IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Dear all,

this a continuation of a series of posts on changing things we actually need to be addressed. (part 1 is here: https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/28812/1 )

As these topics are actually more directed towards multi-masters; I would like the conversation and PoVs expressed therein to stay to those; but hey; any feedback that's constructive and imaginative is welcome..

So; in a continuation of the idea exhibited in part 1: Give us something more so more invested players have an advantage over someone else who are just starting out.

This time I offer passive Focus boost. Yeap; give us more focus per area mastered. Or give us passive Greslin effect (which is additive to the actual Greslin effect) on the area that we dig.

The focus bonus once again I suggest to be in the margin of +50; and when it comes to the Greslin passive regional ability; I suggest it to be to the margin of the actual OP produce mat.

Which means either a total of 250 Focus Bonus (which let's face it is not game-breaking but it sure is something); or in each region the % chance of the Greslin effect. (This one is not cumulative; it applies by itself to the area mastered; but it is "stackable" with the Greslin pick).

As always; provide your criticisms; suggestions; ideas.

Let's just make something happen:)

Yours,

Star.

Getting focus advantage isn't game breaker at all, for sure and it seem to be easy to make. The greslin effect is also an option, but is it easy to make?

I have made similar proposals before, we've had some back and forth and I can support this ... on one condition.  That it's not "single segment oriented" modification for the benefit of oine player segment.  I imagone mage oriented folks have it on their minds too ?   I know it's on Crafters and  Diggers

1.  There should be equal incentive to master all trees ... but with 11 fighting skill trees, 15 if we count ranged, that's +500 to + 750 HP.  No bigga deal for PvE folks, won't change much there but it does give a HUGE advantage to veteran players in PvP which may discourage new players.   Yes, ya should get something for all ya T & E, but the cost of who we scare away has to also be considered.  2.  Same idea for parry.  What I could get behind is say +1 Parry for each 2H mastered and +1 Dodge for each 1H mastered.  Something else for CC and ranged.  As for the HP... maybe +50 for completing a tree..... 1H, 2H, ranged CC ... a decent but not overpowering + 200 HP.
4.  Foe the diggers, considering that a single swing of the pick costs you 270 ... + 50 focus on 5 lands isn't very exciting.... doesnt evcenb give you an extra swing.   You get absolutely squat out of digging after mastering and if ya got an extra +100 per region, big deal... 2 extra swings.  More importantly, get the Spirit title and ya get Knowledge 4 and +6 Focus credits (276 allows Gentle x 3)

3.  As for crafting ... master 6 HA skills or 6 Jool skills and hey... that deserves something.  Master a HA / Jool tree get +1  on success % for ONLY that skill.  That will take you to 91% ... Works for LA / MA too but when ya get the 5 branches done ya get a bonus +1 so has same +6 s HA and Jools.  Shields would have to be +3 for each since only 2 to get +6 ... 1H weaps works as there's 6 ... 2H Weaps would be 1.5% each, 2H ranged 2 each.  Pistol and amps are single... not sure about that one.  Alternately ... a durability bonus if you mastered a tree
4.  Magic is a tough one.... not thinking more power or more HP / Sap ... but perhaps a slight bump in resistance or failure chance.  have toi be careful here as PvP impacts could be significant

At FF; I made these suggestions with the underlying assumption that mastering all the skills, or the more you master, of a respective skill tree, will give some bonus; in that way there will be no exclusivity to Spirits of War, Spirits of the Arcane, Spirits of Creation or Spirits of the Bark. Everyone that focuses; or even has an all-around build, actually sees progress in her character.

Because atm I haven't worked out on something that will be symmetrical for Magic Skills and Crafting and it won't be OP, I haven't posted a suggestion.

To your point about discouraging newer players; I am sorry but the situation right now is discouraging Veteran players.

Concerning PvP: As it stands, knowledge of the game, even knowledge of the game code and game mechanics adds nothing, having mastered all combat skills, mastering afflies, plays very little role in 1v1 and even 2v2 scenarios. Two spirits of war can lose (with the same gear, skills, all factors being equal) to two players with just the fundamental skills to PvP (healing, spear, pike, 1h sword+dagger, maybe afflies but even that with the well-known q15 madness bug it doesnt even matter that much).

About PvE: In a player vs environment situation again the multi-master should have an advantage over the environment, in an exponential rate to someone who has spend less time.

In that sense it can even promote a weird classification, even interesting balances within team comps...Instead of having the vanilla: "hey I amana get my HA brb", with the proposed boost: there can be an actual reason to promote the spirit of war to actually get the HA (if she/he wishes ofc) because there is advantage to be gained.

I immediately can think of a response back: But hey some guilds don't have spirits of war, spirit of x or y. Well for those peoples what happens now will still happen then; so nothing really changes. And that's why I insisted on a cumulative bonus addition per skills mastered and not upon skill tree completion; so even all-around characters can benefit.

What changes is to give incentive to players to actually finish their skill trees by actually getting something other than a title. Something that will make them to use Rev's words; Uber or Something+ in comparison to someone else.Not to mention in this way you can highlight and even make a name for yourself; or render your services to the interested parties more valuable..


As the situation currently stands; I am asking; how does this encourages players (like I had this discussion the other day; I have 5 combat skills left to master, one dig, and some crafting, some others the same + or -) for us to master the rest; when we gain exactly 0 advantage?

The point of any game that has a PvP component is: The more you farm, the more you play, the better you are. This is a de-facto situation in any game. In Ryzom happens the opposite. We are afraid to discourage new players to such an extend that effectively we alienate the older players. (Is it worth it to get 10 new people if you lose 30 veterans? The numbers alone say no.)

Also how is it good for the health of the game when one of the longest standing guilds, and a huge participant in the Marauder Uprising that happened some time ago, have all virtual stopped playing?I am a kami, I don't mind; all the OP goods for myself..I have nothing to gain from trying to get them to come back; aside from one simple thing: Competition and Liveliness of the planet I love; Atys.

Ask those players: I know I have: Why did you stop?

Two answers:a) Lack of Content and b) There is no point in mastering something more because it does not matter.

About a) I cannot think or do much at the moment; and I think it requires tremendous amounts of resources. So Let's put a) at the back burner. (For Now)

But about b) It is my unshaken belief that if you give us incentive enough to finish what me and others have left, and by that I mean ofc we should have an advantage over anyone who has invested less time in something than us, then we can finish and feel rewarded for our efforts. It's the well known Hook and Bait strategy: the playerbase will always follow the "cheese" or anyhting that will make them stronger than someone else; it's how games are.

So yes; I want all skill trees to have accumulated benefits of sorts; I just focused on two because those are the ones I can concretely present something at this time.

All players who have invested time into crafting (master of 20 crafts say, should get something more than the one who has 3) same with digging, same with magic, same with fighting.

What I am suggesting is that it is done cumulatively (so +50 hp/+50 focus, etc) per skill mastered; so 1) It actually showcases the progress you are doing and you reap the rewards, and 2) so that even new comers that are willing to spend some time and effort cumulatively get an advantage over someone who has spend less time. (New comer of 3 months with 5 skills mastered say, will have +250 hp which is super and something to be proud of, than newcomer of 1month..And it does make sense that this should be the case).

Finally; this is not just about PvP, although that is a concern of mine when stating these things; it is about ALL the aspects of the game.

The person who has spent more time MUST be better off than a new-comer. This is a reality in every game that there is; it's the de facto situation. (MMORPG).

At the time of this writing this is not the case. What we get is frustration and the super sad question when playing a game:

"Why bother? It makes no difference!".

I would like to remind everyone that potentially getting 20 customers that might shop in your place for a month, and then leave, is nothing to brag about if you are gonna lose the "locals", the 30 you have that provide you with a steady influx.

The point is to keep the 30; satisfy the 30 first, and then fish around for more income.

We have tried; everyone to their limits; to keep and satisfy and engage new players...But after some point; it's due time we all look back and see what we get as well. What has "Star" gotten by helping for herself? A moral pat in the back; yay I helped? No thanks a lot; that don't cut it anymore. I want to feel appreciated in the sense of :I invested x time, I get y. You invest x' time, you get y'.

In addition: Promoting and boosting someone is all fine and well, but what about all the real case scenarios (can provide countless names) of a new player making it to a master or two, until the question comes and "now what?"
This is self-defeating; hitting your self over and over again.

Some members of this community just cannot comprehend the simple fact; which exists in life; that for a game to be interesting you need to be rewarded accordingly. If that creates "Power Creep" or "Gosu Players" then let it be. Following fundamental human psychology tells us that players want to feel superior if they invest time in something, than the rest who do not. And ofc that makes sense.

So; Please Dev team; I have supported many new players to the extend that I am willing to..Perhaps now it's time to focus however on those that are here. Long standing players necessarily need to feel that they are long standing; not by a title that's null and void; but by realizing their played time in game. Translating the time spent; the masters gained; into actuality.

Sounds to me, basically you are asking to remove the 250 skills cap.

I am not sure I agree that for one person who grinds up sword master to 250 and uses it constantly should lose to another one who has mastered all melee (Due to a 'bump' in HP).
You can only use one weapon at a time and other skills may become 'rusty' over time or neglect to keep ALL your skills up. It doesn't make sense really.

I understand the desire for a reward for your hard work, but just not this way.

the 'Madness skill?' Well perhaps a better resistance to it. (Haven't looked to see if there is a jewel recipe that works against it, so I am not commenting on that yet. Otherwise perhaps better jewels can be crafted)?

So getting back to getting rid of the 250 skill cap. I think it has to end somewhere, and I'm fine with 250. Otherwise, are you going to have homins who are 750 in skills zapping Kinkoo like he was an ant? No, I don't think so. I have entertained the Idea of rewarding Rangers with a PvE 'Buff' while maybe rewarding Marauders with a PvP 'Buff,' after certain requirements are met, but I am not so sure we want to go down that road.

I am in favor of adding content where we can, but we can't change this game into another game without massive rewritting of the code, in which case, we would have to remake the game. I would be all for that, it needs perhaps a little refresh. (Imagine it in 3D?) Like ...ah nevermind, I regress.

I admit, I didn't read every post on this thread, so my comments reflect either this one or posts on part one, but I really don't like the idea of rewarding someone just because they mastered ALL melee skills against someone who only has 1 master. That person who has 1 melee master uses it all the time and has also worked up to 250 just like the other person, so they should be just as good at using it, if not better.

So, I have to say: -1

P.S. Oh sorry, after going back you are talking about focus here, I guess my post here refers more to Part 1 about giving multi masters a 'Buff' over those with only 1 master in melee or whatever. Feel free to move this post to the other one whoever can do that. :)

Naema:) We are saying that it makes 0 sense for someone who is a spirit of war to lose to one weapon master. What we are talking about is to cumulatively reward every person who is on the process of mastering skills so that they get an advantage (which is what happens in all games) over someone who is just starting over.

Also I am sorry; but your "rustyness" example shows no merit; because this game is based on set-up when it comes to PvP mechanics. The mechanics are not allowed to function because of the madness bug and how the combat system is structured..Therefore it makes multi-masters effectively useless compared to someone who plays one month.

On the contrary what we propose makes much more sense than the current situation; since everyone who PvPs switches around 5-7 weapons each fight to match the oposition's set up. However and again; the diversity and plurality that could be presented in this game; is gone to hell, because again, someone who has mastered one weapon can kill you...So effectively you gain nothing in a Player vs Player environment by being the master of all combat skills.

Again, when it comes to foraging...No advantage. Etc. etc.

In every game the players who invest time are rewarded de facto. Whether we like it or not; that's how games are played. You invest x time; you get y reward. This gives you an advantage over players and environment. That's how you know you are good in the game, and differ from someone who just started now.

With the current situation that's not the case.


So the question is Why Bother finishing the skills?

About your madness question: The Skill is Bugged. This is a well known thing for years now. Even boosted PvP jewels dont work. The bug is that a q fifteen skill has one in four chance to pass to someone with boosted gear and being an affli master; and the user doing the affli doesnt have to be a master at all. (But that discussion has been exhausted; evidently no one cares; or those that do do not know how to fix it; but if my proposal passes I dont really mind).

We are not asking to remove the cap; we are asking to make those who invest time feel rewarded.

Also about the Kinkoo example: It can already be done with 3 people...

It's time to understand in this community that the players that "complain" or "want something more" is because they have exhausted what is present here now. You guys seem to treat Ryzom like Skyrim or something...I don't want to pay ten euros per month to play skyrim; I payed the one-time fee and I have it someplace...

This is an MMORPG, MMORPG inherently have the concept of uber players, power creeps etc, and for a reason..Do you know why? So that players that are at the verge of being bored with the game, stay, stay because of the special status they have, or because they can actually do something in the game that a one-month player cannot.

All successful MMORPGS allow for storylines to occur from their player-base because of something they do; in our case this is not the case; because of how unbalanced the system is; hard work is not rewarded in any case..In Ryzom you cannot have your Athenes, your Reckfuls, etc. That is a problem..So what incentive do you give to the hardcore player base to stay if they cannot become one?

The purposed changes have in mind the recognition IN GAME of the dedication and hard work of the players who have stayed in this game all this time and have devoted their time in mastering theirs skills. (Which is the aim of the game eitherway). Someone is a master of all skills..Hooray great...He still dies exactly the same way to a kirosta the 95% of the rest of us do. He still dies exactly the same to a player the 95% of the rest of us do.

The way the current system works; is that there is no point in mastering any skill after some point; because you gain exactly 0 advantage. MMORPGS never work like that.

When it comes to pvp: If you have mastered one handed axe you dont need to master one handed mace, if you have mastered 2 handed axe, you dont have to master 2 handed sword etc. Players dont seem to comprehend that the "advantages" each weapon supposedly has over another are imaginary (excluding spear/pike which have their merits only due to the ignore armor factor) because in actual PvP scenarios it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the set-up; counter-dodge/counter-parry etc...But even this is nullified by what has already been stated.

In PvE situations the same thing occurs; if you have mastered one of the weapons on the given skill tree that allows you to kill any boss without succumbing to its resistances; there is no necessitation, nor an advantage to be gained, by mastering others in the skill tree. This is inherently problematic: Essentially a homina with 3 melee mastered can be a tank of the same caliber with a homina of all melee mastered. (Assuming skill and gear are equal). With this being the case in point; why then someone should bother to finish the remaining skills? If it's one and the same?

(Countless examples of players leaving because of this reason...)

The grind just for the grind's sake doesn't work in games anymore. (take a look at what happens in a Ryzom's competitor atm and how they have dealt it).

Since you posted in the forage thread (and thank you for taking the time to do so): Again; countless friends have said: Okay I mastered a region and PR..Why bother master the rest; since a) I gain no advantage by actually digging in x or y area b) All the good mats are in PR eitherway?

So to counter-balance this; give incentive; translated into Game-Play for Players to actually want to master the rest of the skill tree. A measly +50 focus is nothing to look at (especially with the Nation Picks and Armillo boosts) but hey it does add something; and a player who wants to be the best the game can offer will do it..(+250 focus btw are exactly what; one digging action).

As it stands right now: There is no advantage game play wise to proceed with finishing the skill trees; you get your fundamentals; you are good to go. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. What I, and others, are saying is that after the 20,30,40,50 skill mastered, it makes no sense to master more skills because it doesn't translate into anyhting game-play wise. And that's a problem.

Fundamental rule of all MMORPGS and Life: Time invested/Profit gained. Atm (leaving aside the gear discussion which for those that post here is already solved long and gone) there is no Profit to be gained from the time invested. That's why we are at a dead-end.

I think you don't know what we are talking about with "this madness spell stuff". Basically, it's a bug that has been around for YEARS, everyone's knows it (even the member of Ryzom Team and developers for years TOO) and I don't see it being fix in the upcoming years neither.
Madness spell is often mentioned with this bug because it's the main use-case (why do you think that most of the people have an madness q25 enchanted in their weapons and not an q250 ??) but it will also work with others spells as well as fear etc. With a good timing you can have 100% success rate for the spell to be casted properly.

This bug is one of the things which makes the basic PvP (1vs1 or 2 or 3 let say) totally uninteresting in Ryzom.

in here: https://bitbucket.org/ryzom/ryzomcore/raw/13fdaf1d724f0a1ffee425d 8884cd9222636e479/code/ryzom/server/patchman_cfg/default/entities _game_service.cfg

-NoLinkTimeFear = 10;
-NoLinkTimeSleep = 30;
-NoLinkTimeStun = 15;
-NoLinkTimeRoot = 30;
-NoLinkTimeSnare = 30;
-NoLinkTimeSlow = 30;
-NoLinkTimeBlind = 20;
-NoLinkTimeMadness = 35;

+NoLinkTimeFear = 0;
+NoLinkTimeSleep = 0;
+NoLinkTimeStun = 0;
+NoLinkTimeRoot = 0;
+NoLinkTimeSnare = 0;
+NoLinkTimeSlow = 0;
+NoLinkTimeBlind = 0;
+NoLinkTimeMadness = 0;


No levels, cant hold link. No link, no effect, no?

On the topic +1!!!

Yes blue:D

The link can't be hold by a non-master as that of a master; but the q fifteen has one in four to pass to anyone by anyone..

And vs a Pike/Spear/any 2handed really the luck of the draw is enough; that why everyone is saying that one v one is luck dependent solely.

An extended research was conducted by Lopyrech; the first who identified the issue; many stuffs were stated; nothing was changed;p.

Discussion is here:https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/26 251/7#7

(you can use translate function to get the gist of it)

But after these changes it would have no effect since there is no effect without link. That is what bothers me the most in this bug, why is there an effect if there is no link?

Seems broken link?

Hopefully this is a better c/p than before;p (fail;p)

https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/26251

This bug hasn't been discovered by Lopy (but he was the only one who started investigation). I has been well know long time before (and used by players).

But what can makes you worried about is why (since it's a know thing): they prefer to revamp the wheel than working on core bugs ?

I completely dissagree. It makes total sense.Let me explain: In real life it would be like this, Homin 1 has only one master, 2h sword, Homin 2 has multi melee masters.Homin 1 uses his/her sword 7 days a week thus becomming very adept at using it and all the nuances involved, muscle training, the weight of it and how it glides through the air and basically very adept at using it. Homin two has many masters having spent a lot of time training all of them, is very proficient at them all and can choose which one to use based on the opponents weakness. (Which in his training, he should know which weapon to use to exploit that), and yes, I have experience this myself!So, on Monday, Homin 1 trains/uses 2h sword, Homin 2 trains/uses 2h sword. On Tuesday, Homin 1 trains/uses 2h sword, Homin 2 trains/uses 2h mace. On Wednesday, Homin 1 trains/uses 2h sword, Homin 2 trains/uses 2h axe. On Thursday, Homin 1 uses/trains 2h sword, Homin 2 trains/uses 2h spear. On Friday, Homin 1 uses/trains 2h sword, Homin 2 trains/ uses Daggers. Do you see where I am going?Homin 1 trains his 2h sword 7 days a week, where Homin 2 'Gets Rusty,' even if a tiny bit since Homin 2 is only training/using that weapon 1 day a week while Homin 1 uses that one weapon 7 days a week! Yes, the game mechanics limit reality on this, but this is how it would be in Real life, so to make it real, I still disagree that you say a multi master should always win.Then why does everyone switch around weapons to match the opositions setup if you gain nothing? This paragraph contradicts itself.My comments on Kinkoo reflects what a person who is a master can do if he goes back to Silan and solo's the big Kirosta. If we give buffs to multi masters, to me that is like letting one Homin surpass another, (although that person is a master in a certain skill too), which would be like having your skill cap increased from 250 to say maybe 260 or 270 or higher than the other "Master." So I asked: Where does it end, at 750? At that level you could solo Kinkoo easily just like the big Kiro in Silan.I have entertained these ideas too Northstar. I really thought it would be a great Idea to let Rangers be better PvE fighters than the normal Homin, but after much thought decided against it. Maybe, just maybe, letting, or allowing them to equip armor  or maybe a weapon that is specifically designed for their faction for that that gives them a boost? I don't know the answer. But...! I will not support it until we have the answer, and an answer that everyone likes.p.s. Also, I am not arguing your thoughts on why people have left the game, but in my personal experience, I have found countless people leave the game, not because of lack of PvP content but because they try another game and get hooked on that for a while. Not that that game is better, but it just has to be different. Then it takes more and more time so you don't see them around. Eventually, they revisit Ryzom and realize it has so much complexity about it, they have to reinvest TIME into it which they are not prepared for. That is my opinion, I have seen and experienced it many times over. The other reason is Real Life has had them occupied.Each weapon has advantages! One is Slash, one is blunt, one is peirce. How a Homin is equipped has all the answers as to which you use! It pays to train up at least one of each type. Same story with Mobs. they all have different resistances. Choose the right weapon.

I would love to reply; really.

But I cannot fathom to explain fundamentals; I gave it a shot. Clearly; we cannot communicate because unfortunately the game is seperated into two parts which give fundamentally contradicting ideas on how the game is.

I am just going to mention that out of the thirteen + something pages here, most people who want something to change are because they are familiar with the combat system of ryzom and how it is unbalanced. Evidently the discussions get side-tracked all the time, like this one, or we are asked to re-invent the wheel to prove our points.


My fault:)

I give up:)

Don't change anything; game is perfect. Enjoy:) Maybe it's time to revisit my old grounds::)

As I have noted before, you and I have very different ideas of good game design, but these statements are not supportable even under your cookie based viewpoint.  A person who has put in more time does have advantages over the new-comer. (I would also say that there is no "must" in game design.)

For mastering weapons I get increased hp and better stanzas.  For mastering more than one weapon of each type I get different rates of attack and different damage over time choices.  This is useful both for PvE and for PvP

In harvest masteer I gain the 360 degree prospection and "pop 10 nodes" and other stanzas of lesser importance to me.  These make my next harvest master easier.  Having all ecosystem masters  mean I can get any harvestable material. (I also get a cool title.)

I can see the concept of rewarding the multi-master (Spirit of...) with some trifle of a boost. (+250 in focus is always nice but it is less than 1 action. It might mean the difference between [a residual of the normal +250] giving me one last swing of the pick, but that's it.) However, putting the stepping stone cookies at each small stage does not attract me; +50 focus isn't worth anything. I don't hold that Ryzom is perfect, but it is very good of its kind.  What I would like to see for ideas is things that would make a real difference, like the ability to heal beasts or NPCs, or  ability to have high enough fame with tribes that their wandering patrols will help me with aggro, not little "cookies" or "merit badges."