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#137 Added by Senshi 5 years ago [fr]

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Mithian

Je plussoie l'idée de Kyriann. C'est une solution qui pourrait calmer une bonne partie des gens qui craignent pour l'utilisation d'un logiciel en cas d'utilisation de plus de 2 personnages.

En ce qui concerne le " Oui, enfin, on apporte une preuve une fois, qui te dit qu'il respectera la charte après? " , Bah... personne. Mais, à un moment, il faut une part de confiance et arrêter la paranoïa. Tu prouve que tu peux jouer sans triche, t'as l'accès.

La solution qui conviendra à tous n'existe pas.

En ce qui concerne la Storyline et les challenges qu'elle pourra comporter, une bonne communication à ce sujet de la part de la Team Ryzom peut être envisagée. J'imagine qu'il y aura plusieurs challenges espacés dans le temps, donc, de quoi tester la théorie, et, si ce n'est pas respecté, alors, peut-être resserer les vis.

Et qu'elles sont les conditions pour avoir ce fameux passe droit ? Bien contrôler quatre personnages ? Si c'est le cas, pour bien contrôler quatre personnages il faut créer quatre comptes et donc avoir le droit de les connecter en même temps, c'est donc le serpent qui se mord la queue. Je trouve cette solution un peu trop élitiste en plus de rajouter un travail très subjectif au staff...

Il va falloir me décrire concrètement la manière de procéder, les tenants et les aboutissants pour être accepté en tant que joueur multi-compte ou non pour que je prenne cette solution en considération comme étant une meilleure solution que de limiter le nombre de multi-compte a deux en simultanée. Surtout qu'avec cette solution, paranoïa ou non, il suffit de passer l'épreuve pour commencer ou recommencer a triché, car un logiciel tiers de multiboxing c'est comme un wallhack, tu peux l'activer et le désactiver très rapidement. Et cela ne règle pas le problème que le fait de contrôler quatre personnages en simultanée reste quoi qu'il arrive un avantage dans bien des domaines comparé à ceux qui n'en contrôle qu'un ou deux.

*Tousse* Au pire on autorise l'utilisation de logiciel tiers de multiboxing et le problème n'en est plus un et cette solution a le mérite de ne faire perdre du temps a personne et de ne pas être une solution facilement outre-passable. Dans cette histoire, ce qui me pose un soucis n'est pas le fait de contrôler quatre personnages mais belle est bien le désavantage que cela peut apporter à ceux qui n'en contrôle qu'un, dans mon cas je n'irai pas m'embéter à faire du pvp avec quatre comptes en simultané tant c'est une galére... Mais si ca devient autoriser de tricher, vas-y roule, on va tous finir avec trois robots en follow dernieres le personnage principal, Ryzom s'en portera que mieux au niveau des finances lol !

Last edited by Senshi (5 years ago)

#138 Added by Soleya 5 years ago Multilingual

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Everyone seems to be calming down a bit, taking every argument into account, that's nice :) .

I completely agree with Kyriann and Mithian on that idea of a solution. As they say, if when you get a ticket once you can prove that you can play with 3 alts for a while without struggling and without cheating, then you're "free to go".

Then the imbalance issue due to the alts on Outpots wars for instance is still a problem. So here's a suggestion :
I believe that the CSR's decision implied that : If, after the change in the CoC, we walk by someone using three alts and ticket them, with a video as proof, then they could be punished since (I'm using approximately Tykus's words during RF, if I remember correctly) "when you have three alts following you and obeying you, it's very easy to see and detect". So we just do that to estimate if someone has his alts with him or not.
So why not establishing a list of activities that you are not allowed to do with alts (like OP wars or PvP for example), and apply the previous principle only in these cases? This way, if you are just training by yourself with your alts, if you don't bother anyone, then no need for a ticket. Meanwhile, on an OP war or during PvP, if you're seen (and ticketed) using your alts and if it's "easy to see and detect" on any video that will be used for proof, then you can be punished/banned.

#139 Added by Magez 5 years ago [en]

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how am i going to record my screen and keyboard+mouse at the same time? will be one hell of a messy video.

edit:
can try with phone i guess....

Last edited by Magez (5 years ago)

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#140 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en]

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Magez

how am i going to record my screen and keyboard+mouse at the same time? will be one hell of a messy video.

edit:
can try with phone i guess....

https://en.wiki.ryzom.com/wiki/Making_evidence

#141 Added by Jorgensen 5 years ago [en]

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Should we also report people with no alts, but who still might be cheating with third party tools? For instance recharging enchants too fast or always healing their partner instantly when the health drops to exactly the same level? That sort of thing is very suspcious. I think they should have to provide home videos of their gameplay too just to be safe. What about people who never talk? Or people who talk really weird like an AI? Some of those are probably automated systems levelling while the player sleeps. This is a big problem. We know that tens of thousands of man-hours have been spent by the world's top developers to create undetectable cheat-clients for ryzom the game with 100 bored middle-aged players. We should maybe just report a few general players each day for random spot-checks. I definately think we should force every suspicious player (you know the type) to install a small, unobtrusive camera in their gaming room, over their shoulder, so the devs can watch them play at any time. In case cheating. Why would you disagree unless you have something to hide?

I'm just throwing ideas around here. we don't need to implement every single one.

#142 Added by Hendat 5 years ago Multilingual

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Hi Beeficus,

I was one of the people watching your live performance.

First of all, thank you for sharing.

A few points for reflection:

I'm impressed by your multiboxing skills, your ability to move between your four accounts and your graphic organization. In short, you're using multiboxing to its fullest potential.
I can see how someone who hasn't seen this video might think you're cheating. There's no doubt about it, you're following the code of conduct. I'm not sure that when the code of conduct was put in place it was imagined that people would exploit multiboxing to such an extent. One could say that you are on the edge of legality.
If everyone used multiboxing in your way, I'm not sure I would enjoy playing Ryzom.
I understand your sense of unfairness about a possible change in the code of conduct. You've invested all these years paying four accounts, you've developed a way to play, and now it's all being questioned.
One solution could be the acquired advantage. Those who are playing with multiple accounts as of May 12, the date of the first post in this thread, can continue to play. That way, Beeficus would keep its advantage, and it would prevent an army of gamers from using multiboxing as it does. Then there's the question of outposts. Perhaps, quite simply, banning the Alts from the outposts.
Problem for those who have several accounts with the same IP address. Normally, an account has a payment card and a payment card has a name. If you have the same name twice, you can consider that it is the same person.

Edited 5 times | Last edited by Hendat (5 years ago)

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Hendat

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#143 Added by Soleya 5 years ago Multilingual

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Jorgensen

Should we also report people with no alts, but who still might be cheating with third party tools? For instance recharging enchants too fast or always healing their partner instantly when the health drops to exactly the same level? That sort of thing is very suspcious. I think they should have to provide home videos of their gameplay too just to be safe. What about people who never talk? Or people who talk really weird like an AI? Some of those are probably automated systems levelling while the player sleeps. This is a big problem. We know that tens of thousands of man-hours have been spent by the world's top developers to create undetectable cheat-clients for ryzom the game with 100 bored middle-aged players. We should maybe just report a few general players each day for random spot-checks. I definately think we should force every suspicious player (you know the type) to install a small, unobtrusive camera in their gaming room, over their shoulder, so the devs can watch them play at any time. In case cheating. Why would you disagree unless you have something to hide?

I'm just throwing ideas around here. we don't need to implement every single one.

Je crois que l'idée de la caméra n'est pas complètement légale, est plutot très intrusive ^^
J'imagine que si tu vois quelqu'un jouer de facon TRES TRES suspicieuse, tu peux toujours tell un GM et en discuter avec lui.
Par contre, vu que ton message porte sur les joueurs n'utilisant pas d'alts et un bot, je ne crois pas que ce soit le bon topic, puisque le changement de CoC ne changera rien du tout pour eux :)

#144 Added by Arxxan 5 years ago [en]

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@soleya guess this was ironic to show how ridiculous the whole discussions about proof is.

#145 Added by Haruto 5 years ago [en]

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Jorgensen

I definately think we should force every suspicious player (you know the type) to install a small, unobtrusive camera in their gaming room, over their shoulder, so the devs can watch them play at any time. In case cheating. Why would you disagree unless you have something to hide?

Do you mean I would need to get DRESSED to play? That's a big NO. /s

#146 Added by Azazor 5 years ago [fr]

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Je pense que les dév devraient proposer un sondage avec ces 3 choix:
- interdiction d'avoir plus de 2 comptes connectés en même temps(proposition initiale des dév)
- interdiction d'avoir plus de 2 comptes connectés en même temps sauf si possibilité de prouver qu'on utilise pas de logiciel tiers (compromis de kyriann)
- autorisation d'utiliser plus de 2 comptes mais interdiction d'utiliser un logiciel tiers (comme avant en fait)

Bien sûr, il y aurait trois conditions à respecter:
- évidemment, on ne fait pas voter ses alt. C'est un vote par joueur. Bon, ça suppose la confiance après...
- Ce sondage ne serait que purement informatif, pour que l'équipe puisse ensuite faire son choix en toute connaissance de cause. Ryzom n'est pas une démocratie.
- Peu importe le résultat, pas de menace de quitter le jeu avant la prise de décision (même si ça n'empêche pas ensuite chaque joueur de partir si le jeu ne lui plait plus, mais ne pas le dire avant, car ce serait une forme de chantage).

Last edited by Fyrenor (5 years ago)

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#147 Added by Bastien 5 years ago [fr]

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Pour moi, je ne connais pas de mmo, autre que Ryzom qui permet de jouer avec plusieurs comptes.
Donc ça ne me pose pas de problème. Je ne pratique que le forage avec un reroll soigneur.

Si j'ai bien compris, jouer avec x comptes poserait un problème avec certains contenus futurs, qui serait optimisé pour 4 joueurs, d'où ma question :
Ne pourrais ton pas bloquer le multiboxing uniquement lors de ses nouveaux défis ? Si c'est possible techniquement.

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#148 Added by Zarden 5 years ago Multilingual

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As Jorgensen pointed out in an ironic way, proving that you have the skill to multibox without cheating is pretty difficult.

I think these 3rd and 4th alt could be forbidden on certain activities :
- OP War
- Future new features from the story line that Ulukyn mentioned
- Killing bosses if there's only one real player in team (otherwise it doesn't really matter)

If those rules were not respected, it would be pretty easy to prove what happened with a few screenshots and a ticket. Multiboxers may be forced to give the name of their toons to GMs when they start playing with them to make things easier.

The idea is basically to keep them out of the most competitive content so no one feel like they are and advantage over them.

I think using alts on Magic spots is not a big advantage; it's very easy to take them down with a small team in "mobile" PvP as once one or few of them is down all macros don't work anymore and players with 3 alts don't have the mobility of "Normal" players. But this could be forbiden as well.

#149 Added by Kigan 5 years ago [fr]

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Que les inquiets se rassurent, je me réabonne pour endiguer le flot de départ ! Blague à part, jolie performance de Beeficus.

A mon époque, le multiboxing existait, mais n'était pas non plus monnaie courante. C'était plutôt la "signature" de certains joueurs, et ça faisait plus sourire qu'autre chose. Je repense notamment à Xylog et Canonia.

Ne jouant plus, je suis incapable de visualiser l'importance que cela a pris ces dernières années. En tout cas, ça soulève les foules. Il a bien longtemps que le forum n'avait pas été aussi animé ! Peut-être est-il venu le moment de relancer les vrais débats intéressants, comme celui d’un Ryzom full-PvP ?

Retourne troller seul dans sa caverne

Last edited by Kigan (5 years ago)

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#150 Added by Ulukyn 5 years ago Multilingual

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I was the first one to swear 3000% that beeficus was cheating (so in reality... I'll be dead...). After seeing his stream I realized how wrong I was.
I then tried to understand my mistake

And I understood that it was a server optimization that doesn't send the information in real time, but rather aggregates it to send it all at once. (I still wonder how I could not have thought of that? :( )

Therefore, although it may seem obvious to the eye in the game, this is not really the case.

I wanted to make my mea culpa and say that one of the reasons why I, from my point of view as a dev, made this change was totally unfounded.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by ERR: Author Not Set (5 years ago)

#151 Added by Jenn 5 years ago [fr]

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Zarden

Je pense que ces 3ème et 4ème alts pourraien être interdits sur certaines activités :
- Guerres d'avant poste
- Nouvelles features de la story line que Ulukyn a mentionné
- Chasse aux rois, s'il y a un seul "vrai" joueur dans la team (autrement les alts ne changent pas grand chose à l'affaire)

Bonne idée - mais est-ce possible ?
Je veux dire, comment, en pratique développer de telles sfonctionnalités ?

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