Updates

@ Gidget

1. Yes, I have found many missions in Loria that don't work.

-Kill Goo Creatures
-Kill Kidniak
-Kill 230 Kiban
-Kill [Don't remember] Level Kizoar and Kiban ... this one I have been told exists ... but if it's a only one in a spawn and it's dead ... have to kill rest of spawn thing, never gonna find it.

And other missions that aren't practical ... for example killing 4 and 5 star super herbies. I killed a plod in Outlaw Canyon once ... took me 20 minutes. Tried Loria... when I sat down to regen, it had 100% HP by time I stood up. And when running around carting multiple tools, focus and HP mage gear ... I don't have room for 2h weaps, HA, eggs and stuff.

2. I do 2-3 occupations at a time. Takes me about an hour for each ... (except Butcher) to collect 6 days worth of practices. With NH, I would go to bench and practice grades 1 thru 6 in one sitting ... after improving them, I'd walk away with 24 x 6 mats (144) as you can practice each level occ once per day. That's 4 days of NH hand-ins for a bit over an hour's work the 1st day and 2 minutes on the following 3 days.

DM's make it harder. DMs require 10 Q70s / 20 Q60s ... 40 Q20s. No Q10s at this point but that's supposed to be fixed. I hope they also fix the numbers, and get rid of the oddball numbers an make them match. If ya gonna get 18 for 100%, then make the hand ins 9, 18, 27, 36, 45, 54. Or give out 20 for 100% and make the hand ins 10, 20, 30 ....For improved, we'd get + 33% ... Again, no odd numbers ... 33% would give us 6.67 each time... or 20 after 3 tries ... so out of every 3 tries gives us a 1/3 chance of getting a +10 and a 2/3 chance of getting a +5 for same % bonus.

EDIT:  I git the numbers wrong from memory ... actual numbers for hand ins are listed here but same thinking applies.

https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/25037/4 5#45

3. I been doing since Day 1 ... did just green ones for 2 days and then no restriction. I have had 1 what I call "Impossible Missions Force" (maybe possible but not worth the T, E & R) happen on about 3 days and 2 of them twice

4. It's not about dapper back in the day versus now. It's not about liking missions ... what I like is variety so things don't get boring. What I like is a thought process for making a decision as opposed to only one option making sense. What I like is balance so everyone is not doing the same danged thing all the time. Ryzom doesn't reward the player with quick twitch finger muscles, it works hard to work best for those who use the muscle between the ears.

5. It appears that I must have not explained my point clearly. It's all about balance... it's all about making an intelligent choice. It's all about making the same rewards accessible to the entire player base, and not favoring particular play styles or mindsets.

In focus beta we spent weeks assigned to various tasks killing things with magic versus melee... the point being ... if one or the other dominated, everyone would focus on the one thing. Everyone would be using a 2H axe ... everyone would be using the same spell.

After release...every weapon did the same thing ... all that changed was looks. Then, a patch gave weapons various different characteristics. An axe did more damage but would have less speed. That now meant no best weapon, but each could be best in individual circumstances. Sometimes, pike form example, the advantages / disadvantages were not immediately apparent. But with the greater reach, you took less damage and you could hold more mobs.

What we had with NH was:

a) Way to get the most fame for your time investment = NH by a huge margin.
b) Way to get the most dapper for your time investment = NH by a huge margin.
c) Way to get the most points / rewards for your time investment = NH by a huge margin.
d) Factioned players saw up to 4 times the rewards as other groups creating an elite class.

So, no ... not about how much you get now versus then ... it's about various path to the goal could be taken then with reasonably equivalent rewards.  NH chamged that; NH left us with only a single logical pathway.  No other pathway could provide equivalent rewards for the same T & E.  You don't lik that factioned players get 4 times the rewards .... but here's where we disagree ... you are OK with NH, even for the neutrals like us, giving ius 4 to 5 times the rewards of any other pathway.

With everyone complaining about "no content", after NH, there was over 11,000 pieces of content that no one was participating in. After a mission oriented Silan ... once NH arrived, those new folks you spoke of were guided by their 'elders' ... "no don't do that do this, never advance your occupations cause you get the same rewards much easier this way".

Now we are rewarded in different ways ...

a) Need fame ... focus on the "Green Missions" (explore / deliver) ... much fame, little dappers.
b) Need dappers, focus on the blue (craft) missions.
c) Need mix of both, do the Purple (Prospsct).
d) The Red (kill) missions are similar to purple but not as much dapper.

But the best thing about the missions, (and I got this doing tribe missions before DMs came along) is I am visiting more areas of Atys ... back in the day, like up until 6 months ago... I avoided BB and EI , HOP, UB ... because they were "problematic" to get around. We all stayed with what we knew cause if you were level 40 in dig, you were told to go to Dyron ... and, back in the day, screwing it up for the higher level players who might get 30-45 minutes a day before KT made digging impossible.  Meanwhile all the lower areas the higher level players got no benefit from diggin in were 100% KT.

Now it's as if I was given an expansion pack.  I did the grind for lakes dig in EI from 100 - 200 near kami TP and by the time i finished, I was so bored with EI , I never went back except to do NPC bosses. Western EI was a nigtmare so i stayed in my little corner w/ no aggro in 1000 meters. Now I am comfly in all areas of EI only cause completing tribe missions made "pushed me" to go there.

6.  But the most important thing about DMs over NH is it treats all player groups equally. No more 4 x the rewards for one group over another. Of course, those who enjoyed the preferential treatament will be disappointed, but as long as we all pay the same subscription and all have to put in equal time and effort, this is fairer.

7.  In addition, you are not pidgeon holed into doing things you don't want to do ... don't like harvest missions, exclude them.

a) You can get to 50 fame in about 3 days with NH ... 12 days and you 50-50-50-50. As Joe Pesci said in "My cousin Vinny" ... "I got no more use for this guy"

b) Just leveling my skills, you can make 10 million a month ... after paying for the NPC plans reassembly, again "I have no use for this guy".

c) As for crystals ... I am split on my feelings. yes, it gives you something to do when you have no one to team with ... OTOH, one reason you have no one to team with is cause many folks are off leveling with their alts and crystals.  Might was well go play Witcher or Metro if I am going to play alone.

8. Economy ?  There is no economy, never was.   The only thing I felt had any real damaging effect over all the "corrections" was when the cost and value of everything was reduced post merge ... to no great efefct ... exept the cost of NPC plan restoration remained at 90 million instea dof being reduced propertionately.

It's barter economy and NH didn't change that one bit to my view. What NH did was pigeon hole the entire population into do one thing day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. It's about resources .... dapper so you can pay expenses, nation points so you can buy consumables. And NH was the single most priftable thing you could to ... nothning else gave you an option that was even 25% as productive on a time and effort investment basis.   So everyone did level 1 maybe 2 in two occs and dead ended there.

9. Now instead of 2 occs, plyers realize significant advantage in having 8 ...You will still get about the same amount of crystals with NH as you do with 2occs now. But if you have 8 occs, you get a 20% bonus. If you get to Grade 6, you get more rewards for your time investment than with lower grades ... If you improve the mats, you get even more rewards.  Essentially, the more areas of the game you explore, the more rewards you get. Not like NH where there's no incentive to pass Grade 1. NH was the equoivalent of the no show job you got cause because your uncle is a union boss or a politcal appointee :).

In summary ...

DMs = more variety
DMs = eliminate your cult favoritism issues
DMs = greater rewards for greater efforts and accomplishments
DMs = greater exposure to infrequently visited areas

Try...

The base level for the rewards are, as far as I can tell choosing only 200 - 250 level options so far:

15 Elyps
15 Choce Tokens
20k Dappers

With the 20% Bonus:

18 Elyps
18 Choce Tokens
20k Dappers

With the 20% Malus:

12 Elyps
2 Choce Tokens
16k Dappers

Here's the Bonus / Malus Distribution

Occupation Bonuses:

8 occupations = 4 x 5% = +20%
7 occupations = 3 x 5% = +15%
6 occupations = 2 x 5% = +10%
5 occupations = 1 x 5% = +05%
 
4 occupations = 0 x 5% = +00%
3 occupations = 0 x 5% = +00%
2 occupations = 0 x 5% = +00%
1 occupations = 0 x 5% = +00%

Classic Bonuses:

4 Mission Types @ 200-250 = +10% + 10%
4 Mission Types @ 150-199 = +10% + 00%
4 Mission Types @ 100-149 = +10% + 00%
4 Mission Types @ 050-099 = +10% + 00%

3 Mission Types @ 200-250 = +10% + 00%
3 Mission Types @ 150-199 = No Indication
3 Mission Types @ 100-159 = No Indication
3 Mission Types @ 050-099 = No Indication

2 Mission Types @ 200-250 = +10% + 00%
2 Mission Types @ 150-199 = No Indication
2 Mission Types @ 100-159 = No Indication
2 Mission Types @ 050-099 = No Indication

1 Mission Types @ 200-250 = -20% + 00%
1 Mission Types @ 150-199 = -20% + 00%
1 Mission Types @ 100-159 = -20% + 00%
1 Mission Types @ 050-099 = -20% + 00%

The DM, seems to me, were prepared to encourage exploring all the content.   We've seen the folks who master 1 or 2 skills in 6 weeks ... and they're done ... they've reached end game.

And yes... for new players, I think they **should** be creating a balanced character ... and when they get skills to level 40 or so , they should be able to handle all but the craft missions ... ideally they can do 2 or 3 ... but not at all.  But one thing I do remeber from doing the rites was "you didn't have to do the crafts ... just someone in team".   So this is a way for guilds and players to meet, group and split up the craft load for mutual game.  Of course I have not confirmed this yeat ... but it's "on the list"

1.   Since the start, I'd say I have found 6 or 7 in Loria that I couldn't to.  I got a response to my ticket saying "they are there" ... look harder :).

-Are they there seasonally ?
-Are they there only when moss and it's part of the minions ?
-Are they there as part of a spawn, so that you wom't see it unlees rest of spawn is kiled and spawn reporps

But today I had:

- Kill a  Voracious Arma
- Kill a  Voracious Wombai

I couldn't find either of them after a pair of N=>S / S=>N traverses.  Now I have seen the Wombai ... I believe however that it only appears when the Boss pops at south end.... or parhaps seasonally

So call it 8 ... and over that time I have done @ 248 missions  At a 3% broken rate, I can deal w/ that.  Hopefully over time, these will get fixed.

2.  it's more sweeming than running for WC .... for MC I use my mount.

3.  I can deal w/ 3% ...  These are obviously new:

https://i.imgur.com/LMdctTH.jpg

... but as long as the dev team makes progress over time, I won't be disappointed.


4.  As above.

5.  It was my biggest peeve ... and DMs erases it.  As this is the case, I don't understand "Where's the beef" as the saying goes.

6.  It would seem we are in violent agreement on this one.

7.  I'm not seeing the connection between population and freedom of choice.  I don't see anyone leaving over having more choices ... I don't see it necessarily bringing anyone back either ... but I am enjoying no longer being second class citizen.

8.  Who needs dappers or fame really is not in any way relevant to the point I was making.    What I am trying to make clear is... for example immediately post merge:

a)  We all needed fame
b)  We all needed dappers
c)  We all needed rewards

To get all of those, we did what we did pre-merge.  Post NH however, the path for new players using NH was easier by orders of magnitude.   And, again, it's not the difficulty or effort that was the issue ... it's that it is out of balance.  You didn't like that rewards were 4 times as great for one play style as oppossed to another.  That is the beef here also, one method of getting to hwere touy wanted to go was 4 times easier than all the others.

If an Atys Citizen has to put in 4 times the T & E to get the same reward as a Nation Citizen id bad, then why is it not bad that one who takes an alternative path to fame / dapper  / points has to put in 4 times the T & E ?


Now once we obtained our fame, didn't need to pursue it any more ... once we bought our packers, apartmenmts, GHs and NPC plan restorations, we didnt need dapper anymore.  At that point, most mainly just did it for the crystals  ... and to  a lessr extent ... wundahmat, picks etc.  So it's not a matter of who needs what and when ... it's  a matter that when there is a need, you could spend 3 days getiing it thru NH or spend 12 days hours getting it by alternative options.  It efefctively renders all that "other content" extraneous.  HWat is more "interesting" ?

a)  Do the same 2 Occs in 2 regions and repeat the same actions without advancing just doing the basic level repeatedly over and over again
b)  Stand in front of an NPC and "travel" to where you are standing 4-5 times.

or

a)   Be exposed to ~ 40 regions, 50+ tribes, see different vistas, learn new travel routes,
b)  Get rewarded for advancing to 6th level and 8 occupations
c)  Enjoy the variety of 11,000 missions ... yes many are similr but has every haburger you have eaten tasted the same ?


9. The game doesn't require that you do them so why "shove them" and deny anyone else the opportunity to choose this option.   With a little bit of forthought, I fail to see an issue with the 3 limit thing.  id like it better oif the result was 20 mats instead of 18.

Over 2 days, I can earn 144 occ produce w/  imptovedf mats  ... Over 2 days, I can turn in only 80 matsI turned in ... Net gain +64 mats.

Ok so lets say you don't improve the mats.   It' just a matter of setting up a "system".  Now with the vagaries of chance you want to have a reserve in case you get the same occ cupla days in a row.  Let's say 500+ mats. 

Starting on the 10th day, once I have the reserve of 540 mats, over the next 8 days will collect 432 mats (3 Occs x 8 days x 18 mats) ... and spend 400 over 5 of those days (4 Occs x 20 mats x 5 days).    Over an 8 day period

3 Days:   0 Occs + 7 Missions
5 Days:  4 0ccs + 3 Missions



Now that's if you wanted to do so as to concentrate and maximize results.   I think Im more inclined to alternate days:

Odd Numbered Days:   0 Occs + 7 Missions
Even Numbered Days:  4 0ccs + 3 Missions

10.  I would like to see one change.  Allow up to 3 occupations until you have mastered 3 occupations ... After that, any occupation you "master' stays on the board.

Im have not been and have no intention of trying to argue that you are wrong here ... Your points are valid based upon the assumptions you've made.  But I think you will find that those assumptions do not serve well.

1&3.  The seat belt example is a false equivalancy.  We are both doing DMs and both have had failures.   This is simple math / science and mathematics ... just like work :) .  The accuracy of any predicted outcome is based upon sample size ... like polls... a sample size of 1000, will produce greater accuracy then a sample, size of 100.  A sample size across all relevant demographics will be more accurate than one that isn't.  We can't give an accurate estimation of drowning deaths by sampling the population of Prudoe Bay Alaska and a sampling of 10,000 people will be more accurate than 100.    Statistics is a science, that science has it's rules and that science produces consistent and reliable results.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/

I have done DMs every day since day 1 and due to the less than 24 hour cooldown I prolly picked up an extra 1 or 2.  You said you do 4 days a week and lets assume you also started day 1.  So if I have done 280 missions, you have done 160.  Using the referenced standard statistival error calculator, and  a year's worth of daily missions (2,550) as our yearly mission count, my margin of error with my sampling size is 6%.  Your margin of error with your smaller sampling size is 8%.... Not huge, but not equal either ... 33% more  

But more importantly , "where's the beef".   If we both did NH, we'd wind up with about 163 crystals.   If we did DMs, we'd have 1050 crystals with 7 successful missions.   Your 13% is a bit less than 1 a day so lets call it consertaively and give ya the edge of 1 failure a day (14.2%) ... so with 1 failure per day,  your getting a bit more than 900 crystals per day on average.

In short, there's absolutely nothing to concede here... the reality actually is that a) larger sampling size = more accuracy and b) being "goal oriented" you are far exceeding you previous goal as DMs, even with the failures factored in, are giving you more crystals per day.

5.   This analogy is another false equivalency.

Option 1 - You belong to a dinner theater club and every 2nd Thursday of every month they go to the same theater, see the same show and have the same meal.  Same story, same actors, nothing varies.

Option 2 - You belong to a dinner theater club and every 2nd Thursday of every month they go to the a different theater, see a different show and enjoy a different cuisine.

Which group is more knowledgeable ? ... who will be more knowledgeable about the various talents of the actors, writers, directors when evaluating whether to see a new show coming to town ?  The knowledge I have gained in the geography, aggro locations, pathways, etc. from doing tribe missions has made me far more capable in traversing the planet safely simply because of the exposure to what I learned.

I learned that traversing EI clockwise is hard ... counterclockwise is easy.  Collecting puzzle pieces was a piece of cake as I could navigate many areas far easier than I could before, gaining that knowledge when chasing tribe fame before DMs came about.  My survivability rate has improved as a result of doing Tribe Fame.  Everything i do in game has benefitted because I have additional knowledge that I didn't have before.

If this doesn't mean beans to you, it is still irrelevant.  I think we can agree that a good thing is when the pluses's exceed the minus's.  So if it's your position that none of this benefits you in any way, shape or form, then any negative impact that you can present makes your case.  Let's look and see if that is actually possible.

As I understand it, your position is that they can shove DMs because NH is better since you can't fail and the DMs fail 13% of the time.  That's not been my NH experience.  Doing 3 occs and 6 practices per occ in each "sitting" ... I often screw a couple up.  So there are failures, my fault but still failures.
You don't need dappers, and you don't need fame so it's clear that you are doing NH for crystals.  At 50 fame, you earn 50 nation points per product or 1800 NPs max per day.  At 11 points and 11 dappers per QL500 crystal, you can buy (163) Q500 crystals.

Now with the alternate DMs, you earn 18 Elyps for one mission.  With your 13% failure rate, you are completing just over an average of 6 mission per day, earning you 108 Elyps.  Each stack of 100 QL crystals costs you 12 Elyps, allowing you to buy 900 crystals.

So where's the minus ?   With 1 failure per day, how is your goal oriented approach in any way being negatively impacted in any way.  When your reward with 1 failure / day, you are exeeding your established goal by a factor of 5.5

Even if you went full on faction / nation with 100 fame, you'd get 655 crystals w/ NH ... so where's the beef when, by doing daily missions w/ one failure per day you are now getting 1.4 times more rewards those 100 fame factioned doods get w/ NH ?  Not only are you no longer a 2nd class citizen, you are getting more than them.  As it stands now, you need only complete 2 missions per day .. 5 missions could be broken and you'd still be ahead of where you were before.

I'll need you to provide a quote to address the claim that I said "broken is good".  No such suggestion has been made.  Your taking issue with a "downside" that, as has been demonstrated above, does not exist.   It's unfortunate that a small % of missions are broken .

In no way does that say "broken is good", its says "yes some missions are broken, but you are in no way being negatively impacted so there's nuthin to complain about.  Do just 2 missions a day and you're ahead of the game ... then go do NH and double up.

So now, what can we do about it ?  How can we make it better ?

I have reported each mission that I have been unable to complete.  IIRC, 4 have been acknowledged as not possible, for other 3 the response was, "I found them, they can be completed".  So maybe my "broken" is really half what I think it is.

One, not in the 7 was completed after another player told me where to look.  One I had yesterday, I was unable to complete.  The Voracious Wombai I found at ponds by Kami TP there in summer was not in Autumn....  but I had completed it previously.  So if I did it in summer and couldn't do it in autumn, is that broken or is that Life in Atys ?

The remaining topics have kinda been rendered moot by the preceding but for clarity

8.  I don't see the reasoning.  Either something is unbalanced or it isn't.  If it's unbalanced in 2004 and still exists in 2009, 2014 or 2019. it's still inbalanced.  DMs are not giving you anything less than NH, it's giving you more... much more.   More importantly, it's giving everyone the same opportunity.  No more imbalance.  I expect the rewards will be tweaked as tme goes by ... and the purchase costs are relatively outta whack.  Crystals are cheap, Wundahmat ridiculously expensive ...


9.  I guess it's because of our different approaches to game that I was unable to adequately convey the perspective in first series of posts.   To my eyes, how much you get is not so much te point ... inbalance is a horrible thing.

How would you describe ....

-Having one race that is significantly more powerful than all others
-Having one weapon that is significantly more effective than the others
-Having one class that gets significantly more rewards than the other

My answer to all is  "poor game design".  A chnage was made... it presented an imbalance, attemps are underway to correct it.

9.  Not quite ... It typically takes me an hour or so to collect certs for the most common occupations (Water / Mag Cart).   Hard to tell as always interupted by craft requests, out of game obligations ... I timed mag cart once and it was 64 minutes to collect a week's worth of certs.  Butcher takes me a good part of a day. Medic and Scrollmake go fast.  Toolmaker and Florst take more than they should beause i don't like doing what averyoine else dos and repeatedly abandonong missions i don't like.  But then Im done for the week.   When doing NH, I'd do 6 practices at one sitting and then do the NH hand ins daily spending 2 minutes aday.

But I havent done NH in about 3 years .... no need for any of the rewards.   When Skiy was restoring her NPC Armor Plans,  I sold Q70 scrolls for 9999% markup.   Best income I have come across so far.  Grinding craft left me dumping 10 mill a month in GH.  After completing crafts, moved onto tribe fame and that was surprsingly and unexpectedly well compensated.  I took 15 propecting missions today for tribe fame and made about 3 - 4 million with 2-3 deliveries thrown in.  I been 50-50-50-50 fame since a month after merge.

But the concept of obtaining fame, rewards or dappers ... when needed.... should be proportional to the effort involved.  And if one path is alarmingly more poductive than others, then the others for the most part become irrelevant.  It's my position that the goal of game design is to provide balance... NH destroyed that, it was recognized and efforts are being made to correct it.

And that is THE reason why after being removed, NH is now back and, I presume, why it exists side by side, wuth DMs.  You can do DMs or if you don't like them stick with NH.  If you prefer not doing DMs because you run into a broken mission, no one is stopping your from continuing to do NH.  This is a test / tweaking period, missions will be fixed, rewards will be tweaked.  keep doing NH until the broken mission count is more to your liking.  Or keep the staus quo and only attempt 2 missions  a day.