ROLEPLAY

You all can talk your politics but kitins are comming for you after all! If not Goo...

((I am going to be blunt. Personally, I don't care what the overall outcome is, but I am interested to see where the experiment goes should the outpost remain in the hands of Phaedreas Tears. However... Trilexis, your response(s) is/are rather... charged? Baffling? Passive-aggressive? No single word does it justice. I would probably describe it as hasty, and narrow-minded. To quote yourself:

One would think, since the outpost was handed over to a trusted neutral faction, that it would provide a tactical advantage, not only to the Marauders, but to the opposing faction as well. Since the outpost is in neutral hands, not only could it be considered taboo to attack it, but it is also reason to defend it should Marauders, Karavan, or some other non-kami guild choose to attack. Not to mention, since it is neutral, you have the choice of relocating those forces to the other outpost that you declared on. Is the Kami faction capable at adapting to situations as they come? Or are they so set in stone with their plans that they have to carry them out religiously.
((Ha, religiously, kami, get it?! I'll stop with the bad jokes.))

Regardless of Agan's intentions, or your attack plans, the fact of the current matter is, the outpost is in the hands of Phaedreas Tears, not the Marauders.
---

Next, you claim Bittty is playing Agan's game, that you know he handed the outpost over for specific tactical reasons, and know the timing and whatnot was no coincidence. Instead of spouting ad hominem and strawman arguments at Marauders, and attacking Bittty's character, why not use that mind of yours for turning the game on its head instead. Why not, take advantage of Agan's move and direct your... questionable fury towards your other goals and then decide what to do about the neutral outpost afterwards. It's neutral, not going anywhere, and should non-kami decide to attack it, you can defend it too. Especially since you [statistically] have the population to do so.

Speaking of talking about the neutral outpost, I think it is appropriate to quote you again:Yes, where was your communication? I think if someone appoints himself a neutral distributor of materials, those not in favour should voice their concerns and object, in a civil manner such as the one you suggest. In example:Great idea, start a forum topic about it instead of calling people hypocrites and making generalized statements. Those actions don't really spark discussion in the right direction, especially since you had the nerve to say something like this:Oh I'm sorry. To be Kami does not mean having the sole right to such decisions and the supremacy of having what is and is not morally justifiable. Attacking the ranger outpost simply because it was passed to them at a convenient time for an opposing faction makes it morally justified? Treating Phaedreas Tears with pity because "[they] were part of Agan's game," maintaining course* to attack a neutral faction, on plans of conquest. That seems very, Marauder-ish, for lack of a better word, if you ask me.

*Quote for proof.
And no, I'm not counting this topic as forum discussion because it isn't about Phaedreas Tears giving out OP mats to all in a fair matter. It's about Kami attacking an outpost that was given to Rangers by a Marauder guild and everyone providing their opinion on the matter or the Kami justifying their own decisions.

Also, one more thing, a little further back in your... generous rant:Does someone need to ask for something to receive something? Is it wrong to provide out of good faith when able to do so, even when not asked?))

((In case you're wondering what I mean by your strawman and ad hominem..))
(())

Try abusive.

Zoraï y ma'shizu. Hu'zhan tawa né'zhanto... Ké, hojia hay Bawkaï.

...

An, meër, tseu. Siarcnia ëk ë'nukzzhim.

Mindsets like this are the reason why I stopped playing on this kami character. I refuse to support a faction that has held supremacy for years without giving a damn about anything else. Even if I never pick up the weapons in a war, I would still be indirectly helping the faction.

It is heartening to see that I evaluated correctly, and even in defeat, the faction is still ready to start fighting again for supremacy, with the side-effects we all know too well.

Well, congratulations, you (will probably) win the video game. I hope you're really proud of yourselves.

We had a kami meeting in league with some guild leaders online to talk about Zo-Kian few days after the regular kami meeting, considering it was under attack already by Phaedreas Tears, handover from Shadowalker. Despite what we agreed at kami meeting, to support Obscurus Lilium claiming Zo-Kian, situation had changed.

Some of us seemed angry about this situation, and most of us didnt understand what was going on with Phaedreas Tears. I pointed out that this wasnt what Phaedreas Tears would usually do, they would never be involved in real op battles, and they werent at all for years. It s forbidden for them, as far as i know.

In the end, we agreed that we should talk to Phaedreas Tears first. To explain to them that they shouldnt be standing there in the middle of ongoing op battles, but that we were not blaming them for it, they were most likely caught in Agan's mess. That it's not up to Agan and maraudeurs to decide who is getting outpost and who isnt. Besides, outposts are symbol of power and domination and meant to get earned by wars, especially level 250 ones and that we couldnt give up on this one just because Agan decided otherwise. That we'd like Phaedreas Tears to give up and dont fight npc on this outpost so it remains maraudeurs and we could then attack them as we planned. But, in good faith, to show Phaedreas Tears we care about them and so there is no grudge between us, we could discuss to handover some little outpost to them like we did with other Ranger / Neutral guilds in the past (Le Cercle du Bois d'Almati, Bai Nhori Drakani).
Unfortunately i wasn't able to reach out to Bittty before the handover.

Bittty answer was harsh :
- Op belonged to Shadowalker so it's up to them to decide what to do with it, we have no say in it.
- We had an opportunity to oppose handover defending maraudeurs outpost and fighting rangers (!?)
- Op is now Phaedreas Tears and will remain as such until taken from them, and they would call Rangers and all homins willing to help to defend it.

My opinion on this :
I've spent effort and time to defend Phaedreas Tears in front of kami to give them benefit of the doubt before we had talked to them.
But if Phaedreas Tears are involved in op batlles, negociating with maraudeurs, claiming this outpost, and messing with ongoing op wars, then that's totally different story. Besides they built a kara drill on our land.
We tried to avoid this, we tried to do right and be fair with them and show them some respect offering another outpost. We couldnt do more.

I know i shouldnt take this personnaly but i m sad it had to come to this end, and pissed to have spent efforts trying to avoid this battle for nothing. I'm sorry but this is on Bittty. We offered an honorable way out of this which didnt involve war.

You may not agree with our point of view, but you should also be able to understand it. This is not about Cheng mats, obviously.

((Entire post is OOC))

I feel that I have to respond to certain statements made in this forum thread:
You seem to know my mind better than I do.  In fact, I pay so little attention to Kami/Karavan politics that I had not heard of it at all until Caellan contacted me after the transfer was in process.  Even if I had known -- what does it matter?  The Kami Alliance does not have a right to conquer those outposts on their schedule.

I was in no way a puppet, and again you claim to know my mind (possibly via telepathy?).  Phaedreas Tears took the decision to accept the offer only after three days of consultation within the guild and forming a consensus (not unanimity) on the matter.  We were aware that it was likely almost to a certainty that the Kami Alliance would attack sooner or later (and most likely sooner). We were prepared to allow this attack without resistance on our part (which we did).

We were indulging ourselves in what is called IRL "a noble experiment,"  an undertaking that is almost certainly doomed to failure, but which would prove glorious if it were to succeed.  As I said in a post about defense, on another thread, "If it succeeds, I will be happy. If it fails, I will be satisfied."

Neutrality has nothing to do with it -- nothing whatsoever.  As a guild and as an individual we have the right to do as we wish and to say what we wish. Neutrality has nothing to do with whether or not we would attack the Shadowwalkeers -- Phaedreas Tears is a non-PvP (i.e. player vs. player) guild. I am not sure what "neutrality" means to you, but we obviously disagree somewhat.

These three statements are true. I challenge anyone to show how they are not.
I also said something very similar to them in my conversation with Caellan. I don't see how uttering true statements can be seen as harsh, but perhaps it's possible.

I still do not understand why the Kami's did not attack during the phase 2 of the OP battle.  If they were unwilling to kill defending Rangers, they could have scouted and would have found that there were none. We deliberately left the OP undefended with the absolute minimum threshold necessary (per CoC on handovers).  "Defending a Marauder OP" is said as if it were anathema.  What sweeter success would be possible than frustrating "Agan's Plan" by the ironic "defense" of his Outpost?

This post totally fails to communicate the arrogance with which Caellan instituted both his conversation with Itzy and his conversation with me.  It is still present here in small part: Arrogance is in the condescending offer of "a way out of it...", "...could discuss handover of some little outpost...".

As noted above, Phadreas Tears is NOT involved in "real" OP battles.  Furthermore we did not "negotiate" with Marauders, or even with Agan.  We accepted a gift, using the gameplay rules that did not allow for an absolutely free gift. We did it to run an experiment. It was a neutral experiment, run without fear or favor of any Faction, just as we will assist any homin in need, without fear or favor of any Faction.

By my hand,
MacOd Bittty, Guildleader of Phaedreas Tears.

I have screenshots of both Caellan's conversation with Itzy and with myself. I am willing to share them with anyone who asks, but I cannot figure out how to post them into a forum thread using any hosting site that I am willing to deal with.

ETA: P.S.  I admit that I also am subject to a bit of arrogance in my personality.  I would point out that "peacable" is not a synonym for either "meek" or "weak."

While Cheng root is indeed an Outpost material used in making weapons, there are more uses for weapons than to indulge in intra-homin war.  There are Kitins to slay, King beasts to bring down, bandits to subdue.  Yes, we would be (are) willing to craft weapons for anyone, but that's a different matter. We were making the materials available to all, not just those whose primary goal is to kill other homins.

((And before you say, "but you don't need OP weapons to do that," I would counter, that you don't need OP weapons to war on other homins, either.  You desire them for their convenience and utility.  So do we who do not wage war on homins.))

I might also add, I love my Cheng amps when they are enchanted for healing. Nice and quick, sometimes with instant action, very nice :)

/OOC

@Bittymacod : I think you haven't get the point of my post at all. I'm not talking about what can be done with "Cheng mats", I'm talking about the fact you will provide this to everyone.(and btw it's char opinion not player one)
If you want a clear example: I'm a kamis (which I'm not, it's just for the example) and you are offering me this reource for free BUT you are providing the same to my enemies. I'm in war against people you will help by providing war material, why I should let you do this ? It's a war not care bears (as people seems to take things personally here, I prefer to be clear: I'm not saying that you are care bear :) ), stories that we are talking here.

+ as Caellan said you build a karavan drill on the outpost: This was a really bad move... you are in a kamis believers area building an karavan drill on an outpost in their land is just a provocation nothing else, just that can justify a war in my opinion (but you might not have though about this while building the drill).

And I absolutely do not understand why is that taboo to attack an ranger outpost.

I got your point, Sinvaders. 

My reply to your initial comment was basically to the effect that I found it irrelevant.  By making the mats (be they cheng, tekorn, vedice, or maga) available to all, I am increasing their availability to a group of homins who would otherwise not get them at all. Whether those people are enemies of yours or Rangers looking for a bit of advantage against the Kitins is not my concern.

I built a Karavan drill on Zorai (not Kami) soil.  I happen to like the aesthetics of the Karavan drill better than the Kami one.  It's not an insult -- its irrelevant. I doubt that the results or timing would have been any different if I had built a Kami drill.

As for the last, I have never, throughout this episode, suggested that.  Never.  It is the nature of Outposts that they will be attacked.  The only people who have suggested that, strangely enough, seem to have been Kami.

((Yes, I understand your arguments are toon-based.  I am debating, not arguing.))

Please mind the forum rules and be polite at all times. The thread was about to go off the rails for a while, but it is back on polite ground for the moment, please keep it this way. Thank you!