IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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=)....just to clarify again. My concern is neutrals being used for target assisting in OP battles.. If they are obviously an enemy (or acting for the enemy), I want to be able to kill them (or not heal them as the case may be).

I have no hidden agendas or underlying meanings...I would just like to see what I simply asked for. It is not a game breaker for me...just offering a suggestion.

Nonea, there is absolutely NOTHING WG can do to prevent "leaks" in op wars. It's not unwillingness, incompetence, or whatever other negativity about the company you're trying to introduce here, it's the game mechanics which they inherited and which noone I think wants to change as it would change the entire nature of Ryzom.
It's not even limited to Ryzom. Even if you don't have an internet connection you can have contact with others outside of Ryzom.
So say you're Kami and want to spy on the Karavan preparations? Contact (using Skype, MSN, Facebook, Twitter, cellphone, smoke signals, carrier pigeon, whatever is convenient) a friend who plays the other faction and exchange information with them.

I've played mmos in the past where there was a very strict separation between factions. They played entirely different content, never saw each other outside of pvp battles. You couldn't even create toons in more than one faction per server (and there was no cross server pvp).
Yet some people still managed to have spies and allies in the opposing faction. In fact it was well known that some of the largest guilds on either side had alliances with each other, non-agression pacts, arranged outside the game itself, and would lure unsuspecting players from outside their guild into traps to be killed by their friends in the opposing faction, thus slowing down the progression of players not in their guild and ensuring their guild's status as top of the faction.

With multiple accounts, split between factions, this gets even easier as you can now have one toon parked at the opposing faction's tp (and part of that faction), several more along the approaches to the outpost to give warning of incoming hostiles, etc.

Get over it, there's absolutely nothing that can be done to change that, and anything you do do in-game that forces outsiders into your little pvp wars is only going to seriously annoy a lot of people who want nothing whatsoever to do with them.

My post really was misunderstood.
Loryen: I wasn't trying to say you have alterior motives.
Iala: I wasn't trying to say anything negative about WG.
What I'm trying to say is exactly what you said, Iala. That it's impossible to prevent leaks and we shouldn't try to do anything drastic to.
Killed my post so as not to cause any more confusion. And I apologise if anyone's feelings were hurt.
*goes to stand in a corner*

No no....no worries Nonea...my response was a general one, not aimed at you. And, I was confused my Iala's response because I thought you two said exactly the same thing (in your own ways).

not everything is about pvp :P go go drama

But it's so hard to dig dishonourably. :p

removing the neutral option is like saying switzerland doesnt exist :o}
what happens if ye want to be in that area and not be in op (made the game sooo much better) fun times?

Apt analogy...I respect the right of Switzerland to be neutral, but are you claiming this status gave the Swiss citizens the ability to wander around the battlefields of WW2 unscathed? And, to make the analogy more apt...the concern is not the magical invulnerability of the Swiss, rather the Axis and Allies claiming to be Swiss in order to take advantage of that power.

To avoid this situation, why not just remove the fictional magical ability of the Swiss? They can be neutral all they want and avoid war by avoiding the battlefields (just like they did in real life).

100% agree with above

If there is no neutral option, what is the default set for a person who enters the OP zone and doesn't pick a side?
What happens to players banned from one, or both, sides?

How does removing the neutral option actually fix any of the afore-mentioned problems? :)

And let's not forget how well the Swiss are doing out of the Euro crisis (relatively speaking)...

When your outlook is confined to a narrow point of view, it's easy "not to see" anything. An obvious neutral bias is quite evident in the negative connotations & "labels" attached to neutrals in some posts.

Throughout time most people didn't see a problem with things that didn't affect them. The slave owner for example, had a different outlook as to what was reasonable / unreasonable with respect to conditions slaves lived under.

Again, consider an example.... back in the day I am digging in FF when an attack on Magic Pole is going on. Though I am some 400m away from the OP, I am continually aggro dragged on simply because I am in a direct line between the kara TP and the OP. Where's the call to make any critter aggro'd by a PvP player to "ignore" neutrals ?

Please, don't forget that any change to the neutral option in OP fights would also affect the other shards. On leanon we got a large faction of neutral non-pvp players and many of us like to watch op battles.

We dont have the mentioned problems with heal-soaking und neutral flagged forward targetters anymore as they are forbidden by the op fight rules now (i think they are the same on all 3 shards).

That's the reason i suggested an option to ban neutrals as this would never happen to true neutrals because they are respected by all fighting factions. If anyone doesn't like me to stay inside asking me to leave is sufficient - which never happend by the way.

Staying far is not an option as I can't see what is going on during the battle. Flagging for the side currently inside the op area isn't working either as blood rage, grenades and bombs don't identify targets properly.

An option to ban neutrals would allow us to watch and you to remove mentioned pseudo-neutrals from the battle. The only problem I can see are players banned from all sides (example: forward enters neutral - gets banned - flags for defender - get banned - is forced to flag offender - gets banned from his own faction - what now?) Possibly they can be flagged as renegades comparable to the yrkanis arena.

You just gave it. =P

As you said, we all see our own little fraction of the world. I have never experienced aggro being dragged on me by PvPers while trying to dig, so I did not foresee that problem. Nor am I trying to cheapen or lessen anyone elses concerns. I was simply trying to suggest a solution for a problem I saw in my tiny tiny sliver of Atys. In my opinion, it remains the best solution presented here, but that is only my opinion and I guarantee it differs from the opinions of others based on what we value.

This, being the suggestion forum, is the place for anyone to make suggestions about the game. As far as I know, everyone is free to suggest solutions to problems they might see. I will admit, my ability to see might even be more limited than most...sure...but it does not change the fact that I saw a problem, and so I offered a solution; narrow as my vision, understanding, or reasoning may be.

If anyone disagrees with my suggestion, argue why the bad outweighs the good of solving the problem, how it does not solve the problem, or even (and this appears to be part of the concern here) how it creates bigger problems...but accepting dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter fallacies in arguing creates slippery slopes...saying no one should suggest improvements or fixes to the game because other problems (which may or may not have had a suggested fix) have not been fixed leaves us not fixing or improving anything.

At the before mentioned OP battle, there were, I would estimate, at least 120 people participating in PvP, I saw around 5-7 untagged individuals (including the ones who were suspiciously standing in the middle of our heal pods). If the developers feel the ability of those 5-7 to sit and "watch" the OP battle from middle trumps the 120 players right to have a battle unfettered by the repercussions and possible exploitation of overlapping changes in game mechanics (namely the fact that everyone now can have a multitude of unidentifiable alts, the game mechanic which allows neutrals in active OP regions, and the ability of teams to be comprised of PvPers and neutrals within this region), well then...that is their choice. I stand by my suggestion, until someone logically explains to me why it is lacking.

Just sayin'.

And I apologize for letting what appear to be biases slip out. Not intended if I offended.

But seriously, I am starting to feel like a troll in my own thread. I guess I could just unwatch it...

As indicated in the prev. post, were those players asked to leave ? Did the heal pod move and then the players followed so as to maintain their "link" to the pod, thereby confirming their nefarious role ? Could it be that the players just went afk or took a nap after putting toons in a safe place ?

I can understand your suspicions and frustrations but any solution that invoves restricting player's legitamate choices should not be considered.