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#16 Added by Gidget 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Placio
I do have two major thoughts- both related to the cooldowns:

First, many cooldowns are much longer than anything we have ever seen ingame before, which may work out fine in the long run- there are a lot of NPCs that can be visited. But, is it easier if all the mission given by one specific NPC have the same/similar cooldown times? That way you know if you cycle back to that region in two or three days all the missions will be available again- instead of some being back in 20h, more in 2d10h, 4d, etc...
Something that needs to be accounted for is that any cooldown over 23h is basically no different from a 2-day cooldown for those that don't have the luxury of playing at least 5 hours a day. And having long cooldowns with no dapper buff on crafting missions pretty much makes overseer missions not worth leveling crafting skills for.

It'd be more efficient to make alt armies more egregiously (though, admittedly, more creatively) than is already done. IMO, anything that encourages folks to seek exploits is a bad thing. I mean, I thought the point of the cooldown nerf was to get people to play the game, not to get more into the meta-game or frustrated into rage-quitting. Good idea, bad implementation, needs more fine-tuning.
Luminatrix
As for the missions, I think it would be nice if there was a system for how much missions pay and how long their cooldown is based on how difficult to perform they are, on top of the already implemented changes. I am aware that more difficult missions already tend to pay better when it comes to crafting, but it could use some fine tuning. It would be great if easier missions also had slightly shorter cooldowns. So we could choose if we want to do easier missions for less money more often, or more difficult, better paying missions, less often.
A hearty +1 there, especially since I thing a new player hit with cooldowns this long would get a bad impression and leave before they really begin playing.
Luminatrix
I think a couple of the mission cooldowns are also a little excessive now, especially when it comes to crafting ones. They have not been buffed in terms of rewards but the time in which they can be repeated has been increased massively, punishing crafters a little bit. Right now there is not much reason to do them because you need to dig a bunch of mats AND craft items. At that point, the better option is just to take a digging mission, that will likely be quicker and easier for comparable rewards.
Not even. Maybe the digging alternative to package runs is worthwhile if you are +100 fame in one race (Ranger/neutrals can forget about even those) but otherwise I'm not even sure any missions are worthwhile. We'll see what the next adjustment patch does...

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#17 Added by Fyrosfreddy 5 years ago Report | Quote[fr] 

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My commentary is all secondhand, so not pointing out problems, just trying to get an understanding of what the goal was and if it's been successfully addressed. 

1.  The NH rewards were way out of whack for the effort .... thinking back to the time immediately post merge, it took a long time to bring the occupations back up again, run the fame missions to get all the national fames maxed out.  With NY, 3 days and you went 0 - 50.

2.  Never thought the double bonus for 100 fame was a fair thing.  Undoubtedly, everyone who had it would disagree.  If they passed a tax cut where everyone whose name began with a vowel, everyone whose name began with one would love it .... those whose names began with consonents ... not so much.   At least those who did the 50-50-50-50 thing were balanced a bit by the free rides in 4 nations; this provided at least a scintilla towards balance.  Now that's gone.

3.  I have had a few "I'm logging off, too frustrating" conversations with folks ... some things I agree with, some I don't,  The NH rewards were too extravagant ... the new rewards seem even more so.

4.  Though I'm not a ranger, this appears to be hitting them hard  ... when ya can gain or lose 8 points just by doing 4 missions, dropping below 42 is a real risk.   Yes, the auto counter argument will be "well pay attention" ... the auto counter to that will be "nobody else has to".    Are the Rangers the only ones who have to redo the rite if their fame drops below a certain level ?  And at 250k a clip.... what's the goal here ?... the stated need to wipe everything at the server merge was that the ecomy was borked cause eveyone had too much money ....

5.  I paid much attention to the fame mechanics over the previous 2 years.  In chasing achievments, if you planned the routine well, it was such that if ya gained 0.40 points from a misiion... you might lose 0.04.  I was chatting with a player today and found that, for the missions he was doing ... for every 1.0 point gained, he wa slosing 1.2 points.   While this is a great system if you are trying to max negative fame ... how does one max positive fame ?  For those trying to have balanced fame ... it seems to be a lose-lose proposition.  How does one carry thru the achievments they been working on for a couple of years is for every 5 steps forward, ya take 6 steps back.

Again, I have been on a digging / crafting spurt the last week or so so Im not doing much of anything else.   But for every craft level gained, one earns about 6 levels in chat.  Either what these conversations have revealed is correct or it is not.   But what is clear is that many players don't understand the mechanics and don't see a way to continue to pursue the goals that they have set for themselves.

Like with any "new thing", when folks don't undertsnd something, they tend to make pre-mature judgments and assume the worst.    The preparation of  a guide or individual foum topics collecting player experiences as to how to approach the new changes from the perspective of Kami / Kara, Ranger, Neutral, Marauder would I think stem much of the anxiety.   Im sure it would also help staff address balancing issues if the PoVs presented from each side of the table were presnted from the PoV from each group individually crosstalk betwenn the groups.

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#18 Added by Gidget 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Fyrosfreddy
The preparation of  a guide or individual foum topics collecting player experiences as to how to approach the new changes from the perspective of Kami / Kara, Ranger, Neutral, Marauder would I think stem much of the anxiety.   Im sure it would also help staff address balancing issues if the PoVs presented from each side of the table were presnted from the PoV from each group individually crosstalk betwenn the groups.

Also, a little bit of perspective from those who play 2-3 hours a day versus those that play all night.... and those who view freedom as a core value versus those who feel freedom is anathema... and those who view Lore as immutable rules versus those who treat it as a story... and those who feel the future should be a repeat of the past versus those who feel Atys should evolve and change...

While this patch has been mostly mechanics, I think that all changes need to account for a wide variety of viewpoints. And it seems that the demographics of the test groups and these forums are different than the demographics of the server.... though they are getting closer as more folks get disenfranchised.

Last edited by Gidget (5 years ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#19 Added by Revvy 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Sure.. but is it really relevant?

Not saying it isn't, just in all "serious" game that are time consuming and require involvement like a MMO, you cannot expect easy-peasy features for people that play 3h a days while gaining the same rewards/value than a lets say more involved client..
It's a business, we are the product and it is better for WG if they push people to stay online, or any MMO producer.

Could be better to try pleasing any type of players, every type of clients but this most of the time lead to failure, that why a lot of product goal focus on prioritizing certain type of target.

I don't think we should expect Ryzom to cover all range (from hard-core Diablo fan to candy crush), in the actual state it can't be afforded, that my opinion ofc.

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Maybe we could make a players driven team to create content and stories for a hundred of (new) missions via scenario and writters? With a Lorist monitoring the project. This could help.

Let NH sink and we try to get real quests for once lol, something to make people login and sub, a game should be fun :p

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#20 Added by Placio 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Yes, when I say 2 or 3 days I meant 1d 20h and 2 d 20h. Players that are only able to play 1-2 hours a day pay just as much for their subscription as everyone else and should not be inconvenienced. It takes nothing away from the other players with more time to play to have the large CDs follow this type of pattern. Some people to have work, school, family, other hobbies, personal time, etc...

#21 Added by Gidget 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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@Revvy - In that case, they may want to do a better job of accommodating those who cannot attend events at 11am on a weekday. I'm not saying adults and casuals should earn equal rewards, just that we should earn enough to actually have it worth our time to play and our money to subscribe. Of course those who have the luxury of free time because they dont' work nearly as hard at RL should get more for their added effort; I'm simply saying that this game should not be a second job. If I wanted to work more than I already do, I would not be doing it for virtual rewards like game stats/items; I would be paying off some medical debts quicker so I might be able to actually retire someday.

You are correct that appealing to too wide a demographic can lead to failure, but so can appealing to too narrow a demographic. And something that has been increasingly true over the years I've been here is that the demographic that Ryzom seems to be targeting is solely Lore-worshipping, restriction-loving Francophones who live between UTC and UTC+3. Live in the wrong time zone? No RP events or OPs for you! Don't speak French even as a fourth language? No lore for you! Work full-time and spend less than 12 hours a day at home to eat, sleep, clean, shop, and otherwise be a functional adult in addition to having some wind-down/leisure time? No sense of reward or progression for you! If any of that sounds even the least bit flippant or hyperbolic then it's time for some SERIOUS PR damage control. I've watched a lot of good folks get pushed away by that, and I see quite a few more that had one foot out the door before this patch who feel that this patch continues that trend. How about if we try putting a stop to that? Maybe make it a game where people will want to keep logging in, maybe paying subs? I mean, the alternative is to shrink the community further and deprive WG of fundage by making folks (some of them subbed, a few with multiple subbed accounts) leave in disgust (some taking their money with them).

Now, I don't mind putting in a couple hours a night to dig a couple packers so I can craft a couple levels, and I have no problem with those who live a more charmed life being able to power through 10 levels in the time it takes me to get 2. However, if I have to wait 2 days for a mission that others can do every day, it's not a matter of "easy peasy"; the @^&*%ing clock needs adjusting. The 23h timer of NH was perfectly fine, so lets go with things that allow one to do the same mission about the same time every time instead of effectively adding 24h because one has responsibilities outside of Ryzom?

And while there is already some faction rebalancing going on, but it still seems like those of us who do not pick a nation and a religion are not on equal footing with those who do. Lets give Maras and Rangers a shot at earning the same rewards K/K-worshiping citizens get, alright?

We should accommodate a wider range than we do. Some folks need to learn what a sandbox is and remember that freedom is a selling point for Ryzom; it's even on the front page of the official website. There needs to be some recognition that there is an entire planet out there that is not exactly like the ~100miles/~160km surrounding one's home. In short, there needs to be more understanding.

Yes, we should have a more player-driven team. Sadly, that would mean many would have to choose between being a player or being on that team; there are not enough hours in the day for both. Also, we should have some folks work on translating what is already there; DeepL and GooTran are good for a laugh, but not for actual translation.

As for NH, the dappers and fame never were the real draw there for many (myself included). Just because those who had +100 fame got overpaid, that is no reason to deprive those of us who want to do more with our time than just package runs of any chance to earn points. Maybe a next step would be to have more ways to earn points, preferably some that don't take so long that those of us who work for a living can't do them at all yet still have decent enough rewards to not be a waste of dev's time to add in.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#22 Added by Revvy 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Gidget
@Revvy - In that case, they may want to do a better job of accommodating those who cannot attend events at 11am on a weekday. I'm not saying adults and casuals should earn equal rewards, just that we should earn enough to actually have it worth our time to play and our money to subscribe. Of course those who have the luxury of free time because they dont' work nearly as hard at RL should get more for their added effort; I'm simply saying that this game should not be a second job. If I wanted to work more than I already do, I would not be doing it for virtual rewards like game stats/items; I would be paying off some medical debts quicker so I might be able to actually retire someday.
Yes indeed, notice occupations and missions are not fun :)
Same goes for missions fame, whatever you earn it is by repetition and boring grind (call it excessive grind for no purpose)

It's more a burden, a job in the game: its long like working chain in factory.
This is not because of the patch but players now start to realize it ;)


Gidget
Now, I don't mind putting in a couple hours a night to dig a couple packers so I can craft a couple levels, and I have no problem with those who live a more charmed life being able to power through 10 levels in the time it takes me to get 2. However, if I have to wait 2 days for a mission that others can do every day, it's not a matter of "easy peasy"; the @^&*%ing clock needs adjusting. The 23h timer of NH was perfectly fine, so lets go with things that allow one to do the same mission about the same time every time instead of effectively adding 24h because one has responsibilities outside of Ryzom?
I understand, and would agree with you if the game would provide a bunch of missions like occupations.
But this isn't the case, I did read more than 1k missions..

A timer of 2 days on 1 mission, make you try the 999+ other :)

If we get mind stuck in the system of NH = few products = lot of rewards and 23h CD..
Obviously this patch is terrible, since we do not get all parameters.

Once again, it would be me NH rewards I let it sink and i would invest money into actual missions (real quest) making.

That when you log after a day of work, instead of going grind like a slave to get your poor level of xp or cristal, you actually do an interesting quest for the time you are online.
Could give you lore stories, players stories, experience orbs, action and exploration, fun, <insert what a normal game can provide>.


Gidget
And while there is already some faction rebalancing going on, but it still seems like those of us who do not pick a nation and a religion are not on equal footing with those who do. Lets give Maras and Rangers a shot at earning the same rewards K/K-worshiping citizens get, alright?
Mara and Ranger are '''new faction''' so they should get their own rewards and points system.. in a perfect world.
That also mean to deny KK rewards or feature to both.

But since these factions was created and implemented on the surface, or worse not even finished, we will abandon the idea of a real implementation :)


Gidget
We should accommodate a wider range than we do. Some folks need to learn what a sandbox is and remember that freedom is a selling point for Ryzom; it's even on the front page of the official website. There needs to be some recognition that there is an entire planet out there that is not exactly like the ~100miles/~160km surrounding one's home. In short, there needs to be more understanding.
lol :)

For information there is also RP and PvP right in front of the official website, which in reality isn't the case ;)
Most of the description in that page is lies when you play enough the game to understand it.
Its from an Era which is long time gone, so really do like me - don't mind it :P

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As said, in my opinion NH system isn't the solution and a real rework OR implementation of adventure quests is cruelly needed.

Whatever the client you are, when you feel like working in chain; obligation or you fall asleep because the grind is excessively boring, the game isn't fun and fail to provide what a game should give.

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#23 Added by Placio 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Revvy please read post #4 by Ulukyn- the aggressive and anti nation/cult tribes should now be a valuable source of negative fame and dappers for marauders. I would not be surprised if they are working with the marauders and may in the future shed their K/K protectors and reward Mara fame.

#24 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Placio
Revvy please read post #4 by Ulukyn- the aggressive and anti nation/cult tribes should now be a valuable source of negative fame and dappers for marauders. I would not be surprised if they are working with the marauders and may in the future shed their K/K protectors and reward Mara fame.

Well, 3 years after the launch of marauders gameplay project, there is still no changes (it has also been 2 years after a single event to make the change appears in-game). We are not hopping for anything anymore.

#25 Added by Placio 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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You should be able to work for those select tribes now and only lose faction/cult fame. Give it a try!

#26 Added by Gidget 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Revvy
Yes indeed, notice occupations and missions are not fun :)
Same goes for missions fame, whatever you earn it is by repetition and boring grind (call it excessive grind for no purpose)
Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying there shouldn't be some effort required. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a decent effort/reward ratio. As for what is "decent", I feel that it should be high enough for even those who only play a couple hours a night to feel like they are accomplishing something but low enough that the rewards feel more like a payment than a gift, and they should not be so unbalanced that one feels forced to be K/K-worshipping nationalist.
Revvy
A timer of 2 days on 1 mission, make you try the 999+ other :)
Yes, but that was not what I was getting at. I feel any cooldown more than two Atysian days (2h24m RL time) should align better with RL clocks so they can be done about the same RL time every day (or every X days). For example, a mission that can be done every other day should have a CD timer closer to 1d20h or so. That way, it's easier to just shrug and find another mission without resenting the fact that you can't stay up/on long enough to do it two nights out of every three the way those without full-time jobs can. Think of it as marketing; even if it doesn't make sense in any objective manner, it is perceived as making a bit more sense ("Okay, I can do this every 2 days, that one every 3 days... round numbers are good!") and thus causes less unrest.
Revvy
If we get mind stuck in the system of NH = few products = lot of rewards and 23h CD..
That glosses over the fact that NH was really the only way to get faction points (all-night-long package runs don't count), and that the *4 bonus that +100 fame got versus +50 pretty much made it mandatory to have an alt fence your goods for you. IMO, a better system would've been to have more missions with shorter CDs and smaller payouts so that those who didn't feel like forgoing all hunting or leveling simply to do a tour of the camps could still earn points at all. Based on parts of your post I didn't quote, it seems we agree there.
Revvy
For information there is also RP and PvP right in front of the official website, which in reality isn't the case ;)
Most of the description in that page is lies when you play enough the game to understand it.
It seems to still have a lot of truth though. What you seem to overlook is that the world is not a homogeneous place with uniform styles and preferences. We have differing views of the level of immersion required before one should be driven/kicked from the game for not RPing enough (I've seen games where talking OOC would get you whacked with the Banhammer!), or whether an RPG should be more like an organic world full of "real" people or simply a MOBA with deeper character customization options. It's worth noting that some come here to stop playing a role for a bit, take a break from the immersion of being someone they're not because that's what society demands, and being themselves for a little while. In other words playing a different role IG than you do IRL is simply just a kind/style of RP.

Also, "You don't have to fight in PvP, but you can."; it's a choice, and whichever way one decides is equally valid. Yeah, those who want to should have more opportunity to do so than they currently do, but for this discussion, lets just say that whether or not to PvP should remain more a matter of personal preference than of mechanics.
Revvy
Its from an Era which is long time gone, so really do like me - don't mind it :P
The "Era a long time gone" you refer to is an era of segregation and isolation. Now that those cultures are sharing a unified server, the choices are to either respect the diversity or to pick sides and disenfranchise folks. I would prefer Atys to be a place where the "normal people in a virtual world" players could co-exist amicably with those that make Jared Leto's portrayal of The Joker look non-committal, and where there is less animosity between PvP aficionados and the less gladiatorial players. In short, I want an Atys that has something to offer for anyone who is willing to learn the mechanics and respect their fellow players.
Revvy
As said, in my opinion NH system isn't the solution and a real rework OR implementation of adventure quests is cruelly needed.
I favor the latter option.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#27 Added by Aleeskandaro 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Gidget
...those who didn't feel like forgoing all hunting or leveling simply to do a tour of the camps could still earn points at all...

With the exeption of Lakes, Tour of the camps missions take at most an hour, I have tested this both with a master toon and a roughly level 30 one in all lands except tryker (don't like the swim ^^). Longest run was Fyros at 50m and it took longer because I didn't know the exact locations for the lower level camps.

On top of that, there are also the prospector missions for the camps, these are major civ point mines... having absolutely no cooldown/limit, you can easily get tons of points just with them without ever having to touch a mek or carry a package. Of course they require some dig skill (200 in any land for the highest mission) but it doesn't seem so bad to level up in order to be able to do something (see craft missions, PvP, PR, SN, OP and so on). I only wish I could do it too as myself (there is no such thing for marauders) ^^

Whereas I agree further adjustment is needed regarding the fame changes in the last Fixing Patch, we can't/shouldn't sponsor a mentality that level 1 alts should be our perfect inexhaustible sources of dappers and points. It's wrong.


P.s. Since many don't seem to know about this other prospector missions, you can spoil yourself and see them all listed here

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Bisugott (5 years ago)

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Bisugott(Atys)


#28 Added by Revvy 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Placio
Revvy please read post #4 by Ulukyn- the aggressive and anti nation/cult tribes should now be a valuable source of negative fame and dappers for marauders. I would not be surprised if they are working with the marauders and may in the future shed their K/K protectors and reward Mara fame.

Doesn't matter Placio, these factions aren't implemented like they should, only on the surface after 5 years.. even more :)

@Gidget: Too bad once again you did it.. so I just won't try to continue a previously interesting debat when you derivate in your own personal little fight about something irrelevant or that you have no clue about :)
Your comment still have a bit of value tho; that why it is even more disapointing.

Maybe you will learn a day.. or not.
Anyway try to report the CD to a GM or on RC, that can help :)

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#29 Added by Gidget 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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@Aleeskandaro - I'll have to time my next run, but I can say anecdotally that a Lakes run is usually about the only thing I can do in a night. Lakes has a lot of dismounting and going through portals, and (of course) a lot of swimming. There is one leg where I have been known to just hit Autorun and go AFK for long enough that it's ridiculous. But most nights, I feel my time is better spent doing something more rewarding than trading a few bales of forage for a pitifully small handful of points. And that is the real issue

Sure, I could earn much more if I decided to just min/max with zero regard for lore/RP, swap back to Karavan, and become a Matis Vassal. That alone means that the system truly is set up such that one is better off having their lowbie alt do the run for them. The same is true of the Prospector missions too; if you are Ranger/Neutral, then you're better off having your alt dig, and if you're Mara you have to use an alt. I feel that that is a bad mechanic unless it's specifically designed to force one to be a nationalist, in which case it's a horrid mechanic. Do we want to reward those who bring their character to life, or merely those who play a character that is mechanically optimal? IMO, the mechanics should reward the RP-er more than the min/max-er, but what do I know? :)

One possible solution I can see is pretty simple; add Marauder and Ranger/Neutral missions that give the same points as the racial ones to those of their respective nationalities, as well as matching merchants in their respective camps. It might give us Rangers more incentive to visit Almati more often!

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@Revvy - It's not personal, but most who share the views I post here do not come to these forums or even have Uni chat on because they don't feel like dealing with precisely the sort of smugly arrogant and disrespectfully dismissive attitude that you just displayed yet again. Simply put, I don't like seeing good players driven off or server population declining because they feel the game punishes them for playing like they actually have some freedom. I've seen too much of that already, and I would rather try to get the problem fixed than just cancel my sub and uninstall, no matter how much you want me to do exactly that and leave you to your lore-on-rails MOBA.

This patch did some damage as some feel it does punish them for daring to be something other than a K/K Patriot/Vassal/Citizen/Initiate. But even if the devs balance the fame/dapper rewards and CD timers in a revision of this patch, a major problem that this patch spotlighted will remain as it has multiple causes. I want the problem solved. If solving the problem means addressing those other causes then I really don't care if you think it irrelevant or not; it's still the same problem.

Maybe you will learn to not be one of those causes... or not.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#30 Added by Aleeskandaro 5 years ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Like said, I haven't ever really done the lakes run but for my civ points missions catalogue post and can fully agree its dreadful with all the swimming. The others however are incredibly fast to do once you know where the camps are and you have a mild sense of stealth (to sneak through aggro).

I don't understand your train of thought when you say working for a civilisation in order to gain civilisation points is going against RP/lore. It makes perfect sense to me, that if I work for matis, i get paid by matis, in this case with matis points.

Also, you don't have to swap back to karavan, since cult has no impact on civ point rewards from package runs and the respective prospector missions. And you don't even have to change your allegiance, since even at non-alligned states, rewards are decent (2255 points for running and 990 points for the highest prospector mission, which you can retake over and over and over and over, til you get tired of having easy points). Of course, if you want to be more effective at it, you "mechanically optimise" (allign) and get slightly more than twice rewards for the same effort. I fail to see how this encourages alt play?

If you are Ranger/Neutral you can still do these missions. In fact, if you have a points fever, you can do even an extra run/missions set compared to alligned toons who have one civilisation maxed to 0 fame, hence no possibility of doing it. Sadly, there is no way for marauders at the moment, but the great majority of people (at least judging based on forum posts) complaining about it isn't us.

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Bisugott(Atys)


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