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#47 Added by Nathanel 5 years ago [fr]

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quote Tykus:
we have decided to no longer tolerate the control of more than two characters

quote Ulukyn:
This is an open discussion to get opinion of everyone.
Sorry if you misunderstand it, maybe too obvious for us that's not possible to change the CoC like that without discussion.
Ryzom forge are, for us, a space for discussion with players, can explain our misstake...

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I think at first it was a decision and then became a discussion ? maybe you need to instruct your CSR better if it was planned the way you say, ulukyn ... decided is a very finite word

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Nathanel (5 years ago)

#48 Added by Azazor 5 years ago [fr]

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Et voilà, on y est. Le florilège de perles.

- Le chantage: "attention, on va partir, vrai de vrai!"
- Les critiques gratuites: "z'êtes trop nuls les CSR (mais par contre je m'engage pas hein, on risquerait de voir que je vaux pas mieux, c'est plus facile de critiquer sans rien faire d'autre)".
- Et son flot de: "oui mais tu comprends, nous on a une façon de jouer, laissez-nous faire ce qu'on veut."

Donc désolé d'avance, mais je vais arrêter de prendre des gants:
Ce n'est pas vous qui faites le jeu. C'est déjà un sacré privilège que vous avez sur ce jeu (et qu'on ne retrouve que rarement ailleurs) qu'on vous écoute un minimum et prenne en compte vos suggestions. Mais le jeu, c'est pas vous (et encore moins les pleureurs). C'est pas vous avec vos quelques sous dépensés en abonnements qui faites le jeu.
Ryzom, s'il tient depuis toute ses années, c'est grâce à ceux qui se décrassent tous les jours à vous pondre du code, à écrire et jouer des event, à modérer les forum et les chat, à lire vos tickets et essayer tant bien que mal d'y répondre. Tous ces bénévoles qui en prennent plein la tronche parfois de la part de joueurs qui savent mieux que tout le monde ce qu'il faut faire mais qui jamais ne postulent pour devenir bénévole. Ah c'est facile hein de dire faut faire ci ou ça. Mais allez donc mettre les mains dans la sciure pour voir. Vous verrez que vos demandes, c'est pas si simple. C'est grâce aux bénévoles que le jeu n'a pas fermé.
Après je dis pas, le jeu c'est pas que les bénévoles, c'est aussi les joueurs, ceux qui jouent avec les autres, qui essaient de créer quelque chose en jeu. Mais pas les individus qui la jouent solo dans leur coin parce que "oui mais MOI c'est MA façon de jouer". Si c'est ça votre façon de jouer, alors désolé, mais ça craint, vous n'avez absolument rien compris à ce qu'est un MMORPG. Dans ce cas, changez de type de jeu, et tchao.

Last edited by Azazor (5 years ago)

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#49 Added by Jayneylou 5 years ago [fr]

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Why can't we all just have one character and learn to play together? Why is it necessary to create an entire family? The point of the game is now and has ALWAYS been for us to work together. It was designed so that no player is too low. We can all deliver something to the game. Baby healers provide back up heals, baby diggers can CP for high levels. Without the community, dare I say it, this becomes another MMorpg with all players out to get the best stuff! That was never the point of Ryzom. That is why, we as mostly mature adults return to it time and time again. If you all come along with a team ready made, then what is the point for us who only play one character at once? I certainly could not afford two accounts and I am not adept enough to play two characters.
This should be a mature discussion and not result in hysterics.
Jayne

#50 Added by Mathimat 5 years ago Multilingual

Multilingual | Français | [English]

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So if I listen to you azazor there is only one way to play this game, and apparently that way is exactly how YOU want me to play it.

I didn't see anything about that in the CoC, being forced to play with others, roleplaying...

This is a game with free gameplay, with rules okay, but no obligations on how to play it, as long as we respect everyone. At least this is how it used to be.

Nothing forces everyone to play the same way, and yes, I enjoy playing Ryzom, and it's not up to you to decide wether this is my type of game or not.

If no discussion is possible when GMs take such important decision, then I think it means that Ryzom as "lost his soul" as you keep saying.

#51 Added by Soleya 5 years ago [fr]

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Azazor

Et voilà, on y est. Le florilège de perles.

- Le chantage: "attention, on va partir, vrai de vrai!"
- Les critiques gratuites: "z'êtes trop nuls les CSR (mais par contre je m'engage pas hein, on risquerait de voir que je vaux pas mieux, c'est plus facile de critiquer sans rien faire d'autre)".
- Et son flot de: "oui mais tu comprends, nous on a une façon de jouer, laissez-nous faire ce qu'on veut."

Donc désolé d'avance, mais je vais arrêter de prendre des gants:
Ce n'est pas vous qui faites le jeu. C'est déjà un sacré privilège que vous avez sur ce jeu (et qu'on ne retrouve que rarement ailleurs) qu'on vous écoute un minimum et prenne en compte vos suggestions. Mais le jeu, c'est pas vous (et encore moins les pleureurs). C'est pas vous avec vos quelques sous dépensés en abonnements qui faites le jeu.
Ryzom, s'il tient depuis toute ses années, c'est grâce à ceux qui se décrassent tous les jours à vous pondre du code, à écrire et jouer des event, à modérer les forum et les chat, à lire vos tickets et essayer tant bien que mal d'y répondre. Tous ces bénévoles qui en prennent plein la tronche parfois de la part de joueurs qui savent mieux que tout le monde ce qu'il faut faire mais qui jamais ne postulent pour devenir bénévole. Ah c'est facile hein de dire faut faire ci ou ça. Mais allez donc mettre les mains dans la sciure pour voir. Vous verrez que vos demandes, c'est pas si simple. C'est grâce aux bénévoles que le jeu n'a pas fermé.
Après je dis pas, le jeu c'est pas que les bénévoles, c'est aussi les joueurs, ceux qui jouent avec les autres, qui essaient de créer quelque chose en jeu. Mais pas les individus qui la jouent solo dans leur coin parce que "oui mais MOI c'est MA façon de jouer". Si c'est ça votre façon de jouer, alors désolé, mais ça craint, vous n'avez absolument rien compris à ce qu'est un MMORPG. Dans ce cas, changez de type de jeu, et tchao.

[FR]
Je vois pas vraiment le rapport... Il s'agit pas de critiquer les GM (même si certains en profitent peut-etre pour se defouler), il s'agit de critiquer une décision qui semble avoir été prise sans grande réflexion et arbitrairement. C'est pas parce qu'on est pas GM ou bénévole qu'on a pas le droit d'essayer de discuter que je sache. Je pense justement que si, c'est nous qui faisons le jeu, pas uniquement les GM ou les benevoles, et c'est comme ca que ca a toujours fonctioné sur ryry, par discussion entre ceux qui implémentent et ceux qui jouent. Ce ne nous empeche pas de respecter et remercier les GM et ceux qui passent du temps de facon volontaire ou non à travailler sur le jeu.

[EN]
I don't really see your point... It's not about criticizing the GMs (even if some might be letting off steam), it's about criticizing a decision that has been taken without much reflection. Just because we are not GMs or volunteers doesn't mean we have nothing to say. I think that we make the game, not only the volunteers and GMs, and that's how it's always been on ryzom, by exchanges between those who implement and those who play. This doesn't keep us from respecting and thanking GMs and those who spend time working on the game.

#52 Added by Azazor 5 years ago [fr]

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mathimat

Donc si je t'ecoute azazor il n'y a qu'un seul style de jeu, qui apparement est le même que le tien.

Je n'ai rien vu ecrit dans le Coc qui me forcait à ne jouer que avec d'autres joueurs.

C'est un jeu libre avec des règles d'accord, mais pas avec des obligations sur la facon de jouer, tant que tout le monde est respecté. En tout cas c'est comme ça que je voyais le jeu.

Rien ne nous oblige à jouer de la meme facon et si, contrairement à ce que tu dis, j'apprécie quand meme ce jeu, c'est pas a toi de dicter si c'est mon genre de jeu ou pas.

Si aucune discussion n'est possible quand les GMs prennent une decision aussi importante, alors c'est que ryzom a "perdu de son essence" comme vous dites.

En utilisant le multiboxing, vous ne jouez pas juste dans votre coin. C'est pas la même chose que de jouer réellement solo, avec un unique perso connecté en même temps. On vous l'a déjà expliqué. Je ne vais pas revenir dessus.

Et sinon le dialogue, il est là. Mais le dialogue, c'est pas: "ouin si on fait ça, ben j'm'en vais". C'est chacun qui argumente, sans chantage à la noix. Et ensuite, les règles seront instaurées. ça déplaira à une partie des joueurs. C'est pas grave. S'ils ne sont pas content et trouvent les nouvelles règles insurmontables, et bien au revoir. Personne n'est obligé de jouer.

Encore une fois, ce n'est pas vous (ni moi d'ailleurs) qui édictons les règles du jeu, ni les principes de base d'un MMORPG (aucun n'accepte le multiboxing que je sache). C'est l'équipe, en écoutant éventuellement les joueurs, sans pour autant les suivre forcément. Si vous n'êtes pas d'accord, devenez bénévole et changez les choses.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Azazor (5 years ago)

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#53 Added by Erisapple 5 years ago [fr]

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This is a game that's supposed to value each persons gaming style. I feel like they're about to fail at that.

Some say alts are bad because these people aren't teaming with other players and that's not how a mmorpg should be played... There is at least one person who states they have never and will never team with anyone because they like the satisfaction of being able to do it alone. But they are very social. So is this person wrong? Should they spend money elsewhere?

Someone brought up boss camping... How is a few alts looking out for a spawn different from a guild or faction posting players to do the same? And the same would go for digging.

People keep saying that Beef can't be that good or that he's playing less efficiently than he used to. For all you know something has happened to make him not as fast at alt-tabbing or how ever he does it. We all have good and bad days and IRL distractions. I have watched people afk digging and it's never been him.

These people that have multiple alts are helpful to the community, both new and old players, with advice and gear. Not to mention the added real world money they're paying. The money is a good part of what keeps all of us being able to log in. Servers aren't volunteers and accept gratitude as payment.

This isn't like some other games where you get uber, kick the whole servers rump and then sell your toon for top dollar. Alts don't hurt anything any more than an organized guild or faction does. If you don't like playing with alts, don't have one. If you don't want to team with an alt, ask the person to leave it behind or don't team. It's pretty simple.

As for PVP and OPs...Get over it. Every army has stupid drones that just do what they're told. If you feel out numbered or whatever, recruit more. Offer a collage fund or something. There will always be a winner and loser and the tides will always turn.

What needs to be dealt with is people that are actually using 3rd party programs to run alts. No matter if it's 10 alts or 1. Deal with that, not the people that are thought to be too good to be true. The dev team needs to work on that not dictating how paying players live on Atys.

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#54 Added by Mithian 5 years ago Multilingual

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I will try to be as neutral as possible and just give my opinion on this topic:

I think, that's IMPORTANT to remind what most of people are struggling with: The point here, is not to judge players that are using 4 toons at the same time. But, to use 4 toons at the same time while running 3RD PROGRAM to CONTROL ALL OF THEM.

I can, somehow, understand the statement of players that are running 4 toons only with the macro system proposed by Ryzom. And, yep, that those kind of players that are the most impacted by the change Ryzom Team is talking about, because they were doing it in all legality, but, they'll pay for a small among of players that are most probably not following this part of the CoC.

Here we are now. A MAJORITY of players, that are running only 1 or 2 accounts at the same time would be now equal with players that used to run 3 or 4 accounts at the same time. On a case or other, there will be a part of the community that will lose. And, most of the time, the minorities are losing.

Also, it seems like there is a mix for some people that think that, running an account, WITH or WITHOUT a 3RD PROGRAM is as not fairplay as the players that are doing it. But, imo, that's an another discussion.

Last edited by Mithian (5 years ago)

#55 Added by Magez 5 years ago [en]

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these half measures covered in hypocrisy are splitting the community, well done.
you should outlaw specific things. like no alts at OP. these new rules are causing grief for no reason.

things that made me scratch my head:

Tykus

using external software that allows the player to facilitate the management in question (botting)

redefine botting i guess. tip: read wiki on 'bots', tip2: meaning of 'no human input needed'.

Ulukyn

So you can log in and control 4 characters at the same time. But... we will also make more controls and the video can be a proof of automated actions.

can you edit the OT and put a proper explaination of what multiboxing is and what botting is, i see alot of people screaming syncronization and feel they are clueless.
azazor for example seems to think multiboxing=botting
they also seem to think anything below 1 second response time must be robotic voodoo. (based on last nights rocket convo)
i know a lot still play on ancient pc's but come on, everything modern has ms response time.

Naveruss

« Playing 4 accounts at once is not "a personal army". It is not even half a team. »

C’est une remarque sérieuse ? Quatre personnages en même temps, ça reste énorme, même si ça n’égalise pas une équipe complète ! Avec ce raisonnement, on pourrait aussi bien dire « Je joue dix personnages en même temps mais ça va, ce n’est même pas la moitié d’une grosse guilde.

so someone else makes something seem bigger then it is (army), and he compares it to a smaller size (team), and then you sarcasticly make it bigger again (guild) and call him out on it?
won't attack the original person that 'Make a mountain out of a molehill', right.

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#56 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en]

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Ati

Who is going to pay for the servers to run?

Me.

#57 Added by Heernis 5 years ago Multilingual

Multilingual | Deutsch | [English]

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I've read through everything and somehow something doesn't come up: The design of the game, or what purpose it was made for:

One decision of the game design was to force cooperation between the players.

Each design can also offer other application possibilities that are not intended for this purpose. I think of the following example:

example

A processor is designed to perform computing tasks. Now, processors that work hard also generate heat that cannot be avoided.

You can actively cool the processor, downclock it, or let the heat dissipate. In general, the processor is cooled or downclocked, which is a design decision.

However, it is an abuse of the design if the heat of the processor is used to heat your own home, for which it was not and is not intended, but this does not prevent anyone from using it in this way.

To put it in a nutshell:

cooperation

Do you want to stick to the design decision that one player alone per character is playable simultaneously? (actively cooling the processor)
Do you want to stick with the design decision that one player per character is playable at the same time, but make it easier to play as a single player? (active cooling with processor down-clocking)
Or do you want to actively support "Multiboxing"? (use processor as heating for the apartment)

If someone says: "You're not playing right", he means: "Don't use your damn AMD CPU as a heater for your basement!" Means the game is not made for "multiboxing", it's just a misuse of design.

You can do that, and it works. Some people have fun with it. But it is a short pleasure at the expense of the game. Many will leave because they see that Ryzom only produces "hot air" if the game is really continued in this way.

And now to Beeficus and every other Multiboxer: It is not your fault that you have actively used the possibility. But it was not actively promoted and it wasn't also guaranteed in the terms and conditions. There was never a guarantee that the code of conduct would never be changed. But what I do understand is that the announcement of the change came suddenly, which I do not fully understand myself. However, if multiboxing was the only reason, or the predominant reason, for playing Ryzom, then this is a false focus that Ryzom never promoted, but is or was only a stopgap solution. Now the situation is that more and more people are using multiboxing, and this is damaging the cooperative part of the game, as mutltiboxers largely avoid the need for social cooperation. And yes, it is a European game, which is mostly played by European players in the European time zone. If I play an American MMORPG and there is only one American server, I would also adapt to this time zone if possible if I want to play the game seriously. Just my opinion.

And now I'm out of the discussion.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Heernis (5 years ago)

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#58 Added by Beeficus 5 years ago [en]

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The soul of Ryzom is and always was the community.

I am going to repeat myself for those still concerned about 3rd party software. I do not use 3rd party software to control my toons. I do not automate any actions beyond what the in-game macros allow. I do not need to. I have recorded my gameplay for Tykus, and I have been open about my setup. There are videos of it on youtube. Mithian, you have seen personally what I can do before the merge when you joined AA on Arispotle. I have even offered to allow the devs to use teamviewer to thoroughly examine my PC for any signs of 3rd party software.

This is nothing more than a vendetta. Harassment. Please put an end to this nonsense and enforce the code of conduct as it exists. Not just for me but for everybody who has suffered harassment and left the game over it already.

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#59 Added by Caellan 5 years ago [fr]

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**DEL** Out of topic

Last edited by Heli (5 years ago)

#60 Added by Generallee 5 years ago [en]

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So, I’m actually very good at breaking things down, and this discussion is obviously not about multi-boxing. It is about defining the purpose of Ryzom gaming and how stringently it should be enforced.

I see two very simple strategies here. Either you make this game for players and adapt to their will and needs, being flexible and only put up certain frames and boundaries to maintain stability. OR you decide to stick to the core principle of a MMORPG and remove any element that conflicts with the essence and ‘true’ way of playing the game (sounds like Azazors philosophy). One aspect of the latter would for instance be to remove the possibility to use multiple accounts at the same time because the game is not designed for this (even if its technically possible).

The first strategy will require some sacrifice of these core principles to maintain a happy and motivated player base. The second strategy will not, but it will alienate players in the long run. This is evident looking at the gaming industry as a whole and the strategies they have applied which led to the downfall of many beloved franchises (sticking to their own definitions of gaming, not the communities).

I can actually respect any decision here, but what I cannot respect, is a half-way, lazy and coward decision to try and keep some elements while eliminating others belonging to the opposite strategy. Let me clarify. If you decide to go for the more conservative approach and stick to the game design stringently and enforce any style or behaviour from players that is not in parity with the games core purpose (ie multiplayer and role play element) then you cannot at the same time keep certain elements which contradicts this, such as banning four accounts on at the same time but allowing two, or allowing people to play untagged etc. It would contradict what you want to achieve on the basis of eating a cookie but still keep it.

Personally I got hooked with Ryzom because it was a SANDBOX MMORPG which I thought was defined as a freedom to creating your own game style (ofc without breaking any formal rules), but it seems that this definition has now been challenged through a quasi-discussion about so called multi-boxing.

#61 Added by Paradera 5 years ago [en]

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**DEL** Out of topic

You all seem to be forgetting the huge role that ping plays, I also often see on my "Main" that my 2 healer alts heal at the same time.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Heli (5 years ago)

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