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#54 Added by Mithian 5 years ago Multilingual

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I will try to be as neutral as possible and just give my opinion on this topic:

I think, that's IMPORTANT to remind what most of people are struggling with: The point here, is not to judge players that are using 4 toons at the same time. But, to use 4 toons at the same time while running 3RD PROGRAM to CONTROL ALL OF THEM.

I can, somehow, understand the statement of players that are running 4 toons only with the macro system proposed by Ryzom. And, yep, that those kind of players that are the most impacted by the change Ryzom Team is talking about, because they were doing it in all legality, but, they'll pay for a small among of players that are most probably not following this part of the CoC.

Here we are now. A MAJORITY of players, that are running only 1 or 2 accounts at the same time would be now equal with players that used to run 3 or 4 accounts at the same time. On a case or other, there will be a part of the community that will lose. And, most of the time, the minorities are losing.

Also, it seems like there is a mix for some people that think that, running an account, WITH or WITHOUT a 3RD PROGRAM is as not fairplay as the players that are doing it. But, imo, that's an another discussion.

Last edited by Mithian (5 years ago)

#55 Added by Magez 5 years ago [en]

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these half measures covered in hypocrisy are splitting the community, well done.
you should outlaw specific things. like no alts at OP. these new rules are causing grief for no reason.

things that made me scratch my head:

Tykus

using external software that allows the player to facilitate the management in question (botting)

redefine botting i guess. tip: read wiki on 'bots', tip2: meaning of 'no human input needed'.

Ulukyn

So you can log in and control 4 characters at the same time. But... we will also make more controls and the video can be a proof of automated actions.

can you edit the OT and put a proper explaination of what multiboxing is and what botting is, i see alot of people screaming syncronization and feel they are clueless.
azazor for example seems to think multiboxing=botting
they also seem to think anything below 1 second response time must be robotic voodoo. (based on last nights rocket convo)
i know a lot still play on ancient pc's but come on, everything modern has ms response time.

Naveruss

« Playing 4 accounts at once is not "a personal army". It is not even half a team. »

C’est une remarque sérieuse ? Quatre personnages en même temps, ça reste énorme, même si ça n’égalise pas une équipe complète ! Avec ce raisonnement, on pourrait aussi bien dire « Je joue dix personnages en même temps mais ça va, ce n’est même pas la moitié d’une grosse guilde.

so someone else makes something seem bigger then it is (army), and he compares it to a smaller size (team), and then you sarcasticly make it bigger again (guild) and call him out on it?
won't attack the original person that 'Make a mountain out of a molehill', right.

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#56 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en]

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Ati

Who is going to pay for the servers to run?

Me.

#57 Added by Heernis 5 years ago Multilingual

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Ich habe mir alles durchgelesen und irgendwie kommt etwas nicht zur Sprache: Das Design des Spiels, oder für welchen Zweck es gemacht wurde:

Eine Entscheidung des Spiel-Designs war die Forcierung zur Kooperation zwischen den Spielern.

Jedes Design kann auch andere Möglichkeiten der Anwendung bieten, die dafür nicht vorgesehen sind. Ich denke da an folgendes Beispiel:

Beispiel

Ein Prozessor ist dafür entworfen, Rechenaufgaben zu übernehmen. Nun gibt es bei Prozessoren, die hart arbeiten, auch eine Wärmeentwicklung, die nicht vermeidbar ist.

Man kann den Prozessor aktiv kühlen, heruntertakten, oder die Wärme auch ableiten lassen. Generell wird der Prozessor gekühlt oder heruntergetaktet, was eine Entscheidung des Designs ist.

Ein Missbrauch des Designs ist allerdings, wenn man die Wärme des Prozessor als Heizung der eigenen Wohnung verwendet, wofür dieser nicht vorgesehen war und ist, was aber niemanden davon abhält, diesen so zu verwenden.

Um es auf den Nenner zu bringen:

Ein Element der Designentscheidung von Ryzom ist die Kooperation zwischen den Spielern.
Dieses Designentscheidung kann natürlich auch zu anderen Anwendungsmöglichkeiten führen, wie zum Beispiel "Multiboxing".
Nun gibt es mehrere Möglichkeiten:
- Will man an der Designentscheidung festhalten, dass ein Spieler allein pro Charakter gleichzeitig spielbar ist? (den Prozessor aktiv kühlen)
- Will man an der Designentscheidung festhalten, dass ein Spieler allein pro Charakter gleichzeitig spielbar ist, aber das Spielen als Einzelner vereinfachen? (aktive Kühlung mit Heruntertakten des Prozessors)
- Oder will man "Multiboxing" aktiv unterstützen? (Prozessor als Heizung für die Wohnung verwenden)

Wenn jemand sagt: "Du spielst nicht richtig", dann meint er damit: "Benutz deinen verdammten AMD CPU nicht als Heizung für deinen Keller!" Heißt, das Spiel ist nicht für "Multiboxing" gemacht worden, es ist nur ein Missbrauch des Designs.

Man kann das tun, und es funktioniert. Einige haben auch Spaß daran. Aber es ist ein kurzes Vergnügen auf Kosten des Spiels. Viele werden gehen, da sie sehen, dass Ryzom nur "heiße Luft" produziert, wenn das Spiel wirklich weiter auf diese Weise genutzt wird.

Und nun an Beeficus und jeden anderen Multiboxer: Es ist nicht eure Schuld, dass ihr die Möglichkeit aktiv genutzt habt. Es wurde aber auch nicht aktiv beworben und auch wurde es nicht in der AGB garantiert. Es gab nie eine Garantie, dass der Verhaltenscodex, nie geändert wird. Was ich aber verstehe ist, dass die Ankündigung der Änderung plötzlich kam, was ich selbst nicht ganz verstehe. Wenn allerdings das Multiboxing der einzige Grund war, oder der überwiegende Grund war, Ryzom zu spielen, dann ist es hier ein falscher Schwerpunkt, den Ryzom nie promotet hat, sondern nur eine Notlösung ist oder war. Jetzt ist es nun so, dass immer mehr Multiboxing nutzen, und das schadet dem kooperativen Teil des Spiels, da Mutltiboxer die Notwendigkeit der sozialen Kooperation größtenteils umgehen. Und ja, es ist ein europäisches Spiel, das meist von europäischen Spielern gespielt wird in der europäischen Zeitzone. Wenn ich ein amerikanisches MMORPG spiele und es nur einen amerikanischen Server gibt, würde ich mich auch dieser Zeitzone nach Möglichkeit anpassen, wenn ich das Spiel ernsthaft spielen will. Nur meine Meinung dazu.

Und nun bin raus aus der Diskussion.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Heernis (5 years ago)

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Nicht klicken!

Spoiler: Hinweis/Hint/Remarque

#58 Added by Beeficus 5 years ago [en]

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The soul of Ryzom is and always was the community.

I am going to repeat myself for those still concerned about 3rd party software. I do not use 3rd party software to control my toons. I do not automate any actions beyond what the in-game macros allow. I do not need to. I have recorded my gameplay for Tykus, and I have been open about my setup. There are videos of it on youtube. Mithian, you have seen personally what I can do before the merge when you joined AA on Arispotle. I have even offered to allow the devs to use teamviewer to thoroughly examine my PC for any signs of 3rd party software.

This is nothing more than a vendetta. Harassment. Please put an end to this nonsense and enforce the code of conduct as it exists. Not just for me but for everybody who has suffered harassment and left the game over it already.

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#59 Added by Caellan 5 years ago [fr]

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**DEL** Out of topic

Last edited by Heli (5 years ago)

#60 Added by Generallee 5 years ago [en]

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So, I’m actually very good at breaking things down, and this discussion is obviously not about multi-boxing. It is about defining the purpose of Ryzom gaming and how stringently it should be enforced.

I see two very simple strategies here. Either you make this game for players and adapt to their will and needs, being flexible and only put up certain frames and boundaries to maintain stability. OR you decide to stick to the core principle of a MMORPG and remove any element that conflicts with the essence and ‘true’ way of playing the game (sounds like Azazors philosophy). One aspect of the latter would for instance be to remove the possibility to use multiple accounts at the same time because the game is not designed for this (even if its technically possible).

The first strategy will require some sacrifice of these core principles to maintain a happy and motivated player base. The second strategy will not, but it will alienate players in the long run. This is evident looking at the gaming industry as a whole and the strategies they have applied which led to the downfall of many beloved franchises (sticking to their own definitions of gaming, not the communities).

I can actually respect any decision here, but what I cannot respect, is a half-way, lazy and coward decision to try and keep some elements while eliminating others belonging to the opposite strategy. Let me clarify. If you decide to go for the more conservative approach and stick to the game design stringently and enforce any style or behaviour from players that is not in parity with the games core purpose (ie multiplayer and role play element) then you cannot at the same time keep certain elements which contradicts this, such as banning four accounts on at the same time but allowing two, or allowing people to play untagged etc. It would contradict what you want to achieve on the basis of eating a cookie but still keep it.

Personally I got hooked with Ryzom because it was a SANDBOX MMORPG which I thought was defined as a freedom to creating your own game style (ofc without breaking any formal rules), but it seems that this definition has now been challenged through a quasi-discussion about so called multi-boxing.

#61 Added by Paradera 5 years ago [en]

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**DEL** Out of topic

You all seem to be forgetting the huge role that ping plays, I also often see on my "Main" that my 2 healer alts heal at the same time.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Heli (5 years ago)

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#62 Added by Elke 5 years ago [en]

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**DEL** Out of topic

Edited 5 times | Last edited by Heli (5 years ago)

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#63 Added by Tykus 5 years ago Multilingual

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First of all, multiboxing is indeed the fact of ordering several characters at the same time in a legal way. Anything that refers to an external program also applies to a single character and is punishable by the code of conduct.https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/28406/1 &post187224=en#7
We decided to lower the number of characters that players can use simultaneously because it's obvious that already a small minority of players are affected.
As mentioned above, Ryzom is a game that can be played on small machines, no need to have a racing beast to run it properly.
It can indeed be considered a disadvantage compared to those who have computers capable of running several clients at the same time.
But that's not the point.

We decided to lower the number of characters played at the same time, on the one hand to put the focus back on what makes ryzom's own identity, which is cooperation.
We could have decided that only one client could be launched, but we've set our limit at 2, because in less populated timezones, having an avatar to help with drilling or healing can be quite acceptable, if not essential.

However, being able to afford a "challenging team" alone makes no sense at all. It's a part of the game that disappears. Moreover, as Ulukyn announced at last night's RF meeting, the upcoming additions will help to strengthen cooperation between the players, so our decision was intended to be in that direction.

I hear anger and recriminations, but not all change are easy.

In terms of multiple subbed accounts: A lot of you have multiple subbed accounts, to increase storage capacity, to be able to play different PR at different times. But they don't walk around with all their avatars on the bark at all times.

To have several subbed account, is not necessarily made to have half a team permanently with either.

We understand that some players have based their game strategy on this system and that this change is even more complicated for them. In the meantime, the discussion remains open, as long as everyone expresses themselves politely and stays on topic.

Answers dealing with the use of third party programs will be deleted as irrelevant.

Last edited by Tamarea (5 years ago)

#64 Added by Azazor 5 years ago [en]

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***DEL***

Hors sujet, restez dans la dicussion svp

Last edited by Tykus (5 years ago)

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fyros pure sève
akash i orak, talen i rechten!
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#65 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [en]

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Jorgensen

Maybe it is time to restart the Aniro server and have two different kinds of Ryzom with different codes of conduct.

Well, if you don't see the advantage created at all level by players using multiples account against those who play with only one character ...
Concrete example:
Digging, while a single toon can dig around 400 mats per 20 minutes someone who have 4 can dig 1.6k mats per 20 minutes ... if you don't see how this can bring a disrespectful advantage when grinding a craft branch ....

And +1 to Azazor.

A bit of topic to those who talked about alternate GH for storage. I agreed with you on this point but at the same time why not proposing to create guild missions to increase the storage size available for guilds?

#66 Added by Aleeskandaro 5 years ago [en]

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It was said this would be rapidly implemented

Tykus

In few days, i will post the complete explanation on the forum and when Ulu put the limit I will change de CoC

Please explain why after so many years of standstill there is a sudden urge to punish people who have been playing by the rules, when this effort could be put into implementing the things that have been on the timeline collecting dust.

Ulukyn

Sorry if you misunderstand it, maybe too obvious for us that's not possible to change the CoC like that without discussion.

Thanks Ulu for your response, but there seem to be different takes on this, your response appears to just caml everyone down rather than offering any real solutions, also why is the general attitude of CSR's in charge of informing this so aggresive? Please have all details cleared before you do inform something, the chaos you guys unleash out of lack of preparation sometimes defeats the whole well-intended purpose of adding to the game.

Tykus

Of course it's legal, we could have banned multiboxing... subscriptions have nothing to do with it... we don't prevent you from playing all your accounts, but only 2 by 2...

Also the reply above is not what you expect from someone who supposedly wants to hear player's opinions. It is that of someone wanting to impose a radical change would say, so please do speak up openly about what your plans for the game are and actually do hear players for once.
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I think in order to fix a problem we all agree should be fixed (Botting) you're taking a way too radical stand and punishing players who simply play more accounts, without any use of third party software involved. Why are you aiming to punish those who haven't done anything wrong? I'm sure theres a better way to identify and deal with botting client-side, network-side, or server-side. What is easy it not always what its best.

You also mentioned the real cause of this change to be foreseen imbalances in the new storyline events.

Ulukyn

And with the storyline that's what we're going to do. Make the story evolve and add new things...

And then the alts issue came up (on my side, as a developer).

With the storyline we will add new challenges. Sometimes the best group (which can be composed of only 4 players) will be rewarded. If the best team turns out to be 4 alts (and this is not impossible because it is in some cases an advantage) it will be rather disappointing for us.

Why not impose a partial restriction specifically for these new challenges then? Most of them already barely use the alts for training, you only see one or two players actually mutibox on OPs and others, maybe ban this specific action instead?

Last edited by Bisugott (5 years ago)

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Bisugott(Atys)

#67 Added by Flute 5 years ago [en]

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Hello Everyone,

I am reasonably new to the game (only a few months at most) and I play Ryzom because I like the playstyle (especially harvesting and crafting).

The biggest issue is although a lot of the content I like in the game can be done solo, to do it effectively I really need another person and sometimes a 3rd to assist. For example digging, yes can do solo, with a CP’er can get 4+ times the resources in the same timespan, with a 3rd person I can now do it safely in areas where this is a lot of agro mobs (which incidentally will always prioritise me over the juicy herbivore that’s between it an me).

I love the freedom to play the way I want. It even has a section on the front page about Freedom.

Freedom: There is nothing more important

In Ryzom there are no classes to choose. Develop all the skills of your character harmoniously or choose to concentrate on one skill and become a master. You are not forced to choose a faction when you create your character. Join a faction during your journeys, or not.

You don't have to fight in PvP, but you can. Join a guild whenever you are ready for it and build up alliances, or just start your adventures alone or with your friends.

Search for the most valuable materials on Atys to create your own unique equipment with which it is easier to defend yourself against your enemies. Hunt the mightiest bosses on Atys. Conquer an outpost and drill materials for your guild.

Do your own thing or make an impact on the politics. Develop your character in the way you want to and start your own story.

I also love to socialise and there are some very helpful people in chat which is great. But when I play, chat in universe is a majority of languages I cant understand, which I am fine with because I am also happy to play solo. Again your front page has a section on community.

Community: A real one.

Ryzom is available in German, English, Spanish, French and Russian, and features a great multilingual community that is mature, helpful and friendly. Everyone can talk and roleplay in their own language; therefore, it is not mandatory to speak a foreign language.

Join us to be part of the family!

Now to the issue at hand for the decision, Cooperation. You cant force people to cooperate, and as I have shown (in the highlighted sections in the quote) your front page even states I can play my own way which may or may not be solo).

Two comments one after the other by Tykus seem to be conflicting in the desire for cooperation.

Tykus

We decided to lower the number of characters played at the same time, on the one hand to put the focus back on what makes ryzom's own identity, which is cooperation.

If the main focus of Ryzom is cooperation there is nothing on the Ryzom main page that states this, actually the thing that stands out is Freedom: There is nothing more important

Tykus

We could have decided that only one client could be launched, but we've set our limit at 2, because in less populated timezones, having an avatar to help with drilling or healing can be quite acceptable, if not essential.

I wouldn't say essential unless I wanted to dig in q250 areas, and even then 2 is not enough for digging with any form of safety. I am sure a lot of people can do it, but as I said I am new, I enjoy digging and crafting so therefore quite squishy.

I did not spend much time looking through the forums or the main page for anything about cooperation and couldn't find it, but if its a desired identity for Ryzom I should not have to look far, it should be on the main page with Community, Freedom etc.

For all my limited experience (other than OP battles, which I will never be a part of as so far they have all happened at 2am or 3am my time and a game is not so important that I will get up at that time to play it) Ryzom does not reward or enforce cooperation at all. There are no mechanics in the game that distribute loot between all parties involved in the hunt/dig etc. All kill/loot missions must be repeated multiple times as only one character gets credit for a kill.

So for the majority of the game cooperation is not needed at all therefore I cant understand a decision to try and enforce cooperation(which is not mentioned of the main web page) that goes against freedom(which is on the main web page as "There is nothing more important".

Sorry for the ramble.
Flute

#68 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [fr]

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About digging in q250 zone with a fair enough safety, it will come with experience.
Digging in PR is another story specially in q250 zone with the predictable kitin patrol, but same with experience you can manage to be quite safe (learning how to detect pat etc).
For sup digging, alts are giving a non-negligible advantage, you took way less time to emptying a node which result of:
- less troubles with climatic conditions change (you can dig more in a time frame);
- increasing your own safety while digging (you don't need others real people to dig a node while the said spot is really dangerous to be in);

Same goes for super nodes in PvP prime. The use of alts for this purpose is killing what should stay an "end-game" challenge for many others.
Supreme materials are in the top and they should stay hard to collect (digging supreme ask for involvement in this task).
If you are against PvP you can still dig sup on traditional spot in others prime area, but they remain dangerous because prime roots are a very dangerous place by nature and once again the use of alts reduce a lot this dangerousity.

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