IDEAS FOR RYZOM

As a neutral I get a lot of pressure from all sides to join a faction. Not because people are dead set on me being in their faction, but because if i want to group with people it's a pain for all involved if i have to trek in from someplace with a neutral TP. Given the overwhelming gameplay advantages given to those who align, those of us who have chosen to be neutral usually do it for strong reasons. I get queasy at the notion of having to join a faction for the purely for transportation. A subscribing new member of the guild already left the game after 1 month when he found he was going to have to join a faction to get around at high levels, so I'm not alone here. In fact, the more pressure I get to join a faction to get TPs, the more I find myself regretting getting into this game at all. I love the game, but every time someone tells me to just join a faction to get the TP I regret subscribing and think I should quit as well. If you're going to pretend that any sort of RP happens at all, it's perverse to have such a severe gameplay penalty for neutrality.

I understand that the reason for enforcing no neutral TPs is to make joining a faction attractive. However, wouldn't be enough to have someone in each zone willing to sell anyone a TP for the right price, where the right price was extremely inflated and possibly modified by fame? Corrupt officials are everywhere, why aren't there any in PR or Void? Maybe it could cost 5-10x as much to get a TP if you are neutral in zones that currently require alignment. You'd be slightly rewarded for fame and penalized for neutrality.

I love the idea!

I would make new TP locations for Neutrals, and make it so ONLY neutrals can buy the TPs there.
But than what we would have for Neutrals instead of Breath of Ma Duk or Kiss of Jenna?

We could have "take 2 of these and call me in the morning"

I am not sure Kamis can be corrupted...I am not saying they are all "good" or choosing one side over another, but Kamis are singular in their goal and objectives. The lore also states they are all-seeing on Atys...so one who cheats would be known bu the others. And...all Kamis care about is Atys, what would you tempt them with? Cleasing the land? Well, that would raise your fame and you might as well just declare.

So, that excludes half of the TPs from your merc choices...leaving only Karavan TPs, and you could just go Karavan and RP being this merc group that "steals" TPs. Although, I have to assume Karavan would make some similar arguments about the incorruptability of their faction.

Alternately, if you are just not interested in fighting, there is a Kami guild that exemplifies the peace loving pacificism aspects of the Kami. The Fluffy Bunnies are a well respected guild that does not condone PvP (for the most part). Many see them as neutral, I see them as the epitomy of what it is to be Kami (the rest of us are KINOs, only striving to achieve that ability to set our own desires aside).

Other than that, I dont agree that neutrals should get access to TPs for the very reasons you suggested, it is the incentive to join a faction. Without that incentive, most of us would just go theist.

They have this problem is every MMO, don't they?

If they even offer a neutral option at all, they find they have to do it at severe penalties (usually missing out on whole bits of content) or watch 95% of the players go neutral :P

Every religion wants to believe they are incorruptible. Nonetheless, individuals can be found within all who are corruptible. Just ask my parents about their pastor who got indited. again.

As for Kami's being all knowing, that's preposterous. Sure, they have better surveillance technology than mere homins, but as experts in their own technology they must also know how to circumvent it. If we are to assume that they are remotely intelligent beings, it would not be remotely out of line to assume that a few of them have divergent interests. The same goes for kara.

This has nothing to do with an interest in fighting vs. pvp or what have you. This has frankly to do with the fact that I have serious problems with the lore of both factions. Although I don't do serious roleplay, I cannot help but think of my character as an individual on atys. She can get along with factions, sure. And she's happily ensconced in a neutral-friendly, loosely kami-aligned guild. She also has kara friends in strongly kara aligned guilds. She can understand reasons for joining either side but sees the cons as overwhelming. But if she were to actually go join a faction herself, I don't think I'd like her anymore. If I didn't like her I don't think I'd enjoy playing the game anymore. But when I get to the point where I'm too high level to advance with my team mates because of all the extra trekking and DPs, I won't enjoy playing the game so much either. If server population is indeed a problem, as other threads seem to indicate, this ought to be taken into account. If I, who haven't been playing long at all, have already seen people leave the game because they take this as an incentive to quit rather than, as Loryen suggests, simply an incentive to join a faction, it obviously isn't working as intended.

Marelli says that 95% of the players would go neutral if they weren't severely penalized. Assuming his figure is correct, that would indicate that there are serious problems with the factions. If factions add nothing to gameplay such that 95% of people would rather not have them, why use game mechanics to attempt to force people to be in them? If they do, in fact, add something important to gameplay, then it is a problem of lore: 95% of people find both factions to fall somewhere on the scale of irrelevant to repugnant and they are only in it for the TP pact, that qualifies as a game design Fail. If that is the case, the lore should evolve to the point where the other 95% want to be in a faction because they find it's lore compelling.

If the game designers want to encourage people to be in factions without evolving the lore in a direction that would make people want to be in factions for RP reasons, I think corrupt officials who make penalize neutrals moderately instead of making it overwhelmingly difficult to group with others is an entirely appropriate solution.

There is a guild fully nuetral. Their players have no issues with the nuetralism currently. They accept it and find ways around it. Just because they are higher level does not mean they cannot level. Plus, people are willing to help them get places if they cannot themselves.

I know quite a few people that would most likely go nuetral if TPs were no longer faction mandatory, probably myself included. The only reason I'm alligned right now is because of the TPs, the fact that i grinded my fame up, and my guild.

Being nuetral is more of a challenging experience. Allowing them to get TPs might take that thrill away from some that are nuetral for that purpose.

I do agree with Heulwen, and she brings up good points like everyone else here has. Neutrals do get the short end of the stick, but I also agree that lore wise the current stance on TP's works as an incentive to choose a side. I think the key point is bringing a balance that can fit the lore and work for everyone.

I don’t know how the ring terminal technology works, yet it’s a method of teleportation from one region to another, and it looks to me like it is homin made/controlled. This technology isn’t owned by Karavan or Kami? Why not use it to provide neutrals with access to high level areas and PR regions.

This terminal could be designed to work only for both Theist and Antitheist fame characters. One direction it can be introduced through is with Marauders. Perhaps a stolen technology sold through a black market that costs more than Kami and Karavan teleports.

You made me a sound bite. I did not say Kami are all knowing, I said they are all knowing on Atys. A whole universe worth of difference. And no, Kamis do not use technology, they are technology.

"They share a collective consciousness and it would seem that no living species may escape their perception, and consequently, their wrath if their laws of conservation are transgressed." ~ From the official Lore

I am guessing they are conglomerations of the "Dragon Ash" which permeates and contaminates all matter on Atys, as such they are personifications of Atys. Anything that happens to any of that matter which Atys (and homin) are composed of, they know. Don't beleive me? Try to find a hidden corner of Atys and keep digging...see what happens.

Not to mention, how does one have a differing opinion or divergent interest when you are part of a single consiousness. Kind of a contradiction.

Claims might be made about Karavan incorruptability, but they would be claims unsupported by lore...just speculation.

No offense meant, but from your comments you have not much researched the lore fo the factions. Just because we discuss Kamis eating souls and Jena eating babies in Universe does not mean either faction really does these things.

Then you are not really seeing yourselves living on Atys. Homin are primative peoples who believe Karavan and Kami are divinity. There is no, choosing a side, there is worshipping those who give you life and created Atys or there is apostasy. Any or all of these choice (for instance the Zorai brand of Kami worship generally acknowledges Jena's divinity too, and I think Marauders will end up anti-both) are acceptable...but Kami or Karavan are not your buddies who you casually decide to "team with" if you see yourself as living on Atys.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Theists acknowledge the probable divinity of both Kamis and Karavan, Apostates (which are not in game but should be) deny both. But, why should they give someone who does not fight for them special privledges?

This is unfortunate, you seem to be a thinker (even if we disagree on this single issue) and the community here thrives as much as it does because it in comprised of people like you...and that entices others. But, I also do not think making the game easier for those who refuse or not want to deal with the repercussions of their choices is a solution.

I have played this game for a long time and I have never seen anyone leave because they were forced to choose a faction. I have seen people leave because the conflicts between the factions (and intra-faction) got stressful. But, I have never seen anyone leave because they were forced to choose a faction. I have seen many people leave who did not like (or who could not figure out) the stanza system, does this suggest we should remove it?

In fact, were they to make this change...and a majority of people go neutral because it is the easy route and/or so they can get together and sing kumbayah with their previous enemies, this would "cheapen" the game for me and I would be looking to leave. For me the factional conflict and politics is the end-game.

No, correlation does not imply causation. Players and even guilds create cross faction alliances and friendships which makes them dislike being forced into faction. Although they are able to go grind their fame to the opposite faction to join their friends (and some have) it becomes a question of who has to sacrifice their current identity to do this. So, often it does not get done. Just like two guilds who might have an interest in merging, even if the merger would be mutually beneficial to all involved, they do not merge because each wants to maintain that identity.

Returning to the factions, the problem stems from people not paying attention to the lore. The lore says we are all religious devotees who believe either the Kami or the Karavan created Atys and all life on it, including us...and continue to revive us when we die. We believe they are gods. Think about the RL factions on earth...and that is fighting over gods we have no evidence for other than word of mouth. Imagine if those gods were clearly observable and would sometimes fight along-side of us, as is the case on Atys.

These cross faction friendships and alliances are the source of most of the internal stife I have seen in this game. I am definitely not saying people should not play with their friends or create these alliances (since the politics is my end-game, this just makes for more interesting circumstances). However, most of the people who I have known to leave game do so because they finally just get burned out, found something more interesting for awhile, or got mad because of the mixed allegences of others. It is hard to put your efforts into a faction when many members of that faction (whom you are relying upon for support) are closer to members of the opposing faction. And, it is painful and frustrating when your efforts are directly thwarted by the efforts (or lack thereof) of "allies" who are more closely allied with those you are fighting against.

That is the only problem with the factions I see (although I do not know of a good solution).

This lore exists, even if some/many decide not to see it or abide by it.

As I previously argued and further illustrated above, this corruption is not an option for Kamis who are of a single mind. This means you would have to buy off Karavan only anyways. Why not just go Karavan and RP being a neutral guild which pays off Karavan? Of course, followers of Karavan might dispute the viability of this option.

Anyways, I hope I showed an alternate perspective to some of the points you brought up. I know you still might not agree with me, and no worries. On the other hand, if you still believe as you did, keep arguing your case, maybe you will convert me.

And, I would be very interested in hearing your serious problems with either or both factions.

Oh, and there is an easy solution...start a neutral guild or find other ways of gathering neutrals to you...then team with those people and they do not have to wait for you when doing things together because you all run together.

And I know one can remain neutral because I was completely neutral for the first year or so that I played.

In Ryzom, you get an additional choice -- Neutral -- instead of being immediately thrown into one of the game's factions like so many other games. Choosing one faction or the other offers distinct penalties: you are a sworn enemy of the enemy faction. In-character, you have devoted your life to serving your chosen faction, which is at complete odds with the opposing faction.

Neutral has benefits and penalties.
Kami has benefits and penalties.
Karavan has benefits and penalties.

If suddenly, Neutral had no (or vastly fewer) penalties, everyone would jump to the Neutral ship. It is the same as if either Kami or Kara had no (or vastly fewer) penalties. If one faction can buy any teleportation ticket they want, that is where you will see the majority of the players residing.

There are people who would pick a faction based on the lore and story, and ignore the mechanics benefits that it offers. But with any game, regardless of how compelling a storyline is, expediency and practicality wins the hearts of the overwhelming majority compared to strong adherence to the story.

I do understand the issue here but in my mind I take that the price you pay for being neutral is a run. I know there are several neutrals out there that are factioned aligned only for the tps but choose to stay out of factioned based things like OP battles and such.

Just as an interesting tidbit, there were once plans for a sub-faction of Kami who sided with the Karavan, as well as a sub-faction of Karavan who sided with the Kami. This could be before the lore was changed to make the Kami a hive-mind, ofcourse, or it could be that even now the Kami aren't as much of a hive-mind as they'd like homins to believe.

My 95% is a just a guess; I assume if there's no benefits to factions over neutrality, only those caring about lore and RP will join a faction, and I estimate that's about 5% of an MMO playerbase.

My point was this debate is not just over TPs in Ryzom, but over how factions should be implemented in MMOs:
* In the WoW-model, there is no neutral, thus some complain there's no option to be neutral.
* In the Ryzom-model, there is a neutral option, but at severe penalties, thus some complain neutral is penalized.
* If neutral has no penalties, then it follow factions have no benefits, and thus become redundant.

There's no perfect choice, only preference.

Yeah, I have seen concept artwork for "demons". They looked like evil Kamis...I guess those were going to be the Karavan aligned ones =).

Since this is merely a thread suggesting how we correct the anti-neutral imbalance in the game, we needn't belabour interpretations of lore that don't relate to the question at hand. I will briefly address some of Loryen's claims about lore, but any extraneous dialog really belongs in-game or in a different thread.

Loryen, you choose to interpret bits of the lore you like at face value and disregard other bits of lore. And you mix in your own hypotheses and suggest that i treat them as fact as well. And since I have read the lore without drawing the same conclusions as you, you suggest that I have not read it. But lore is just that: lore, stories, legends, what have you. Before we learn any details about kami and kara we are told that:
"Two groups as powerful and mysterious as one another seek to control the destiny of Atys. Both possess unique powers, both claim to be the true guardians of the planet, both come to the aid of homins as long as they obey their rules, both are secretive about their origins and perhaps even their true intentions."

And so we learn that they are out to control us homins for their own unknown ends. The fact that they need something from us and are trying to control us should make us suspicious of their complete neutral honesty in descriptions that they and their followers contribute to subsequent lore. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for imagination and suspension of disbelief in a game world. I can imagine a great many far fetched things in pursuit of entertainment. I can believe in a possible world full of magic. I can go so far as to believe in a possible world in which people can jump. But it is beyond the bounds of my imagination to imagine a possible world in which 2 highly advanced cultures who are trying to manipulate me are both being completely honest with me but telling me the exact opposite story.

Add to that the in-lore prevarication about the kami's all-knowing nature (it should be obvious to any reader from context that we are only speaking about all-knowingness within atys and not the entire universe), and i cannot imagine that individual kamis are incapable of corruption. The lore says they "seem", that their behavior "suggests", and so on. Having really good surveillance and information-sharing abilities doesn't mean much. Evidence points to their surveillance being focused on the state of nature, not on each other.

Loryen writes: Why should they give someone who does not fight for them special privledges?

Because power corrupts. They have power. Therefore unless some other mechanism comes into play to allow neutrals and mauraders to get around, corruption lets you do it in a way that is completely consistent with the established game-world. Not kami or kara writ large, just the odd kami here, a kara there, stuck on duty in an out of the way place, somehow justifying to themselves chiseling a great deal of extra cash out of neutral players to let them slip into the teleport.

Erizon writes:
"Neutral has benefits and penalties.
Kami has benefits and penalties.
Karavan has benefits and penalties.
…
But with any game, regardless of how compelling a storyline is, expediency and practicality wins the hearts of the overwhelming majority compared to strong adherence to the story."

Let us examine the benefits and penalties.
As a neutral, I can teleport from inside pyr to outside of pyr without getting dizzy. I can teleport from inside zora to outside zora and avoid getting stuck on a cliff. The ability to TP halfway across a zone, but that honestly never comes up much. I've only had it come up once and there from a clicko. It has minimal if any strategic use. The cons: No high level teleports, no PR teleports.

As a karavan, one can get teleports to all the cities in the lake area and avoid quite a lot of annoying, slow swimming. One also gets teleports to PR and high level zones. The cons: if you let your kami fame slip from 0 to -.00001, you get attacked if you walk into a kami temple.

As a kami, one can get teleports to all the cities of intuition, avoiding quite a lot of jungle maze annoyance. One also gets teleports to PR and high level zones. The cons: if you let your karavan fame slip from 0 to -.00001, you get attacked if you walk into a karavan temple.

And we see that Erizon is absolutely right. Despite the obvious story-line reasons for remaining neutral, many players feel that not getting lost in zora isn't quite a compelling enough game mechanical reason to give up easy access to high level zones and so they give up on pretending there is a story at all, just to tech out the game system. This is, in fact, what I have been told to do time and time again: Don't treat it as a world, treat it as a story-less strategy game, and then you can justify aligning. I am surprised that players like loryen who attest that players who ignore lore "cheapen" the game for him do not, therefore, support an adjustment that would make acknowledging the lore less penalized by the game system.

I think my proposed solution of allowing neutrals access to a handful of PR teleports at extremely high costs will still not bring the advantages of neutrality anywhere close to the advantages of joining a faction. I am certainly not proposing that all of them be available at the right price, just a few. If saving up for a PR teleport is serious business, like saving up for a packer, this will not, as you fear, send hoardes of players denouncing their factions. It will simply make the game a little more fun for those of us who value neutrality.