Adjustments following players population - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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#27 Added by Bitttymacod 6 years ago [en]

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Sarpedonia

As a very old timer that just had their character restored from pre-database wipe. I find that mats are obnoxiously difficult in comparison to 6+ years ago.

IF there is to be any adjustments, it should return to the days of old.

NO damn way should choice and lower mats only pop in areas of agro.
LEAVE THE AGRO to Sup and Prime roots like it used to be.

I abstain from this poll, as it is too general and far too open to interpretation of the yes vs no.

Hmm. That doesn't match my experience. The "easy mats" that used to be right next to the city gates have moved, it is true, but they are not particularly in aggro areas in the places they have moved to, and there are plenty of areas where the digging is undisturbed by aggro. (I will acknowledge a few cases where a deposit of a particular mat seems to penetrate a bandit camp, but not to the point of impossibility.) The locations of all PR mats is the same as it was prior to the server merge.

-- Bittty (digging since 2008)

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#28 Added by Bitttymacod 6 years ago [en]

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Heernis

I'm a pretty new player. Was just informed about the entry. The real problem for new players is not that they do not come to the materials or whose craft has no corresponding levels. But the money system. When you can accumulate endless money, that's a problem.

There has to be a balance between material and money. Like a capitalist economy. At the moment it seems more like socialism to me. You need to know people who can build something or have equipment, or join a guild. Markets are not filled and it's not worth selling good equipment for lower levels for higher levels. That needs to change.

In my not very humble opinion, being able to accumulate endless money is not a "problem" -- it is inherent in the very premise of the game.

Item: Money is a marker for expressing barter at one remove.

Item: Capitalism is based on the ability of a person or group to gain and control access over raw materials and based on the fact that on Earth all resources are limited.

Item: Human societies in areas where nature produces more than the society needs for survival and civilization do NOT INVENT MONEY.

Item: Atys is a growing plant, illuminated by the sun(s), and therefore producing material without limit.

Conclusion: Capitalism will not work on Atys -- nor should the game be adjusted to make capitalism and the economy of scarcity a viable mode of exchange. This is not socialism, it is post-scarcity society.

The statement, "There has to be a balance between material and money" is an axiom based on the idea that there is an inherent scarcity of raw materials. This axiom is false to fact in Atys and therefore null and void.

There is nothing sacred about the idea of money.

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#29 Added by Fyrosfreddy 6 years ago [en]

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I believe (from previous discussions), what Sarpe's is saying is that post merge, choice and lower mats **already are** harder than they were pre-merge. And yes, I did notice myself after merge that many of my regular choice grind mat spots were now bordering on areas such that you could expect 2 or 3 attacks per prospect rather than 1 every 3 or so proospects.

OTOH some mats (i.e. 250 Exe Zun in Void), were moved to ridiculously easy spots. I have compensated by digging basic instead of choice in desert where in other areas, some desired basic mats (for amp recipes) are quite difficult (middle of kincher spawn for example).

Note, I'm not saying desired mats should be easy but I also don't think that returning and newer players will be frustrated w/ DP, gear wear and tear and inefficient use of hard to find game time. This is exacerbated by the fact that the difficulty / efficiency level varies greatly between regions and faction TPs.

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#30 Added by Gidget 6 years ago [en]

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Bitttymacod

Conclusion: Capitalism will not work on Atys -- nor should the game be adjusted to make capitalism and the economy of scarcity a viable mode of exchange. This is not socialism, it is post-scarcity society.

The statement, "There has to be a balance between material and money" is an axiom based on the idea that there is an inherent scarcity of raw materials. This axiom is false to fact in Atys and therefore null and void.

There is nothing sacred about the idea of money.

Post-scarcity economies are so different from reality that even those who can accept living on a rootball and casting spells at giant insectoids cannot extend their suspension of disbelief far enough to deal with. It causes problems in the minds of those who think every endeavor has to have winners and losers or a power structure that they can climb to the top of.

Just my two dappers worth.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#31 Added by Fyrosfreddy 6 years ago [en]

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There has never been a currency based economy in Ryzom, you can go back to the archived forums and Items for Sale were either bartered for other items or "grind mats". Tho I had mastered HA and MA if i wanted that +165 LA Focus set was gonna cost anywhere between 3,000 and 8,000 grind mats. In 14 years of play, I never bought a crafted item from a merchant.

And Gidget, you undersold yaself ... post was easily worth 57 dappie. And to extend G's point ... post merge the desire for "boosted" items has grown into a "must have". That means for every boosted amp, there's 19 premium amps out there that didn't boost, most of which are given away.

As for unlimited money ... it takes quite a while to get to that point in the post-merge economy. First thing I did after 2 minutes on Silan was head to the stable where I had a case of sticker shock and responded by taking my 4 alts over and stealing their starter cash. Just going about your normal business should be more than enough to pay for ya TPs and Mek Food. The 2 million for apartment and IIRC, 10 million for each capital city GH. takes a while but then it's clear sailing unless ya need to spring for that way outta line 90 million to restore NPC plans.

Just going about my business w/o double dipping w/ alts, I'd earn about 10 million a month from crafts and Occs. When I hit 12, I'll lose 10 to GH or handouts to new players and go from 2 to 12 again next month. Tho, of late, spending time on Tribe Fame, I'd say its cut in half.

But I don't wanna veer to far off the original post subject except that Mats is the current economy. And in that respect its very much like RL ... if ya born w/ a rich daddy, life is easy. And the point Sin is making is "What fun is it having a giant new yacht if everybody has one ? In Ryzom terms, it's not enough to have the biggest stick, it's about making it so that the guy you go up against has a smaller one.

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#32 Added by Sarpedonia 6 years ago [en]

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And this is why I am proud to call you friend and guildmate Freddy.
You are spot on and articulated my point quite well. All mats in desert from Q50 up to Q250 have seemingly gotten less newbie or returning player friendly.

Yes there are some easy no agro mats. But they are only small portions of the craft plans. To craft anything even a crappy basic give away, you have to endure agro for at least half the required mats. This was not really the case at all premerge/database wipe.

Want a very specific example?
Amber and seed. I could sit just at the edge of Dyron and dig till my eyes bled. Q200 but that is how I got my jewel craft up. Likewise for Q250, there was a special corner in the 250 area. Dig away with no issues. the ONLY catch was, you depleted the sources pretty often.

Now, seed is smack dab in the middle of an agro spawn for 50, 200, 250 at least. I have not checked 100 or 150. Very similar scenario for armor mats as well.

If your experience is different, submit and share your finds with the mat map websites please.

Last edited by Sarpedonia (6 years ago)

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#33 Added by Moniq 6 years ago [en]

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Which class do we talk about here? While I had never problem to dig any basic/fine mats for training. And also most of surface excellent just needs knowledge of the specific area.

#34 Added by Fyrosfreddy 6 years ago [en]

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Well i think several things are being discussed.

1. Sin wants fewer high end mats.

2. Sarpedonia's comments, at least what i gathered from in game discussions in Guild Chat was commenting that things have already been made harder post-merge and let's not take it any further. Three things factor in to being an "efficient" dig spot:

Proximity to TP
Proximity of Hawker
All mats within reasonable walk distance

Pre-merge, in desert, I could dig all the choice mats I wanted ... desired choice mats, mind you ... with a short walk from a TP and with a once / twice a day or so aggro attack. Today, yes I can find easy spots for each mat but it's inconvenient as dragging your mek around and long walks to / from TPs and hawkers are often required. To find all 4 mats of ya typical armor / weapon craft close to one another **in a zone that has close access TPs and hawkers** not so much.

Loria Ponds is one such area but, except for Mara is a pain to get to / from and rarely has a Hawker. Lost Valley is probably the most used for this purpose and it remains the only spot that I have seen knock the KT line down to any significance since merge. Access thru Void TP stinks for me but neighboring region HoP is not bad.

Flaming Forest has decent TP and Hawker access but many choice mats are right in aggro spawns. I have adjusted by switching to basic which is OK for me since Harvest XP is meaningless and craft XP yields the same no matter what the mat grade is.

I keep a packer in Void, Lakes and Desert ... can't be bothered w/ Forest. In lakes I keep in Lake Superior cause the no Hawker thing in Loria Ponds is a deal killer for me.

However, to the new or returning player who hasn't mastered all dig regions, the goal will be do dig choice to maximize dig XP and craft in close proximity to a TP and hawker. Not commenting why either is a good or bad thing, but he is correct ... it is harder to dig choice mats relatively undisturbed post-merge at a spot that fits the 3 criteria above.

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#35 Added by Sarpedonia 6 years ago [en]

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The running doesn't bother me so much in comparison of having limited ability to fullfil craft plans without incuring death penalty.

Freddy is correct that my issue is to make sure people don't talk the devs into making it MORE difficult than it is with a preference of reverting to what dig conditions were premerge.

Making digs for general XP hard or impossible for newcomers just does not sell the game to anyone. If we make the game difficult to the point where you need master melee/heal/nuke to dig, we will have a population issue worse than we keep seeing over the years.

Nevrax went under due to poor marketting imo. Maybe it was other things as well, but not selling the game or advertising it doesn't make a game live. Then you add ontop of a huge learning curve and difficult starting in a "WoW" gamer age, This will remain a ghost town.

Basic mats should be agro free or very limited. Increase the agro occurance to match the quality of the mats.

For those that "have no issue" Do you report and share your dig finds on map sites? If not, you can't really expect any positive replies from returning players or new players....let alone agreements with you.

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#36 Added by Moniq 6 years ago [en]

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Sarpedonia

For those that "have no issue" Do you report and share your dig finds on map sites?

No. I gave up making any marks on map, I simply use BM to see where it should be and then it is not hard to locate there. And when I dag somewhere before I usually remember. However, showing spots to others when it comes to a question.

I think its still best to track random ex and then let tracking to lead me. I like random digging, if anything i like on digging :P

Last edited by Moniq (6 years ago)

#37 Added by Sarpedonia 6 years ago [en]

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Well high end mats I believe some secrecy is good. But basic and Fine would be helpful to the community if people share what isn't already shared. Maybe Choice would be good if the digger is generous with knowledge.

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#38 Added by Jahuu 6 years ago [en]

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Sarpedonia

Well high end mats I believe some secrecy is good. But basic and Fine would be helpful to the community if people share what isn't already shared. Maybe Choice would be good if the digger is generous with knowledge.

I got two hints when I was low level digger, try prospecting in herbie groups or near zinuakeens.

Most of my (basic-choice) dig spots I've found by using relatively long time on searching them by exploring and trial and error, or when someone has shown me a spot.

"In Ryzom players together are against the game" and the famous cookie quote are showing we like it hard here. After working to accomplish something, it's more rewarding too ;)

Boosting with sups is everyday now for players, doesnt sound sups have their value or Ryzom style hardness to me. This leads back to this topic.

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#39 Added by Sarpedonia 6 years ago [en]

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I'm all for and ok with the concept of "If you want toys, you have to work for it"
But for basic grinding and skill up garbage not so much. A little challenge sure. But I think if one honestly looks back 6+ years ago, there was a distinct difficulty gap that seemed to work well between PR, Sup and basic garbage materials.

Maybe the high end could have been harder back then, but lower were about right.

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#40 Added by Jahuu 6 years ago [en]

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Sarpedonia

I'm all for and ok with the concept of "If you want toys, you have to work for it"
But for basic grinding and skill up garbage not so much. A little challenge sure. But I think if one honestly looks back 6+ years ago, there was a distinct difficulty gap that seemed to work well between PR, Sup and basic garbage materials.

Maybe the high end could have been harder back then, but lower were about right.

I wasnt around 6+ years ago, (not even half of that lol), so I dont know what happened then, but nowadays you just gotta believe in yourself. Even grindy mats are the toys you gotta put some effort, know the terrain (not to dig where nameds or aggro attack if you cant handle them etc), so just go and try. Worst thing that can happen is some DP that has gone away way before your bag is filled with mats.

Or maybe team up with master digger, get fast experience AND you'll see where materials are.

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#41 Added by Sarpedonia 6 years ago [en]

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Sorry if I came across as unknowing or newb.
I am master dig, master 2hand axe, master ele, master heal etc.... I am merely thinking that just because they are the way they are now, doesn't mean it is ideal for a game to gain popularity or retain new members. Thereby more subscriptions.

Basic should be newb or solo friendly imo. They were once upon a time, and I think they should be again.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Sarpedonia (6 years ago)

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IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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