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IDEAS FOR RYZOM
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#16 Added by Loryen 1 decade ago [en] 

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Heulwen
I will briefly address some of Loryen's claims about lore, but any extraneous dialog really belongs in-game or in a different thread.

Thanks for cutting off any opportunity for rebuttal...but probably for the best. Instead I will just let you argue my point.
Heulwen
And we see that Erizon is absolutely right. Despite the obvious story-line reasons for remaining neutral, many players feel that not getting lost in zora isn't quite a compelling enough game mechanical reason to give up easy access to high level zones and so they give up on pretending there is a story at all, just to tech out the game system. This is, in fact, what I have been told to do time and time again: Don't treat it as a world, treat it as a story-less strategy game, and then you can justify aligning. I am surprised that players like loryen who attest that players who ignore lore "cheapen" the game for him do not, therefore, support an adjustment that would make acknowledging the lore less penalized by the game system.

You say Erizon is right and I agree with you...he is. But he says that the primary reason to remain neutral is "expediency and practicality", and that is because given the option the majority of people will disregard the story and lore when is conflicts with ease of gameplay. And yes, to me this "cheapens" the game; munchkinism "cheapens" any game. But worse...altering the mechanics of the game to appease munchkins not only cheapens, but dumbs down and wrecks the game for me.
Erizon
regardless of how compelling a storyline is, expediency and practicality wins the hearts of the overwhelming majority compared to strong adherence to the story

In fact, I would so so far as to suggest that if you do not want to work for one of the divine powers on Atys you do not get rezzed (and no, I never claimed either faction cares about homin, that is a claim the Karavan make only...Kami acknowledge their only concern is Atys, but Atys happens to be Loryen's home...easy decision for me). Once again, why should they bother wasting their resources?

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Loryen (1 decade ago)

#17 Added by Trini 1 decade ago [en] 

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This discussion is as old as the introduction of the cults as a gaming mechanism. Currently a cult allegiance gives a player access to a lot more teleport pacts than a neutral player, but this was originally planned as a temporary issue. The cult system was introduced with the Temple War which for the first time (outside of single events) pitted Kamists versus Karavaneers, that time simply based on fame. So a +0 Kami fame made you Kamist and a -0 made you justs a Anti-Kami.

The second phase was the revamp of the Fame system, which introduced the rites to align with a Cult and/or Nation. Also during this phase all inoperable altars were activated, all non capital altars in regions became accessible to cult members only and you receive a message about the current control status when you enter a new region. This is when the teleport system we use today was introduced.

The third phase would have been the Spires expansion which should have brought the game mechanisms for region control by the two cults. This would also have opened all non purple and non prime roots altars to all neutral players, depending on the control status of a region. So to enter a Karavan controlled region the neutral play would have gained access to the Karavan altar, while the Kami altar wouldn't have been accessible by anyone as long as the region was Karavan controlled.

Since the third phase never was realized, and as far as I know isn't off the table completely, maybe a few adjustments to the access to teleport pacts should be made. My first idea is to allow neutrals to purchase teleport pacts from the altars in all blue cities.

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Trini | 'Ys kard' | Arispotle
First and last of the Darkmoor Rangers

#18 Added by Heulwen 1 decade ago [en] 

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Loryen writes: "Thanks for cutting of any opportunity for rebuttal"

I did not. I addressed many of your points that were relevant to the topic at hand. You ask me "once again" to explain why the odd corrupt kami or kara official would waste resources on a neutral, but as you had no response last time, I don't know why repeating myself would change that. If you don't actually have a rebuttal, perhaps ignoring my response is the best you can do.

I'm sorry that you think that diminished unfairness would wreck the game for you. You completely slip past my point that the game currently imposes severe penalties for acknowledging the lore of the game and finding neutrality to be the reasonable course. Yet you insist that you wish there were more consistent roleplaying. These views are mutually exclusive. It's possible that you have found a way to genuinely hold mutually incompatible views: lots of people do it. But it does tend to render attempts at dialogue moot.

#19 Added by Loryen 1 decade ago [en] 

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Sorry if I came across wrong, I only originally intended to provide constructive feedback and discussion.

Unfortunately, I am just going to have to concede that I don't understand your argument. To me you seem to be contradicting yourself then trying to hide it by claiming I am contradicting myself...So, I am getting confused trying to follow your logic. At this point I have no idea if you are actually arguing a point or just trying to instigate a fight....and I have no interest in a fight that might escalate to pissing off someone else in a guild I greatly respect. You win...congrats, good luck with your request.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Loryen (1 decade ago)

#20 Added by Erizon(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en] 

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Huelwen
And so we learn that they are out to control us homins for their own unknown ends. The fact that they need something from us and are trying to control us should make us suspicious of their complete neutral honesty in descriptions that they and their followers contribute to subsequent lore.

The first statement (which isn't itself completely true) does not support the second statement. While you might be able to make the "control homins" claims about the Karavan, as the lore does provide a little bit of wiggle room, I would like to see your sources for making those claims about the Kami.

You also fail to establish that either side needs anything from the Homins. Again, you might make claims about the Karavan, an even greater stretch than above, but there is no basis in the lore for a definitive answer.

Huelwen
Add to that the in-lore prevarication about the kami's all-knowing nature (it should be obvious to any reader from context that we are only speaking about all-knowingness within atys and not the entire universe), and i cannot imagine that individual kamis are incapable of corruption.

I defer to the lore first:

"They share a collective conscience and it would seem that no living species may escape their perception, and consequently, their wrath if their laws of conservation are transgressed." (Source, Source)

Your suggestion about "individual Kami" has no merit because there is no such thing as an individual Kami. It's that collective conscience thing that you skipped right over. If you have corrupted one Kami, you have corrupted all Kami. That's not going to happen (unless of course you are Karavan and already hold that the Kami as a whole are corrupted. But that's not part of this discussion *grin*).

Now, we could go on and discuss theories about the nature of the Kami, and origins and goals of the Karavan, but those things are not necessarily grounded in the lore.

Now, having concluded our lore lesson for the day, lets re-visit your original post:

Huelwen
I understand that the reason for enforcing no neutral TPs is to make joining a faction attractive. However, wouldn't be enough to have someone in each zone willing to sell anyone a TP for the right price, where the right price was extremely inflated and possibly modified by fame? Corrupt officials are everywhere, why aren't there any in PR or Void? Maybe it could cost 5-10x as much to get a TP if you are neutral in zones that currently require alignment. You'd be slightly rewarded for fame and penalized for neutrality.

You want to remain neutral. That's fine, and perfectly wonderful.

You want advantages that neutrals currently do not have. That's understandable, and MAY have some merit. But remember, Neutrality also has its benefits, as does aligning with a faction. And they all have their drawbacks. One stance cannot overwhelm the others, with the understanding that the game developers are encouraging players to choose one side or the other, and have been doing so ever since the introduction of factional exclusivity.

Since this is an idea thread... Unless you present some strong, compelling, and lore-appropriate way to give advantages to neutrals that they currently do not have which also does not cause an imbalance, I'm opposed to your idea.

Last edited by Erizon(arispotle) (1 decade ago)

#21 Added by Iala(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en] 

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Erizon
Huelwen
And so we learn that they are out to control us homins for their own unknown ends. The fact that they need something from us and are trying to control us should make us suspicious of their complete neutral honesty in descriptions that they and their followers contribute to subsequent lore.

The first statement (which isn't itself completely true) does not support the second statement. While you might be able to make the "control homins" claims about the Karavan, as the lore does provide a little bit of wiggle room, I would like to see your sources for making those claims about the Kami.

Both statements are true. Tryton lives!
Of course many are blinded by the kami or karavan into blindly adhering to the will of their masters, but let your eyes be opened and you see there is much we don't know about their true motivation.

#22 Added by Arfur 1 decade ago [en] 

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When I began in this game (only a few months ago) I was determined to remain neutral. This was fine until I got to the Mainland. I quickly realised that I had to chose to follow Kami or Karavan to get the best out of the game. At first I was resentful of being 'forced' to chose one religion or the other - until I remembered that this is a Role Playing Game and the two sides give depth to the Lore.

The two competing religions are a vital part of the game, with the 'locking out' of TPs being just one aspect.

My reluctance to become a devoted follower to one of these religions was no more relevant than my reluctance to go hunting giant crustaceans at night with a 4 foot burning sword (in real life).

Of course if anyone finds the added difficulty of getting on in the game as a neutral more challenging and therefore more rewarding experience then good luck to them, but to argue that religious-neutral attitudes should have equality in the game is just silly IMHO. No offence :)

If you really need to strike a balance then sign up for one religion and play that for a while, then renounce it and sign up for the other religion. Could be interesting.

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It's bad luck to be superstitious . . .



Palta e decata, nan nec ilne matala.

When one goes on a journey it is not the scenery that changes, but the traveller

#23 Added by Marelli(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en] 

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I feel all the arguing about lore seems a bit silly, should not the argument be whether the penalties on neutral are too severe?

Were it decided the neutrals needed a compensation, there'd always be ways to make it work within the lore. Trytonists and Marauders have shown capable of teleporting too.

#24 Added by Iala(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en] 

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Making any penalty or reward fit inside the lore is important, so discussing how the current situation (which to many is clearly less than optimal) regarding neutrals can be ammended is related to the lore.

Trytonists of course would most likely go neutral given a viable option (I know I would, the main reason I'm now alligned is the penalties on travel that the neutral option imposes). We hide within the existing religions not by choice but necessity, as hiding in plain sight until the day Elias Tryton returns is a survival strategy.
Marauders are more tricky, as they're hostile to civilisations, not necessarilly kami or karavan (I can imagine multiple marauder groups, some alligned with either faction and others not alligned at all, just like there are Trytonists in any nation and some who may be stateless citizens).

#25 Added by Theharvester(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en] 

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its ironic but if such a third neutral way was to be implemented it would easily become imo the largest faction population, many gamers care very little in reality for religion in real life.

pvp implications would be interesting to say the least too ;)

#26 Added by Iala(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en] 

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Theharvester
its ironic but if such a third neutral way was to be implemented it would easily become imo the largest faction population, many gamers care very little in reality for religion in real life.

not so much because of the religious implications but because within Ryzom the community has just evolved that way.
In most mmos faction conflict is so severe (usually by design, sometimes by accident) that some publishers had to disable options to communicate between factions because it was just a constant flood of harassment and abuse, in Ryzom people (outside of pvp scenarios like opwars) work together despite being in opposing factions.

e.g. in wow there used to be such an option but Blizzard had to remove it. In Shaiya they went so far as to make it impossible to create toons in more than one faction per server and account (so if you want to try the other faction from your initial choice, you must use either another server and/or another account, there factions never see each other at all except in pvp content as they don't even share maps).

I think the largely cooperative environment that Ryzom creates draws in people who're overall more mature and "gentle", more likely to behave in civilised manner and less interested in conflict.
A neutral stance goes well with that, and within the Ryzom lore and gameplay mechanics there is ample room for it (again, unlike most other mmos out there, many of which, like Shaiya, are designed to have complete seperation of the factions outside of pvp, and sometimes complete separation of any players outside of towns and cities, as is the case with guild wars).

#27 Added by Kilgoretrout 1 decade ago [en] 

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Factions evolved in Ryzom well after we had established a cooperative community.Therefore the peaceful interaction was the norm. I am most proud of how we have tried to maintain that cooperation.-Kil

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#28 Added by Agasaya(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en] 

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I don't see what the big deal is. I am anti-everything and I have no problems getting around to zones using the neutral TPs. There are convenient neutral TPs near enough to all high level zones (5 min run at most). The only issue really comes to PR TPs though most PR zones can be accessed within 10 mins from the nearest neutral TP. Once you get the spawn points, that opens up your options even more (wink). I can only assume that there will be changes to those of us who declare Marauder and perhaps something will change for neutrals as well.

#29 Added by Inifuss 1 decade ago [en] 

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It was proposed during a Taliari meeting (long ago) that citizens with good standing could get the TPs for their nation, no matter their faction. I would rather see that implemented.

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Peace, Luv & Cookies,
Inifuss

#30 Added by Jarnys 1 decade ago [en] 

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Ever tried to get to the northern Lagoons of Loria?
Karavan/Neutral : easy (Neutrals go through the portal from Heretic's Hovel)
Kami: need to cross the region or sneek/fight through a good part of Heretic's Hovel

Or southwest Trench of Trials:
Kami/Neutral : easy (just use the Teleport to Grove of Umbra and use the Portal down there)
Karavan: need to cross the hole region

Southern part of Underspring
Kami/Neutral: just from the teleport through the portal
Karavan: fight/sneek through half the region or find your way through Zora and run to the portal

Northern part of Abyss of Ichor
Karavan/Neutral: just from the teleport through the portal
Kami: cross half the region (and through the portal depending on the chosen teleport)

btw.: all of those are great digging spots because of the amount of aggressive animals in the region
try crossing a region in digging gear without suffering dp ;-)

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