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#24 Added by Sinvaders 6 years ago [en] 

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@Victoriacamper There is no need to say more since your assumption is wrong. You do NOT get chain killed by being tag. And to answer to another assumption you do, yes i do have many ennemies who kill me when they see me or at least try (not recently tho, but it already happened tto them to drag me aggro in the face while I was digging, they were NOT tag and still looking to kill me with another way).
It also already happend that some homins where hunting me and playing seek & hide stuff (was really fun back then btw).

Oh and since 2008 (or something like that), I have my tag ON (except after they restored my toon and when i'm engaged in OP battle (because in that case I do not want to flag because I want to be able to TP to get back in the fight as soon as possible).
Will I remove my tag ? No.

I think we do not have the same definition of chain killed.

PS: The situation described by Mithian is happening more often that you might think. Will I remove my tag while doing a boss ? God now, I want a game where people can interact each others not just looking at them.

Last edited by Sinvaders (6 years ago)

#25 Added by Victoriacamper 6 years ago [en] 

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*Del* Useless comment

Last edited by Tykus (6 years ago)

#26 Added by Revvy 6 years ago [en] 

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*Del*
Im asking you something that you fail to answer it seem :P
So i will repeat for the last time, since it seem needed for you.

How would you prevent PvP tag abuse?

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Tykus (6 years ago)

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#27 Added by Victoriacamper 6 years ago [en] 

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Well, Mithian I'm sorry to break it up to you, but it is very clear this is a risk you accept when you tag, you also have the chance of deactivating your tag while you kill the boss.

Eventually, you got to take responsability for your gameplay actions, and not pretend to impose a measure on the rest of players because of something YOU chose.

#28 Added by Victoriacamper 6 years ago [en] 

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Sinvaders
I don't see any exploit by attacking people who are PvP flags. And if the guy is only focusing its alt

Revvy, being attacked while you're pvp tagged is not an abuse, its the game mechanics, so I'm sorry if i'm failing to address your question but its not an exploit, its a disregard of game mechanics on your part, like I just said to Mithian, don't want to be attacked: Don't tag, its simple and its how the pvp tag is designed.

@Mithian
Tamarea
a) Theft of Bosses or Named

A Boss or Named belongs to the first team that has locked it, as long as the lock is active. (See https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/27212 for more information.)
A second team may assume the Boss or Named only if it is not yet locked or it is unlocked. To do this, it can exclusively:
Fight the first team in PvP

Mithian
* grab a bucket and wait to collect tears *
You're kind of the one whos crying here, about being killed under tag haha this turned unexpectedly hilarious

Edited 4 times | Last edited by Victoriacamper (6 years ago)

#29 Added by Gidget 6 years ago [en] 

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*Del* this has nothing to do with the discussion

*Del* this has nothing to do with the discussion


@Mithian - You are still overlooking the fact that 30m is still a considerable portion of the available playtime for many folks. That forces many to choose between wasting up to half their game night cowering in safety or leaving themselves vulnerable to revenge. However, if you wished to extend it to a more reasonable amount of time then I could go along with that. My reasoning is that 24h pretty much ruins two nights of gaming, and will result in fewer people tagging... possibly even fewer people playing, period. To put it in perspective, two nights is all many folks have available available to play for the week, which makes it a more consequential decision for them than it may be for you. A 24h cooldown is pretty much saying that you don't want folks who are not willing to perma-tag to play, and I doubt that that is the message you want to send. Even a 12h cooldown that will be a problem for the rest of the night but go away by the next time you log in again would be far better. Still consequential, but not nearly as problematic as throwing your entire weekend away over one button-click.

As for the boss-stealing exploit, a more novel fix might be to have the boss call some of it's guards over if additional homins get into close proximity of the team that is already engaging it. Not too many, mind you, but enough to even the odds so that both teams have to divide their attention between PvP and PvE.

Last edited by Tykus (6 years ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#30 Added by Aleeskandaro 6 years ago [de] 

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Even though Lacu's intention seems very interesting and constructive, I disagree that elongating the cooldown timer of PvP flag results in a stronger bound between RP and PvP, in contrary, the proposed change could have a very negative impact for some/most of us.

PvP tag is per se a RP stance, as it shows the readyness/openness for battle of any given character at a given time. However as many things in life, such readiness for battle is not permanent, especially in a world where there are so many other things to do than fight, and which are much more feasible if no one can attack you while you're doing them e.g. digging, crafting, training a skill and and and.

Locking someone under the effect of PvP Tag not only would force them to receive any incoming attacks and implies then a disruption in any other activities a homin might want to take part in; it also doesn't add any depth to the roleplay of being "perma-tagged", which is already doable without any change. And also, it sets the ground for exploitation as some people have already mentioned on this thread.

I did a tiny experiment by tagging up while I was naked in a non-pvp zone, the result: i was killed every 6 minutes for half an hour, without any provocation or RP justification, so no, I don't want to stay tagged for 24h just so that this can go on longer and I can't do whatever thing I want to do and currently can.

As for the "exploit" some of you have mentioned here, while I don't involve in those practices, i find it completely normal that anyone can attack a tagged team in order to steal a boss, it's a valid game mechanism and explicitly allowed in our CoC. The fact that people do it though, contrary to the common courtesy rules, lies probably on the fact that PvP doesn't have much of an appeal these days, the biggest motivation for PvP is not letting your adversary get a boss or sup or whatever thing, of which everyone already has a bunch of. If there was a deeper story behind it, it might be more interesting, and people might find a motivation in order to stay tagged longer without it being imposed on them.

That being said, if 30m definitely isn't enough to get your revenge, maybe extend the timer to 40m or 1h. 24h seems excessive and would be discouraging for many.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Bisugott (6 years ago)

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Bisugott(Atys)


#31 Added by Naema 6 years ago [en] 

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hmmm not sure what this thread is about, I tried to understand it but could not. All I can say is:

I play as a Ranger, I have a more aggresive stance as a Ranger than other Rangers do. I beleive Rangers have a responsibility to protect homins even if it means in some cases to Pvp. I am not good at PvP since I never practiced it other than Op fights. So, I tried the other day and Tagged up along with some of Clan de la Seve Noire near FH. They did not kill me, in fact, some some of the other marauders helped me learn PvP. They did not get impatient with me either which I appreciate. *Del* this has nothing to do with the discussion



As far as making the tag longer, I do not think that helps. If you are going to do that, why not make it 48 hrs, or maybe a week? If that happened, then nobody would tag except perma-tags.
My tagging changed in appropriate time back to green. I liked the time as it is. That is my humble opinion. Thanks for hearing me out.

Last edited by Tykus (6 years ago)

#32 Added by Revvy 6 years ago [en] 

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*Del* this has nothing to do with the discussion


As said, why do you want to tag up if you are scared to be killed ?
In a roleplay driven Atys, you can't be attackable only when you are "ready" to fight.

@Gidget :
To try PvP without faction play and any roleplay meaning, you can practice in an arena like the Matis one, you won't gain points tho, but this could change with a new topic about it.
It can be very fun also to do, without any poisonous meaning or CoC abuse.

@Naema :
As for Naema, the atys world isn't that bad they think it is when you are tag, you are the living proof of it.
Seem you didn't get chain killed and some other myths.

Now the original problem was to limit a team of players that tag to steal a boss at 10% HP, and yes it is allowed in the CoC, but doesn't matter things change.

I would like to imagine a tag which has a meaning, like it used to be.
Not only to kill people on sight, and then untag because your irl personal driven duty is done (like we can see way too much).

For me, and it stay my opinion only, tag should be part of a whole, it should have a meaning for the toon and the player itself, as a roleplayer been vulnerable on Atys is allowed, yes even if i dig.
It also a way for my toon to live fully the stories of the game, what happen, assume my choice and my action, like the action and choice of other.

I profit this topic, to ask for the coming back of roleplay tags also...
Logo of faction close to your name was very fancy :)

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Tykus (6 years ago)

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#33 Added by Gidget 6 years ago [en] 

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Revvy
In a roleplay driven Atys,...
Just remember that not everyone on this server had the same balance between RP and G in their view of RPGs as you do. Is Atys truly RP-driven or is is a game where RP is an element? I think we need to start a thread on this, if for no reason other than to prove once and for all that not everyone here is of like mind on this issue.
Revvy
...you can't be attackable only when you are "ready" to fight.
Revvy
Not only to kill people on sight, and then untag because your irl personal driven duty is done (like we can see way too much).
I was always under the impression that the 30m timer was to prevent precisely that form of attack avoidance. Re-read what I addressed to Mithian in my previous comment and you'll see why I feel 30m is a reasonable compromise between "instant de-flagging" and "flagging is forever!". Maybe an hour, tops.
Revvy
To try PvP without faction play and any roleplay meaning, you can practice in an arena like the Matis one, you won't gain points tho, but this could change with a new topic about it.
It can be very fun also to do, without any poisonous meaning or CoC abuse.
You assume I don't already do that? Granted, I don't PvP as often as some since I find it less fun than I did many years ago. But there are still times when I like to pit my skills against other players. There is more to my time on Atys than digging, grinding, hunting, or socializing ;)
Revvy
As for Naema, the atys world isn't that bad they think it is when you are tag, you are the living proof of it.
Seem you didn't get chain killed and some other myths.
We don't all have the same experiences, which is a large part of why we don't always have the same opinions; experience shapes opinion.
Revvy
I would like to imagine a tag which has a meaning, like it used to be.
I haven't seen the tags change meaning since I've been here (2012), and I know that the three servers that predate the one we have now were not identical, so "used to be" is rather subjective. Maybe this could be a part of the "What does Ryzom mean to you?" thread I proposed at the top of this post....

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#34 Added by Aleeskandaro 6 years ago [de] 

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*Del* useless comment

Edited 4 times | Last edited by Tykus (6 years ago)

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Bisugott(Atys)


#35 Added by Sinvaders 6 years ago [en] 

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@Gidget You nailed it, Atys is not RP-Driven (even if they tried to sell the game this way) or not anymore maybe. To me PvP should support RP not be a kids type of playing :P I agreed that everyone is not sharing this view tho. I hope you will have a better experience next time you will put your tag on :)

#36 Added by Lacuna 6 years ago Multilingual 

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Quick clarification: no one is crying about losing a boss while tagged, but a situation that is not against the rules but the spirit of them. I believe that pvp should be rp driven.  Just an opinion.  However, if you are going to tag up and get red flagged there should be consequences for your toon.  I suggested 24 hours as a starting point for discussion.  Jahuu makes a great point, and I think Alees makes a valid point too, but I do think the tag should last FAR longer than it does just now if you are red tagged.  I think that there does exist a far more balance cooldown than exists at present.

Last edited by Lacuna (6 years ago)

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#37 Added by Placio 6 years ago [en] 

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... I've seen very little RP driven PvP; its mostly griefers, Player killers, and those grinding PvP points...

Anyways back to the topic, I originally though a small increase would be fine, but it really does't matter. if the timer were 12hr, the person could just logout and come back later, or sit at a TP afk... At the 12 or 24 hour level afks and logouts are going to happen anyway...

#38 Added by Aleeskandaro 6 years ago [en] 

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Mithian
I will do an example to try to show you what we are actually talking about...

Thanks for the clarification Lac, I was just adressing Mithian's example of what he/they were talking about, so forgive me if I misunderstood the purpose of your post.

Current problem as you pose it is: there is not enough time to revenge on someone who attacked you. The problem I see with your solution is it implies a further exploitation risk, forcing people to be attackable way beyond the episodic action of attacking, in a manner that can badly disrupt the other game activities in which anyone may want to participate, be it because they are then chain killable, or because they're forced to stay at their apartment or hidden in an uninteresting region or vortex while you can detag.

Because lets be honest, contrary to what some have said here:
Sinvaders
...being full-time PvP tag doesn't mean you are always fighting or whatever ... it's definitely a wrong idea that people have
Sinvaders
I think my character is buggy then, I'm always tag and I am never been chainkilled :/ Shall I open a support ticket ?
Sinvaders
You do NOT get chain killed by being tag.
(err you kind of do, see
Spoiler: Chain kill
)


Many do find in PvP and RP reasons to simply play as ah, often simply because its "allowed in the CoC" and in doing so remove any attractive to PvP as a RP choice. Perhaps the ground behind this notion of unrelatedness between PvP and RP lies in the fact that seldomly anyone goes further than a /die emote to provoque the other and motivate PvP?

I think the current system works, but were a change necessary, I propose a similar one to Jahuu's, yet not as drastic, and affecting exclusively those directly implicated.

How about extending the red tag timer while keeping the cooldown timer the same?

No change will have 100% effectiveness, since as Placio says, people can simply log, hide, stay at portal or whatever to avoid the fight, but prolongating the red timer would, in my opinion make people give some more consideration when it comes to attacking someone. Yes, you won't be able to use TPs, but then, you're asking that attacking someone have a more significant effect, are you not? And also, since yellow timer remains the same, overall detag time is longer.

In the current situation yellow tag is 30 mins after activation or attack, red timer is 10m. In my proposed change, red timer could be around 30 mins and then 30m extra in case you want to fully detag. In this scenario detag time remains the same for all of those who tagged yellow and didn't attack anyone, and punishes/gives effect to those who did.

Edited 6 times | Last edited by Aleeskandaro (6 years ago)

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Bisugott(Atys)


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