intentionally, sometimes I die despite my efforts to stay alive). I can use the 20 minutes it takes to clear 10 stacks of DP doing other things. Actually, if anything, I would call deathporting an exploit that needs to be fixed. Someone, I believe it was Kaetemi (not sure though, so apologies if I'm crediting the wrong person with this idea), suggested in another thread to change respawns so that, upon death, the player can only respawn at their last teleport location. I quite like that idea. As it is now, endgamers who have mastered everything they wished to barely ever have to teleport anyway. They don't care about DP.

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Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#12 Added by Placio 5 years ago [en] 

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If you choose to not teleport, that is your choice. I, however, do not want to waste my time running through regions that do not interest me and provide no benefit. Relating to the cooldown- time on Atys runs a lot faster, so 10-15 minutes RL would be over 3-5 hours in character...

#13 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en] 

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@Laoviel
I like the idea of a cooldown.


@Luminatrix
About scouting: You really want to continue? Systematic long-term farming of bosses or supreme materials without any reason (in meaning of need) is rude to others. Yes you can say that they can scout as well, it was said in other thread before I think. But they might consider _that_ to be time sinking. I can't say how your guild does act. But I say we should have some limits and think: do we really need another full GH?

About deathporting: I consider it to be exploit as well and I don't do it. Would be nice to fix it.


@Placio
Trekking brings (almost) no benefits. Yes, that was one interesting point of the original post. I hope it could be changed in the future with dynamic events randomly appearing around the planet. Then something new might be found on every places not interesting homins today.

#14 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [en] 

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Moniq

@Luminatrix
About scouting: You really want to continue? Systematic long-term farming of bosses or supreme materials without any reason (in meaning of need) is rude to others. Yes you can say that they can scout as well, it was said in other thread before I think. But they might consider _that_ to be time sinking. I can't say how your guild does act. But I say we should have some limits and think: do we really need another full GH?

Why someone should stop doing what he likes? Because others doesn't want to put the effort in this activity? Specially in a game where there is pretty much nothing to do at high level?
And boss resources are meant to be limited and time consuming for gathering them... Nothing wrong with having a bunch of people scouting.
If people wants their piece of the cake, maybe they can start to participate to the activity.

#15 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en] 

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Sinvaders
Why someone should stop doing what he likes? Because others doesn't want to put the effort in this activity? Specially in a game where there is pretty much nothing to do at high level?
And boss resources are meant to be limited and time consuming for gathering them... Nothing wrong with having a bunch of people scouting.
If people wants their piece of the cake, maybe they can start to participate to the activity.

Agreed. If one wants to spend the time and effort going all over Atys in the hopes of finding a boss or a non-depleted Sup spot, then that's their prerogative. If you also want those resources then do not expect to get them without putting in the same amount of T&E as they do. And if someone does it despite having limited free time then it's obviously a high priority for them so why take away one of their favorite things?

There is also the matter of any limited resource you have is a limited resource that your enemy does not. Is it rude to seek advantage over your opponents, or merely good strategy? To my mind, any faction that is in conflict with another faction, and (especially) any faction that has "Might makes right" as one of their central tenets is merely doing good RP by taking more sups/bosses than they need. Sure, it's annoying to those that are bad at hunting, cannot offer anything worth trading, and/or don't have anyone they are on friendly enough terms to trade with, but c'est la vie.

---

Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

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