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1&3 - If my rate was only 3% then fine, whatever. That's Ryzom. But my experience so far is closer to 13%. My luck has been bad enough that your argument is not really any different from arguing that seat belts are useless because you personally have never been in a car accident. The distribution has been such that I cannot attribute it to luck though, unless you are willing to concede that your own personal experience is in no way, shape, or form any more indicative of reality than mine.

5 - Part of the beef I have is simply that I've seen enough folks who are all, "Travel is it's own reward!", that hearing that the best thing about DMs is visiting more parts of Atys evokes a visceral reaction. If my boss paid me in navel lint instead of dollars, I'd have a similar reaction. Don't tell me something is an upside unless it's something I actually care about. Add in that I've had more bum missions than you by large margin (and for a STUPID reason), and you wind up with an even larger sense of "Why bother?" simply because of broken things.
My opinion will change once Loria missions are fixed to be as doable as the other region's missions are now, but until then, don't bother trying to tell me broken stuff is good even if I like what they are trying to do.

7 - That was in response to your split feelings on crystals.

8 - I got here just after Merge. I didn't know about NH until I was pretty high in all fames and good enough at dig/craft to earn more dappers more easily from overseers. Different experiences, so different opinion.

9 - If I read right, you do an hour a night per occupation. That means that on your four-occupation nights, you're already on for at least twice as long as I often get these days. Run that chart on 90 minutes 4 days a week and see if you'd be as ambitious. Also, since you mentioned "vagaries of chance", re-read the first paragraph of this post. Again, different experiences, so different opinion.

It is not false equivalency to just not be in the same part of the distribution curve as you are. Increased sample size is likely to tend towards the median, but it doesn't always move towards the median without fail. As unlikely as it is, it is possible to flip 100 fair coins and have all 100 land Heads. I see your refusal to avoid admitting that it's possible that you and I have had different experiences as basically refuting that (1/(2^100)) is still greater than zero. I didn't think I was asking for a huge concession there. Also, surveys and probabilities are different enough that I question the relevance of that link since it pretty much refutes/dismisses the existence of data too far from the mean; data like much of my entire life, ingame and offline. I hope that you aren't saying that I don't matter because I'm too far outside the norm to fit the narrative!

We agree that big positives and small negatives equals "overall a good thing", but you're overlooking that it's not all about the crystals for me. More crystals is a positive, yes, but the frustration and annoyance of broken missions is a negative, no matter how much you downplay it. A rather large one for me, actually. Sure, it's a lot more crystals, but that should tell you how big a negative I consider running into broken things at a rate that you seem to consider impossible really is to me. I simply don't see a positive that is outweighed by a huge negative as a good thing. Again, my opinion would be different if my luck put me as close to the center of the bell curve as you seem to be, but I've gotten so used to being a statistical anomaly that I consider hoping for a normal life (like the one you tried to tell me I have with your lesson on statistics, evidence to the contrary be damned) to be a variant of the Monte Carlo fallacy.

Speaking of false equivalencies, since when does knowledge correlate with love of travel? Is it not possible to do things and learn from them without liking the enough to consider them something you'd seek out? I'm glad you like to travel for the sake of travel, but I do not share your passion, and would appreciate it if you weren't condescending about that. Now, if you argued that there was a correlation with how much you traveled then I might be inclined to agree, but that's not what happened.

There is no need for a direct quote due to your constantly going on and on about the benefits of missions while downplaying the negatives, and also admitting a few things are broken. You obviously think DMs are good despite being broken. If you want to dissuade me of that notion, then do something about the factors that led me to that conclusion. And while you're at it, don't tell me I'm not negatively affected by something that negatively affects me. If I want gaslighting, I'll argue politics on Facebook!

Whether something is technically possible at all and whether it's possible do on a given night are two separate things. If I'm given a mission that I cannot do for reasons beyond my control like season, then it's effectively broken regardless of whether it's possible at some other time of the Atysian year. To me, giving missions that require disproportionate T&E or are simply not able to be done is unbalanced and in need of fixing. Some missions are locked off during certain seasons, so part of it is obviously fixable with relative ease. And it does strike me that Loria NPC hunting is problematic since similar missions in the other three regions are done in a reasonable amount of time without issues.

We do agree that DMs are more balanced than NH, and I really would like to see DMs work out. But as it stands, they have far enough to go that I feel NH needs to stick around while the bugs get worked out. It's not a matter of liking NH so much as considering reliable things better than broken things in the absence of any factors that tip the scales in favor of one or the other. You put different weights on different factors, so of course you have a different opinion.

If I did not know you, I would have a very bad opinion of you based on this entire exchange. As it stands, I feel that this discussion is utterly pointless, and that I've had enough of being dismissed, disrespected, and outright gaslit that I'm just going to walk away from your uncharacteristic megalomania. Hopefully when next we meet, you will be the more reasonable Freddy that I've liked and respected for years rather than whoever wrote the last few posts that have your name attached to them.

I will say that I've found a way to make DMs marginally tolerable, but that does nothing to sway my opinion about being drafted into the beta-testing, and (especially) not my feelings about being blown off and talked down to for simply not having a mainstream experience.

I would take the opportunity to address a longer pet peeve of mine, using this example.

First, some prerequisites. What is the beginner and average player knowledge level? How aware are they of the bugs-dressed-as-features of Ryzom? How inclined are they to have patience to figure out the details? Mostly rhetorical questions.

Oh, and second set of pre-requisites: what is the purpose of a daily mission in other games?

Now, onto the quote:

a) Non-existing mob is in the category "beyond broken". Especially grating since killing "goo mobs" has been an item in regular mission lists for years. Seeing the same flavor of problem again is ... I have no words.

b) Un-soloable mob is in the category "grating but acceptable". In any other game, I would say that the level designer who told me to kill a mob that's way too difficult is a dingus. In Ryzom, this is typical, you're expected to ask for a party. Fine, let's allow it.

c) Mob/npc that is incredibly difficult to find - No, sorry, I hated this in the past, and I'm certainly not the only one. But at least with regular missions, it was my choice to pick up the task - presumably I had the time/inclination to go around looking for things. But in a daily? No, this doesn't mesh well with my definition for a daily - too time-consuming and frustrating. It's not fit to be a daily mission if it takes 3 quarters of an hour and several stacks of death penalty.

Being able to look items up on BMSite just marginally improves things. Many people, myself included, dislike having to resort to out-game resources. It takes you out of the game, and it spoils the fun somewhat.

d) Needing to kill a spawn in order to get a different mob - this is completely anti-intuitive. Over the years, hundreds of newbies have asked for help with "that kipee mission in Fairhaven"; many others may have simply given up on the game thanks to such idiosyncrasies.

This is a clear case of a bug dressed as a feature, and therefore such an experience has NO place in daily missions. Consider that higher level players sometimes fail to remember this particular aspect of the game, suffering needlessly before someone puts them out of their misery.

e) Daily mission, but you are season restricted? As in, needing to wait 2-6 real life days, just for one mission? This is anything but a daily.

f) Bonus: the ordeal of occupations in dailies. Figuring out occupations when you're a beginner is difficult to begin with. Trying to balance dropping and retaking several occupations is simply too much mental overload for most players that I know.

In short -- I like the idea of dailies, it is a clear step in the right direction, but so far the entire system is plagued by the issues carried from existing mechanics and designs in the game.

I am sure things will improve with time, but only if we drop this attitude of "I've played for years and I'm a geek, therefore everyone would get the same kind of enjoyment as I do". The player base is far more diverse than that.

Well put!

It stands to reason that someone who has played more than most people have worked in an eight-year stretch would have a different idea of what is fun and what is acceptable than those who treat Ryzom as a game instead of a job. But yes, the player base is far more diverse than that.

Some of us play less than 20 hours a week. A lot of folks started less than five years ago. There are quite a few that don't even have any masters, let alone 20+. Ryzom isn't just for grognards!

As a new player (Dec 28th I posted so Djinn probably a few days old at that time), when I moved to FH, after scouting around visiting all the NPC's and working out how to use the Missions sorting by double clicking on Mission tab title, generaly getting to grip with everything that was new after Silan, I went about checking the DM's.

Out of season harvested items has been a bit of a pain considering they are daily's,(will take time to see and learn the seasonal cycle that pop's them, but mainly been an issue with my "Kishookapala" in Zora) but most frustrating is that on Djinn's tab now are mostly Matis quests, maybe a Fyros and a Zorai. For a new player with no access untill Trekked, it's quite frustrating.

Most people wont have time to plan and engage in a Trek that can take several hours, so including some planning could take days for some, so not realy daily friendly.

I have quite a bit of time so have been exploring the surrounding outer regions of AA, so having fun and DM's are not so mush a priority for me due to above, I am finding other things to occupy me, but my guess is that many new players on f2p (I am subbed and am taking my sweet time, so those frustrations for me are quite small but mentionable)may well get through Silan, and think, nah! not for me, and consequently be put off from subbing at all, or just pack up and leave anyhow.

(the attrition rate is probably high anyhow for people trying it on steam and maybe not used to anything like Ryzom, but these things can only make that worse imo).

I would prefer if there was also a seperate tick box for regional Daylies. I have tried filtering differently, but to no avail yet, will try more when the DM page resets.

But thought I would post my humble observation.

PS. Kishoo has marked all seasonal harvestables he has found so far and will be visiting them each season and taking notes, so no great chore, as I enjoy such activity, but as mentioned above, some may not be inclined to do such and end up abandoning quite a few gathering DM's as a result and get frustrated in what is left to do that does not involve days of faffing about to do what is supposed to be a Daily!


Regards Djinn

Djinn, i find your comments here of immense helpfulness, i applaud your making them. ty ... they are proving to be also for me very helpful and informative 8)

I'm not addressing you,  your experience, your personality or your ego.  Such thinks have no place in intellectually honet debate.  Neither mine nor yours is relevant in any way.  This isn't personal.  It's math.  If you want to provide counterpoint,  skip the derogatory personal characterization distraction and show the math.  


"The law of large numbers is closely related to what is commonly called the law of averages. In coin tossing, the law of large numbers stipulates that the fraction of heads will eventually be close to 1/2. Hence, if the first 10 tosses produce only 3 heads, it seems that some mystical force must somehow increase the probability of a head, producing a return of the fraction of heads to its ultimate limit of 1/2. Yet the law of large numbers requires no such mystical force"

Outside of Ryzom, I don't recognize mystical forces.  Every industry uses the same procedure... Hard Drive MBTF, Tire Mileage Warranty, Life insurance, car insurance, investment.

Yes it's always possible that a set of 10 data points will produce just as accurate a data set of 100 or a set of 1000 ... on occasion.  It's just not as liklely.   The **Law** of Large Numbers favor the larger data set.  It's called a "law" because it has been proven mathenmetically to be unassailable.  That doesn't make the data from the 100 unit sampling worthless ... the 100 and 1000 combined now makes a new data set of 1100.  I hope we can agree that ith just two possible outcomes the chances of black / red at the roulette table are 50 - 50.

Now in 4 spins ... the odds are 50-50, same as a coin toss ... but just one toss astray and the result is 75-25.   If you are going to claim that it is just as likely that 100 tosses will produce 750 - 250, I can only answer "show me the math".  Probability and possibility are two different things, if we can't agree on that basic principle, and the math involved, then we agree, there is no basis for a reasonable discussion.

I'm not going to say you don't have valid points.   They are certainly valid from amy player's PoV and I have made the same arguments myself.... what I do want to say is after looking at missions from different sides over the last 3 or so years while doing them extensively, my position has mellowed. 

Three years ago when I 1st began chasing Tribe fame, I was singing many of the same tunes you are now.   All I can say is, like everything else in Ryzom, every day you learn more.  Were you successful the 1st day your rode  a bike ?  No but you preservered and it got easier.  You been here a while, things have gotten easy and routine ... we have a new thing ... give it some time, it gets easier.  Like a jig saw puzzle, the more pieces ya get in, the easier it is to put in the rest

In an ideal world, nothing would be broken.  But we have to live in the real world ... there are potholes, it rains, kids forget to pick up their socks.  What level of perfection can we expect to be entitled to for ouru $10 a month living in fantasy land.  I saw a coffee cup in GoT ...  I found 3 typos in the last book I read.  My 100 pack of TicTacs only had 99 in it.

Not to make light of your concerns but I went to see the Doc recently because when I move my arm in a very specific way, I get should pain.  So I said "Doc, it hurts when i do this ...He said "Don't do that".  Now of course no patient likes that answerr cause "they wanan do that" ... but the area was irritated and a combination of  a little pain relief and trying as much as possible not to "do that" solved the problem.... the recovery was hastened by looking at the problem from multiple perspectives.  He was joking... but he ws right too.

Let's try that here:

1)  On this Goo Mob thing ... I travel to a tribe camp, I see 5 NPCs that will give me missions. Plus there are several traveling dudes / dudettes.  All told there's some 70 missions I can take from this tribe.  DMs aside for a second, Kill Missions are the least rewarding.  If I want Fame, I'll do delivery / explore.  If I want cash, I'll do craft ... if I want both, I'll do prospecting.

When I'm checking for what i want to fit in my 15 mission limit, kill is always the last choice and this is where most of the broken missions are.  When I see a goo mission,  extremely rare, I skip that mission.   What do I lose by skipping it ?   I just pick one of the other 69 missions available, only 15 of which I can have at any given time.

Getting back on DMs.  Getting a bum mission is disappointing.  So is getting killed by a mob and getting DP, but it happens.  What is the impact ?  You coud simply do another mission ... easy to pick one with more fame, easy to pick one with more dappers.  So realistically, what are you out ? 1) the DM dapper reward is a pittance 2) the token reward is no big thing and thats a risk anyway and 3) the elyps.   No argument there, you prolly want them for something.

But is that any different than the grinch stealing my reward ?   Would you not play the game if one out of every 8 missions was actually designed to fail ?  Disappointing certainly but if its happening less than once in 20 times, is it really a big deal ?   With DMs at center stage now, priorities will shift and the pace of the fixes will increase.

2)  Let's remember that MMOs are designed to be an evolving thing.  Game design involves separate teams and, as targets are revised, one team isn't always in sync with the other.  Given our event history, the goo is also an evolving thing.  I expect that it was envisioned that there would be repeated Goo invasions and as such there would be goo creatures.  The missions were written, and at some point, possibly financial or other considerations pushed the implementation back to a later phase and maybe that phase never happens. 

Now if the devs could wave a magic wand and all missions would be fixed, it would be done ... but, we have to recognize that this takes manhours.   Nobody's living large off the game.   There are 11,000 missions in the game ... when the volunteers sit down to work, do they spend time getting the server back up, killing bugs, developing new content, creating new events  or fixing missions that until now were ignored by most of the population after they hit their desired fame ?  Outside of a few high dapper reward missions, that were repeated by many as often as the cooldown time expired, this substantive part of the game content was ignored.   DMs are changing that focus and as such, it deserves ... and is getting a higher level of priority.

I have been concentrating for the last year or so to max out Tribe Fame; I started chasing the "Spirit of Sally Field" title (where no tribes would KoS me) about 3 years ago... so been at this for quite a while.  Only had the company of 2-3 others over that time to share strategies, NPC and mat locations, etc.   DMs are simply a selection of Tribe + Faction + Nation missions w/ extra rewards; been here just a month.  I do know that each broken mission report is examined; I do know that each mission report gets a reponse and verification. I do know that each verified problem mission is put into a "things to do" database.

DMs are new ... there's a large backlog of fixes to be accomplished and this must be done by a small group of volunteers while at the same time keeping the game up and running.  These people "have day jobs".  We have to ask ourselves, how many hours a week do we put in as volunteers ?  So yes, some things are broken ... With 3 years where missions were a large % of what I do IG every day,  I can say the % of broken missions is not large.  If the  approach was every time a misison is reported as broken, delete it ... does that make the game better ?

I'd urge those who have now taken up missions, to take the time to report them.  Be specific.  Include Mission Giver / Allegiance (i.e. Tribe) / Location / Mission and what makes it broken...include a screenie.

Almost nothing in this game is unsolable.  Go on youtube and you will find examples of Dai Den and a host of other baddies.   And that's the answer I got.  But my position wasn't that it wasn't possible ... The more relevant question is "Is it worth my Time and Effort [T & E] ?.  I went back and explained to support that "if nobody is going to put in the T, E and R (Resources) why bother to have it in."  That's a philosophical question that really only can be decided by those responsible for deciding game balance.   I can see both sides here and Im not seing that one position is any more valid than the other.  Whatever decision s ultimately made, I can accept either outcome.

Do we want to have a game where nothing is a challenge, nothing requires an effort "above and beyond".   I'd like to be able to do everything solo given the state of the population but if everything was easy, would I still be interested in playing ?   What happens after we have everything we want ? ... what's to make us come back ?  Do we want to "finish" the game ?  Is it about the journey or the destination ?  What do we actually need more of such that it's critical that every effort delivers rewards ?  I've been doing DMs for a month and they way things are going, will have no need for Elyps by March.  So yes, while I do have the desire to get rewards for my efforts as often as possible... on the other hand, Im in no rush to finish the game.


Let me take the easy one 1st ... /appzone 855.  We have IG apps, no need to leave game.

https://i.imgur.com/tIsGtMB.jpg

As for the finding ...remember when you were working a mob and then XP stunk and you had to find the next level ...it was some work to find what was just right.  Same for those dig spots ... some were good, some got you dead. eventually like that Goldilocks babe, you found one that was just right.   And when ya were traveling, you tried various routes which got ya killed,,, and over time ya found ya way as you understood / remebered th safe paths.  remeber when you needed to be trekked ... the fact that you are trekking others is not only because you are higher level, you know the routes better.   This is no different.

Remeber when you found your dig spot for shu ?  Was it easy ?  Did you use BM ?   Then you flagged it and it was easy.  Same thing here.  You can find all the NPCs the same way.  Theres a list of all the NPCs here that you can print out.

Tribe Fame List

Most of the NPCs will be in or around the camp ... if you don't have their locations down from hiding in them or getting killed by them,  silenda / BM will allow you to flag them.  Do you use the boss macro ?  Using the same principle, create a macro for all tribe NPC or list the ones on your mission list for the day ... run around spamming the macro and looking for scroll icons on the compass set at 250m.   Or ask around.  I have had stretches of bad luck, over the past 3 years but reached out for help finding elusive NPcs ... asked in region ... anybody seen Jow Bloe today ?  Asked those who had completed maxing out that tribe.   Yes, frusutrating at first, but it gets better.

The best example I can give ya is Kitin Lair .. when I was level 3 or so I was terrible frustrated by continuously getting killed ... I got to the point where I would be happy to get 10X DP so i didn't have to worry about it.  But after a week or so i got good at it... I learned what triggered the attacks I learned how to watch for the kinch, I learned how to avoid the kizoar ... by the 3rd week, I was going down every day and no DP at all.   Then the egg room the pouka patrols made it interesting .. again, died a lot till I learned the patterns ... once the rules were understood, it was cake.

BB and EI I found terrible frustrating to travel in ... now, after spending time there, no worries.  In EI I learned to travel counterclockwise instead of clockwise and everything was simple.

Is it ? ... Cause it's imaginary ...t I have never actually encountered it.   It was a supposition on my part in that I imagine it could happen and suppossing that if it did, would that be "broken" ?    Again, I would find both answers acceptable if it actually occurs.   I have encountered "Kill (4) Yelks 189 or higher"... and then I find them and kill (3) ... but I have to kill (2) other yelks in the spawn to get an immediate repop w/o waiting.  Or I can just run a bit further a way and kill (2) out of the neighboring spawn.  It won't be long before cuttlers or whatever take out the remaining yelks, but I can not say for certain that it does not exist.   When I can't find something, I have to wonder "is this possible" ?  I have no way of knowing but I have yet to encounter it.

1st off, as with much of the complaints about DMs, I don't see the need to exaggerate as the season only last 4.5 days.  But again, this is an imaginary scenario.   I imagine it could happen ... but I have never encountered it with Mobs.  I certainly have encountered a mission mat being out of season in the region that the mission is in.  So  I  just dig it in a different region ... no harm no foul.  I probably dig 55% of mission mats regardess of region of origin in desert 40 % in Void.  Spend more time in those regions so like everything else associated with missions ... familiarity / experience increases efficiency.

Figuring out what to do when you are a beginner is difficult with everything.   Whats to balance ? ... line them up alphabetically... do three occs, after 2 days move to next 3, rinse and repeat.  Miss a day ... where's the crisis ?  I look at my inventory ... count my mats ... I have 72 of these, 72 of these....oh only 36 of them things, I will do that one tomorrow

So far ?  it's been a month and most folks have been doing it far less.   There's 11,000 missions ... that's a lot of content to familiarize ones self with.  If you stopped chasing fame when you hit 100 nation and faction, or 50-50-50-50 then yes, you are at a very significant disadavantage. I think it's fair to say that no one who has been working tribe fame to a significant extent is having difficulties.  They have already seen anf flagged a high % of the missions and already have all the NPcs flagged.

It's irrelevant how many years peeps have played the game.  But how many weeks, months or years one has been focusing on mission is.  Its unarguable that starting DMs with every NPC location flagged and every mission mat flagged is a huge advantage.  But once you have done that, you will be in the same position and it won't be "hard" anymore.

How many folks have you heard say they b hated digging  ... got up to 220 in magic and melee and then were saying "Oh now that I got past 60, it's  a whole different experience.   How good you are at something and how much one enjoys it depends on how much experience they have had and what knowledge and practice they had going in.  Who ever loved music lessons when they started ?

Like any new task, it requires experimentation, it requires thought, it requires developing strategies, it benefits from using available tools.  Its why most of us are here ... it's challenging.  You don't excel in Ryzom by having quick twitch muscles in your fingers, but you will benefit greatly by using the muscle between ya ears.   No need to be a genius, consider all options / actions before they are taken.  And when you learn something, if ya can't keep it in ya head, use a tool to remember it.  Take 15 tribe prospecting missions ? ... invest a few minutes writing down or typng in a  spreadsheet what mats, where you find them and organize your route ...  or you will be wasting tons of time runing back and forth all over the plant

I was terribly inefficient when I started doing Tribe Missions, I didn't know where the NPCs were, I didn't know the routes thru aggro areas in places I didn't frequent or where the mobs were.   I benefitted greatly from talking to players who "showed me the ropes".  I found 30 or 40 NPCs that weren't on any maps.   If ya like the tribe chart referenced above has had a few more added.

Yes the player base is diverse ...and that's one of the diffculties for the support team.   There's an overwhelming mindset whereby  each player wants time spent on what they want and resents spending time they have no interest in.  So if you don't want to do DMs don't do them... stay with NH till you are satisfied with the % of broken missions.

But I would encourage you to stick with it ....

a)  It gets vastly easier over time.  When i started, i was just as frustrated as you are.  Since DMs started, I have seen many of the same missions 3 or 4 times ... they were easy for me the 1st time because I had everything flagged already.  Once you're at it a few weeks, you will be sailing smoothly I usually finish all 7 in between 30 and 50 minutes.

b)  While its frustrating not to be able to complete everything 100%, in the grand scheme if things, it's really not all that of a big deal.  If you are doing this for the rewards as a neutral, you are matching NH with just 2 missions a day.  id have to go back and look at my old post but even with fame = 100, you'd only need to do 5 missions.  If you got the Goo mission or the Kidinak mission, you doidnt invest any time, if it was kill a super herbie, you didn't attempt that either.  So we're really not "out" anything when we get a broken mission other than "It cuda been more" feeling.

c)  Trust in the fact that over time, the missions will be tweaked  ... I have a reasonable expectation that truly broken ones will be fixed ... hard ones i don't feel strongly either way buti don't have any issue wiyth anyoine having a different poisition either way