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Is that a good idea? / Ist das eine gute Idee? / C'est une bonne idée ?
Yes (Write what could develop positively) / Ja (Schreib, was sich positiv entwickeln könnte) / Oui (Écrivez ce qui pourrait évoluer positivement)
Atys: Gidget, Jahuu, Kaetemi, Luminatrix, Yper		 5
20.8%
No (write what would be wrong with it) / Nein (Schreib, was falsch daran wäre) / Non (écrivez ce qui ne va pas avec)
Atys: Aleeskandaro, Fyrenor, Bradbreddan, Dukenono, Hayt, Lacuna, Mermaidia, Naveruss, Revvy, Sinvaders, Sowen, Syron, Timna, Vauban		 14 (4)
58.3%
Other thoughts (write it down) / Andere Gedanken (Schreib es auf) / Autres pensées (écrivez-les)
Atys: Agy, Balkhog, Heernis, Placio		 4
16.7%
Other
Atys: Dorothee		 1
4.2%
Abstain 8
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#91 Added by Gidget 6 years ago [en] 

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Revvy
You should read the Bible then, if you already did read the Lore and you end up with this sort of idea.
I have, and that is a large part of why I feel the way I feel about Atysian religion.
Revvy
Imagination is good :)
But when it is written black on white by the author(s) you cannot deny it forever
I've read too many things from authors that held back major plot twists and seen too many retcons to not be skeptical. Now, I might feel different if the lore team came out and said Atys was a totally and utterly stagnant world that never evolved and never would, but unless/until that happens, I'm going to take them at their (current) word that player actions have an effect on which direction the lore goes.
Revvy
Overall reading the rest, i really think you guys are mixing (voluntary?), the actual design of the game (gameplay for convenience to have fun) with the gameplay supported by the lore and the roleplay injected in game by players.
It doesn't feel voluntary. If it did then there would be far less friction in the community, and you wouldn't have people feeling they are being told, "You're Ryzomming wrong!".
Revvy
Not to mention all these massive in real life comparison about everything related to this game, Ryzom..
It is not only you Gidget, even if i use your post to talk about it.
Homins are controlled by humans. No matter how much you try to deny it, that means there is a strong link between Atys and RL. And it has to be that way in order for any sense of immersion to be possible. Not everyone can step far enough outside themselves to totally ignore their humanity while logged in. For many, parallels to RL are the best (possibly only) way for Atys to have enough sense of familiarity to even make sense as a cohesive world. If you can step further outside yourself than most folks, then good for you, but don't forget that that makes you part of a small minority.
Revvy
To be back on the (closed) topics.

You want it or not, Kami and Karavan power's are not friends, and so the Homins following them.
Same goes for the resurrection gameplay mechanics which is Lore supported/driven (you can't play Nung, its a myth a legend)
Christianity and Islam are not exactly friends, though hostilities between them are not quite what they were during The Crusades. In fact, there have been many instances of them sharing common goals. For instance, any time a Christian does an act of charity, they are acting in accordance with one of the five pillars of Islam. To claim that Kami and Karavan can never follow that same path is, at best, immersion-breaking. And as for Nung being a myth and legend, the same could be said of many other prominent religious figures.
Revvy
The restriction for guild is purely gameplay based, it is to guide players into different paths (the nationalist, the religious.. etc), it is an engine to the game mechanics where you can choose a side white or black or blue, and play against each others to have fun OOC and to drive the story a step further IC.

In case you do not want to be part of any conflict, you may want to stay neutral in game, but you will have limitation with players that did the choice to take part in a conflict (aka been kami, kara, mara, whatevera).

Now the problem nowadays is, you are entering a faction for the teleportation system it do provide.
You don't take part in the conflict, nor wish to do so.
Show me the Neutral 250/PR TPs then. Being forced to choose a side because one is penalized for not doing so utterly ignores the definition of Neutral that many English-speakers know that it actually feels offensive. Likewise being barred from playing with those who chose a different different transit system to avoid the "Neutrality penalty" seems capriciously arbitrary.

Overall, the lack of neutral 250/PR TPs is the root cause of a lot of the problems here. There may be those who say that Neutrals deserve no 250/PR TPs because they were/are not in the conflict, but they'd be giving a large part of the Ryzom community a big middle finger for not sharing their view that factions are THE most important thing ever in the history of everything. That would in turn lead to... well, the sort of conflicts you and I have so often.
Revvy
So you are surprised and don't understand why you cannot play with your best friend forever from Karavan when you are in a Kami guild.
And then naturally cry about freedom and liberty to do whatever you feel like because you pay the game like everyone.
Factions exist since the creation of the game, and the game is based on it.

You choose this game knowing what it is from start, that is also why this post is closed and refused.
I am surprised that an international game seems to have so little respect for the cultural difference for those outside the borders of the country the game was developed in. Or maybe it's just the community that is that way. Well, what's left of it; I know many folks who no longer come to these forums and/or have turned off Uni because disengaging from the community was the only way for Ryzom to remain playable. But keep on insulting the core personal beliefs of part of the player base. That will get folks to see things your way!

Last edited by Gidget (6 years ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#92 Added by Moniq 6 years ago [en] 

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Gidget
Show me the Neutral 250/PR TPs then.

Why? Your disadvatage is no direct access to high level zones. Your advantage is your neutrality.

This looks like you want same advantages as factions have but you won't take their limitations...

#93 Added by Revvy 6 years ago [en] 

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Gidget
Revvy
To be back on the (closed) topics.

You want it or not, Kami and Karavan power's are not friends, and so the Homins following them.
Same goes for the resurrection gameplay mechanics which is Lore supported/driven (you can't play Nung, its a myth a legend)
Christianity and Islam are not exactly friends, though hostilities between them are not quite what they were during The Crusades. In fact, there have been many instances of them sharing common goals. For instance, any time a Christian does an act of charity, they are acting in accordance with one of the five pillars of Islam. To claim that Kami and Karavan can never follow that same path is, at best, immersion-breaking. And as for Nung being a myth and legend, the same could be said of many other prominent religious figures.
Im not sure if you are Rping or if you talk from a client pov here..
If you really did read the Lore then, you know the Kami and Karavan did not get created to serve a peaceful purpose all together.
It do not serve any goal to make them work together without any animosity gameplay wise.

Please keep your IRL religious example for you it really has nothing to do here. Thank :)

Gidget
Revvy
The restriction for guild is purely gameplay based, it is to guide players into different paths (the nationalist, the religious.. etc), it is an engine to the game mechanics where you can choose a side white or black or blue, and play against each others to have fun OOC and to drive the story a step further IC.

In case you do not want to be part of any conflict, you may want to stay neutral in game, but you will have limitation with players that did the choice to take part in a conflict (aka been kami, kara, mara, whatevera).

Now the problem nowadays is, you are entering a faction for the teleportation system it do provide.
You don't take part in the conflict, nor wish to do so.
Show me the Neutral 250/PR TPs then. Being forced to choose a side because one is penalized for not doing so utterly ignores the definition of Neutral that many English-speakers know that it actually feels offensive. Likewise being barred from playing with those who chose a different different transit system to avoid the "Neutrality penalty" seems capriciously arbitrary.

Overall, the lack of neutral 250/PR TPs is the root cause of a lot of the problems here. There may be those who say that Neutrals deserve no 250/PR TPs because they were/are not in the conflict, but they'd be giving a large part of the Ryzom community a big middle finger for not sharing their view that factions are THE most important thing ever in the history of everything. That would in turn lead to... well, the sort of conflicts you and I have so often.
I was talking about players, been neutral implies some limitation with other non-neutral players (cf. guild invite)
And non-neutral players do have limitation with neutral players.
Nothing to do with a teleportation system..

Gidget
I know many folks who no longer come to these forums and/or have turned off Uni because disengaging from the community was the only way for Ryzom to remain playable. But keep on insulting the core personal beliefs of part of the player base. That will get folks to see things your way!
lol.. I don't understand why you do think it is "my way" ...

A game is created like it is right? stop changing rules as you want its called cheating :)
If i create something to be played with 2 cards, and you want to play it with 4 you are creating another game.

Its perfectly fine but its totally different :P

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Spoiler

#94 Added by Fyrosfreddy 6 years ago [fr] 

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The one and only **truth** is that the game mechanics are rezzing everyone. Anything else is an imagined belief in a story someone came up with either thru days of focused thought, deliberation with colleagues and playing devil's advocate or simply pulling it out of the part of their body that warms their chair. Where did the Night King get his ability to raise the dead .... from GRRMs imagination. The reason is whatever he says it is and that's all there is to it. If he says something different tomorrow, then that is what it is as of tomorrow..

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#95 Added by Gidget 6 years ago [en] 

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Moniq - How is Neutrality an advantage on Atys if it's not really neutrality? As it stands right now, Neutral has all of the disadvantages (and more) of alignment with nothing of note to really balance that. Are you simply understating the value of teleports so drastically that you're basically saying that thirty cents equals one Dollar/Euro? Seems to me (and MAAAAAAANY others) that being Neutral is an overall penalty.

*****

Revvy - First off, unless you are denying that the Kami and Karavan factions have even the slightest religious overtones, that RL religious example has a lot to do with things here. If you are willing to cease any and all support of using factions, especially those with all the trappings of a religion/philosophy, as a reason for conflict or segregation, then I'll stop. But so long as you make RL religion relevant by perpetually bringing up IG religion (including quasi-religions such as Ranger and Mara philosophies) as justification for bad behavior, I'll bring up the parallels and ask why you are so dead set against being more like RL (or Arispotle for that matter) by being a little more secular. Besides, I play Ryzom partly to get away from nationalism and religious intolerance but you keep dragging RL into the game, so consider it reciprocity.

Second, I never said anything about "without animosity". In fact, you must've missed the part where I mentioned that animosity remains. However, some folks can put their differences aside for a common goal while those looking for an excuse to fight cannot.

Third, if you feel that what I said there has nothing to do with the teleport system then let me try again. Simply put, if there were Neutral 250/PR TPs then a lot of folks would not be aligned anyways, so this whole mess would sort itself out as Neutral guilds pop up all over the place. Of course, you'd hate that because I know how much you love factions ;)

Fourth, it's not cheating to ask for a rules change. Those who seek to make PvP and one particular style of RP (to the exclusion of all others) mandatory do it all the time; are they also cheating? If not then you have a serious double standard going there, and if so then it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Lastly, you are right about me wanting a different game. I want a game where you don't get belittled for not having a strict fundamentalist interpretation of lore that does not allow Atys to ever really progress/evolve. Maybe something that is a bit more respectful of differences too. And I am far from alone there; I'm simply one of the few of that opinion that even comes to these forums any more and one of the even fewer who is willing to speak out. You really need to consider the possibility that maybe the old paradigms are no longer relevant and thus mechanics need alteration to accommodate the societal shift. If the old ways were the best ways then we'll have to demolish the Mara camp and their more-sensible-than-pacts TP system because those are modern developments. If not, then it's time to allow for the possibility that Atys has changed in other ways.

*****

Fyrosfreddy - I've seen enough fans try explaining a work of fiction to the authors that wrote it that I have doubts that anyone would agree with the "Because the author/dev said so" argument. In my experience, that argument only works when it's convenient. Of course, games are different in that they are more dynamic than novels or movies because the characters in a game are not all controlled by the author(s), so there is a higher likelihood of them saying something different tomorrow than there is for a book/show/movie. In fact, it's pretty much a requirement for games to take character actions and player feedback into account.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#96 Added by Moniq 6 years ago [en] 

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Gidget
Moniq - How is Neutrality an advantage on Atys if it's not really neutrality?

What you mean by "not really neutrality"?

Ok, if neutrals have so many disadvantages and factions have so many advantages (means mainly TP into high level zones obviously, thats like a magic mantra here), why didn't you join a shiny super overpowered faction?

#97 Added by Gidget 6 years ago [en] 

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Moniq
What you mean by "not really neutrality"?

Ok, if neutrals have so many disadvantages and factions have so many advantages (means mainly TP into high level zones obviously, thats like a magic mantra here), why didn't you join a shiny super overpowered faction?
You forgot who you're talking to, Moniq. Or have our previous arguments totally slipped your mind?

You know perfectly well that I'm in a faction; as badly as you may want them to, factions don't have a purity test that excludes those who don't fanatically worship one particular narrow interpretation of lore. And as much as you have historically denied whether I belong there because we interpret lore differently, it's one that actually matches my ideals.

That said, you've made it abundantly clear that you feel I don't belong in that faction, just as those like Revvy have made it known for over 6 years that those like me don't belong on Atys. So if you ever wonder why I hold some of the views I hold and speak out the way I do, reread the previous sentence and ask yourself how long you can be told you don't belong before it geta to you.

You still haven't told me any advantages of Neutrality though. The only one I can see is that fresh-from-Silan players can join a guild without grinding fame, and I don't consider that a big enough advantage to be balanced.

Last edited by Gidget (6 years ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#98 Added by Moniq 6 years ago [en] 

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Gidget
You know perfectly well that I'm in a faction;

No I don't, I only know your guild. And faction was never important to me. So, are you neutral or do you have any allegiance? If not, why don't you join any then?
Gidget
You still haven't told me any advantages of Neutrality though. The only one I can see is that fresh-from-Silan players can join a guild without grinding fame, and I don't consider that a big enough advantage to be balanced.

Ok, if you are unable to see any, I will tell you some:
- Neutrality itself is the main advantage, you can stay out of faction conflicts
- You also do not need to work on fame
- You can work on your fame and have it balanced
- You can become a friend with all factions and civilization
- You do not have to do any rite
- You can become a Ranger (with a rite) to have access to high level zones (which is obviously sort of magic mantra here...)

I am sorry, I can't help myself, but you look like someone who wants advantages of factions while you keep your neutral status with its advantages (thay you even do not realize).

Again, if to be neutral do not fits you, you can go for faction that does. What is the problem?

And my question remains: What you mean by "not really neutrality"?

Last edited by Moniq (6 years ago)

#99 Added by Placio 6 years ago [en] 

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Revvy
Luminatrix
Is there any proof of it being this way besides "it's true because I said it's true"? I've read most of the existing lore and I don't remember any.
Yes, the Lore slash/ Lore Team.


Since you are marauder i think, you may want to ask them who's resurrecting marauder, you may be surprised to keep fighting Kami for example :P

Obviously, Homins do not have access to this information.

About Horongi's (which is composed of Marung and Nung)

If you want more detail here:
Nung Horongi
Marung Horongi
Tribe of the Witherings and Goo
ROLEPLAY - Dossier: Marung Horongi
Amber Cube of Nung Horongi

I honestly don’t see anything in those links that proves higher powers invented resurrection... the claims that two marauders learn how to resurrect could easily be exaggeration and legend, and again doesn’t explain how/where it came from. The current explanation of the source of marauder tp/spawn is their work with karavan defectors on the remains of the rainbow bridges. So their system may actually be an tryton based teleportation, while Kara and kami could very well be killing your original body when you tp and redirecting your data through the roots of atys to a natural or artificial spawn site. Again that was my hypothesis based on the fact that everything on atys respawns.

#100 Added by Gidget 6 years ago [en] 

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Moniq - Have you forgotten our disagreements in the Ranger channel over defensive PvP versus utter pacifism, and how I argued that sometimes there is no choice but to take up arms? Or are you claiming that us Rangers are not actually a faction?On second thought, it may be best we don't consider Rangers a faction; if the hardcore folks want to change things to get Rangers out of their current guilds for factional purity then expect A LOT of backlash.

Also, you just admitted that you believe thirty cents equals a dollar by claiming that a bunch of tiny advantages balance a huge disadvantage. Three of the alleged advantages are ones that you and I enjoy despite not being Neutral while one of the remainders is that you can become someone who retains those advantages.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Gidget (6 years ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#101 Added by Revvy 6 years ago [en] 

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Placio
I honestly don’t see anything in those links that proves higher powers invented resurrection... the claims that two marauders learn how to resurrect could easily be exaggeration and legend, and again doesn’t explain how/where it came from. The current explanation of the source of marauder tp/spawn is their work with karavan defectors on the remains of the rainbow bridges. So their system may actually be an tryton based teleportation, while Kara and kami could very well be killing your original body when you tp and redirecting your data through the roots of atys to a natural or artificial spawn site. Again that was my hypothesis based on the fact that everything on atys respawns.

I didn't stated high powers invented (Jena, Maduk, <insert>) the resurrection.
It is most probably a technology from the earth itself (from Atys pre-terraformation era).
As for Marauder teleportation system, a dissident branch of the Karavan (Hominist side) provide it.

Placio
.. redirecting your data through the roots of atys to a natural or artificial spawn site.
I like this idea, it remind me of the greek myth Gaïa or the version commonly modernized in FFVII (and movies) :)

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Spoiler

#102 Added by Moniq 6 years ago [en] 

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Gidget
Moniq - Have you forgotten our disagreements in the Ranger channel over defensive PvP versus utter pacifism? Or are you claiming that us Rangers are not actually a faction?
No I simply do not remember the information, sorry. And I claim that Rangers is screwed faction, if you ask.

Gidget
Also, you just admitted that you believe thirty cents equals a dollar by claiming that a bunch of tiny advantages balance a huge disadvantage.

It was you who evaluated neutrals to be 30% of other factons. If you ask about Ranger faction, it is, by me, 130% compared to K/K. In your strange talk, 1 dollar 30 cents equal to 1 dollar.

If you are a Ranger, you already have access to high level zones and many other benefits, like bunch of respawn points more. Or almost free and safe traveling. Safe zone on each node. Not talking about "mysterous" movement of pathways closer to cities (paradox is that position in the Desert is, by me, even worse now). So yes, if I was Kami or Kara I would complain a lot how unbalanced it is.

What you mean by "not really neutrality"?
What "huge disadvantage" you talk about?

This is my last reply, because, you ignore what I was originally asking. You try to fight for your ideas but you are not giving me any solid arguments. Not talking about that matter of neutrality is disadvantage or just a little advantage for you. Well, in fact I think you are convinced about your truth and you tend to look for information that supports your view and bend or ignore any other logic that is in conflict with it. Sorry, but the way how you (not) present arguments is not working on me.

I say, if you are not happy with your allegiance, go and join other faction that fits you better.

btw: All Ryzom teams do recruit new members in case you really want to do something more than fill the forum.

#103 Added by Fyrosfreddy 6 years ago [en] 

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Gidget
I've seen enough fans try explaining a work of fiction to the authors that wrote it that I have doubts that anyone would agree with the "Because the author/dev said so" argument. In my experience, that argument only works when it's convenient. Of course, games are different in that they are more dynamic than novels or movies because the characters in a game are not all controlled by the author(s), so there is a higher likelihood of them saying something different tomorrow than there is for a book/show/movie. In fact, it's pretty much a requirement for games to take character actions and player feedback into account.

Your completely misinterpreting what I wrote and what I wrote supported your position. Arguing against it, weakens that position. .... Simply put, the Lore that exists is there because someone wrote it 15+ years ago. How the game is actually played differs widely from the original expectation. The argument that the 15 year old lore is carved in stone and can not be modified is a fundamentalist thought that rejects the history of human existence. The creators of Ryzom's "pre-history" are entirely empowered to rewrite that history.

To port over to real life ... the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe was universally accepted as "doctrine", religious or otherwise. Arguing with that was blasphemy. Then it wasn't, a round earth and a sun centric solar system became the "new truth" .... and now we have Flat Earth beliefs making a comeback, So no.... no truth is static, no lore is static. Even Game of Thrones has tossed "ancient lore" out the window over and over again.

So no... the truth is not static... IRL, accepted "truths" are debunked every day. The second largest religion in the US is "none" (Evangelical Protestant = 25.4% / Unaffiliated = 22.8% / Catholic = 20.8%). This is a substantial change. Was a time when women couldn't vote, certain people could not own property ... acceptable behavior between men and women has changed drastically.

So yes, the "truth " and "way it is" on Atys is constrained only by the folks who make the rules. Granted, it's always best that you follow a logical progression from one state to another ... but there's plenty of leeway there to go in any direction which inclusively works for the greatest number of people. If a % of the player base wants nothing to do with religions, and it's going to be forced on them because "the lore says so" ... simple fix the lore.

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#104 Added by Kaetemi 6 years ago [en] 

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Revvy
As for Marauder teleportation system, a dissident branch of the Karavan (Hominist side) provide it.
Source? For all we know, it could be Goo-infused Kami.

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Kaetemi

#105 Added by Gidget 6 years ago [en] 

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Moniq - You have never considered any argument against your fanatically restrictive interpretation of lore "solid" in the past anyways, so I am not surprised that you are unwilling to accept that those who are impartial do not discriminate in a partisan manner; that the unbiased have no biases. Keep on saying neutral is neither impartial nor unbiased no matter how many dictionaries define it as such. But that will not change the simple truth that when Neutral is not neutral, then neutrality is not really neutrality.

As for Rangers being 130% of K/K, you ignore that the advantage of being able to be in a guild that would likely have been Neutral or Ranger had that been a possibility years ago is not nearly as big an advantage of being able to get to a 250/PR zone without a detour and a run to a specific spot the way we have to now. I would normally allow for the possibility that you have far different priorities than I do, but unlike you, I do not consider forced segregation to be a good thing.

Lastly, if Ranger is a screwed faction and (what passes for) neutral is so awesome, then when are you turning in your map and trekking to all the 250/PR areas? Besides, you refute that the truth is our only faith by clinging to falsehoods, and your desire for segregation goes against "Synergy, sharing and solidarity are our social rules" and "Unity is our strength", so you're halfway out of Rangerhood already.

******

Fyrosfreddy - I did not mean to argue against what you said, merely express skepticism that your words would matter to those who refuse to change their thinking no matter how many facts or how much logic is used. To them, the Lore that was written 15 + years ago is inviolable and immutable, and nothing you or I say will change that... though it may get them to try burning us for heresy. And the fact that the game is actually played vastly differently from "the original expectation" seems to be a real issue for some folks.

When you say, "The argument that the 15 year old lore is carved in stone and can not be modified is a fundamentalist thought that rejects the history of human existence.", you are pretty much restating my position. That is what I've been trying to get across to those who refuse to allow Atys to progress/evolve.

As for your last line, that is why my sig block is what it is. When you say "a % of the player base", are you including all players or simply those who come to these forums? Because I know a lot of long-time players who wouldn't touch this place with a ten foot pole. I consider their opinions just as valid as those who do come here, but I doubt they are ever taken into consideration. Some say they are the majority, but if you have 10 folks vote one way, 7 vote the other, and 20 who don't even know the vote is taking place, are those 10 really the majority?

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

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