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#104 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en] 

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Okay, I must be in an alternate universe now; I'm actually (at least mostly) agreeing with both Moniq and Revvy!

Testing takes a ton of dev-hours to do right, and often does not account for all of the ingenuously creative ways the end user (in this case, players) can and will use whatever is released. It's not fun, and it sucks up resources that could be used elsewhere. That's rough for a small team.

That said, there are times where something that is seen as "good enough" and sent prematurely can cause far more problems than waiting. And with Ryzom in particular, I think most of us who have been around a while are used to change happening slowly. We know the team is pretty small, and we have the math skills to know that for a given amount of dev-hours, less devs means more hours. I think that much of the recent kerfluffle may have been a rush to ship, which lead to not testing certain aspects (i.e. - like how equally this patch would treat all four factions, or how equally dynamic events treat each time zone) due to time constraints.

One thing that may help in the future is a combination of communication and patience. I suspect I'm not the only one that would rather hear, "This is a thing we're working on, but it's still not working as intended.", than have a repeat of this fiasco. Sure there will still be some mistakes made, but I think that at least a little more transparency would dampen unrest.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#105 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [fr] 

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@Moniq and Revvy.

It's a well known fact that the testing team is missing working force.
In my original post, I wasn't directly targeting the testing phase. The point was, pushing a big changes live and then fix the issue step-by-step is not a good approach (specially when the changes is meant to change people habits) and here I am not talking about testing the product before delivery.

About waiting, well, we have been waiting 2 years (something like that, I lost the count) before seeing a change related to a certain event (and the change was actually visible during the event but vanished at the next reboot) live on Atys... so waiting couple of months before a patch is more than OK.
Yes you are right, testing is not the only problem and I personally do not understand why there is so rush with (some) changes when, by me, it is not ready to release yet. But it always ends with the testing. And we need much more testers than 2.5 or whats the average per change :/
+10
One thing that may help in the future is a combination of communication and patience. I suspect I'm not the only one that would rather hear, "This is a thing we're working on, but it's still not working as intended.", than have a repeat of this fiasco. Sure there will still be some mistakes made, but I think that at least a little more transparency would dampen unrest.

It's more or less what I was insinuating with my initial message (don't rush for release, take more time, etc).

PS: I'm not saying this group or this group of people are doing BS.

Last edited by Sinvaders (5 years ago)

#106 Added by Loved 5 years ago [en] 

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Preface: I know that there are lots of good hearted volunteers involved. Please do not take this personally. I love all of you who have good intentions.

RE: Not enough testers. Not the full picture:

Guys... if ANYONE had told us that new horizons was 100% going to be removed (let's be honest... that's what it is)

NO ONE would be jumping up and down for that , save the most masochistic "give it to me harder, oh yeah" group. I don't need to name names here.

I understand this argument about testing, but there was no transparency.
We just need some more conversation.

If someone told me 2-4 days, plus no buff, on craft misisons... guys.. I could caclulate for you the outrage here. It's obvious that people who are doing 3/4 lands + even tribes can still be stuck with tons of extra mats, if the timer is increased by that much.

Telling me to go do something else is just dictatorship.

The point is, theoertical discussions can bear lots of fruit, not just actual testing. In fact, depending on WHO your testers are, they may think this is JUST FINE (no sap crytals, punitive florist nerf, useless dappers on nh, no free nh transport for neutral +50s, huge buffs to combat missions and no buff to crafting missions, "just go dig" for sap crystals)

It's not just about how many testers. It's about the diversity of testers, and people who aren't pushing a "make it harder, I love it" agenda.

There are specific posts by someone who literally said (paraphrasing):
Sucks for you, that you didn't see this nerf coming. Haha , I made 30 alts, farmed the events, farmed crystals, and now I have stuff, and you don't . Haha, now you have to suffer, and I don't. But OH I really support this change, it's a necessary change, people had too many dappers and crystal anyway (nevermind that I'm laughing at you because I "planned" for this)

With people like this in the community, I'm not sure testers can even be trusted.

-Theoretical discussion is effective.
-Make your changes MORE transparent.
-Don't tell me I need to join the team or email Tamarea to get involved

The patch notes were written in a way, that I feel, hid the reality that this was a blatent nerf. I don't have to defend my statement. It's plain to see. And it needs to stop.

PS. Since the effects of the patch have hit so much pushback, a rush fix-patch would have been advisable, or even a rollback on the patch (or parts of the patch) Some things should be rushed, some should not.

I'm just playing my part. I don't mean to be as abbrasive as I sound. It's just worth saying. Thanks. I have suggested my 2 cents on how to help fix this. More testers, FINE. More theoertical discussion, more transparency, YES.

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#107 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en] 

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Testers have no power to change anything directly. We can object and point out what we think is wrong with a specific change, however the goal of testing is to make sure it works as expected by rules we do not make. We are not making decisions and we are unable to delay or stop the release.

To be specific about New Horizons 2.0: We did warn that the change will not make players happy and suggested at least to wait for planned mission changes. The matter of mission adjustment was not known to the Testing team by that time. The answer was it will be release separately, with mission changes following shortly after JY 2603 patch.

I am not sure who you should rather address your text, maybe Level Design team?

#108 Added by Loved 5 years ago [en] 

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Moniq
Testers have no power to change anything directly. We can object and point out what we think is wrong with a specific change, however the goal of testing is to make sure it works as expected by rules we do not make. We are not making decisions and we are unable to delay or stop the release.

To be specific about New Horizons 2.0: We did warn that the change will not make players happy and suggested at least to wait for planned mission changes. The matter of mission adjustment was not known to the Testing team by that time. The answer was it will be release separately, with mission changes following shortly after JY 2603 patch.

I am not sure who you should rather address your text, maybe Level Design team?

Thank you for giving your feedback to wait on planned mission changes.

I aimed my feedback at the decision makers who chose to (apparently) disregard smart feedback from testers. In this case I owe some apology to testers ;)

I understand testers are bound by NDA, they cannot/should not share these things before the release. 

My contention was aimed, squarely, at the people who are not sharing the information transparently, and pushing skewed patch notes (not the testers)

Testing is not enough, transparency is key. Hiding information is in bad faith. Not soliciting enough open feedback is a poor decision. So is waiting on the backlash.

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#109 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en] 

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I am not under NDA, however I try to avoid spoiling any changes before it was announced. I will also not quote nor post any internal documents.

And yes, you are right, the transparency is one of the biggest remaining problems I see. Except some long time team members I know a bit, new nicknames keep comming and leaving and I barely know who is who and what is he/she responsible for. There are teams that require NDA thus I have no chance to know who is a member or what they really do.

#110 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en] 

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Loved
In fact, depending on WHO your testers are, they may think this is JUST FINE (no sap crytals, punitive florist nerf, useless dappers on nh, no free nh transport for neutral +50s, huge buffs to combat missions and no buff to crafting missions, "just go dig" for sap crystals)

It's not just about how many testers. It's about the diversity of testers, and people who aren't pushing a "make it harder, I love it" agenda.

Yeah, I think the testing team needs more folks who work hard enough IRL that they aren't up for running around for 3-4 hours a night (longer than they may have in a single session) to do what they used to in 30 minutes to balance out the folks who think TPs should be removed because "RPGs are about travel". (Whose bright idea was it to put the relevant Tryker NPCs so much further from the capitol than other regions?) Maybe a few more who think effort should be rewarded more than alignment, that fame and factions are merely part of the game instead of it's main focus, and that all factions should be balanced. (How is paying Neutral/Ranger only 40% of what a nationalist earns for the same task without offering a chance to earn equal rewards elsewhere not favoritism anyways?) It might also help if there were more meetings around 02-03 UTC or on Sundays so we could get some alternative perspective into a realtime conversation, but I'm not sure that's logistically feasible.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#111 Added by Laoviel 5 years ago [en] 

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Testing needs some requirements, to compare the release candidate to.

Now of course with game testing, requirements could be a vague/generic "is this change fun", which is completely subjective. Which is the crux of the issue, because you *can* refine such requirements, and restate them like:
  • Is X nerf too strong?
  • Does this affect many people's playstyle?
  • Does this affect daily activities for many players?
  • If the backlash is strong, do we have a plan? Do we rollback?
  • Are the prepared PR statements sufficiently satisfying and detailed? (yes, PR releases can be a testing artifact, in a sense)

So this was either a problem of insufficient input to the testing team, or their feedback was simply not taken into consideration, because someone really wanted to push out the changes. At this point the teams seem to be in damage-control mode, and we are still awaiting more rebalancing patches...

Last edited by Laoviel (5 years ago)

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My home is always sweet Yrkanis..

#112 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en] 

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@Moniq: Can you tell us how many testers did you see on pads in the last 2 months please?

Let's see how much the "community" is involved.

Last edited by Revvy (5 years ago)

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Spoiler

#113 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en] 

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Revvy
@Moniq: Can you tell us how many testers did you see on pads in the last 2 months please?

Let's see how much the "community" is involved.

That depends on a test (and the number will tell you nothing about test quality). I am also too lazy to search how long and when tests started so I give you numbers for 3 groups of tests:

Last 6 finished: average 4.3 testers (many miss mac os testing)
Final 4 ongoing tests (Gingo server): average 1.8 testers (all miss mac os testing)
More or less recent 5 minor fixes on Atys (must be tested on Atys): 0.6/1.0 testers (just me and I have no resources to do those two remaining tests as much as I would like so I consider my testing to be not completed in two cases)

I did not include Kitin invasions testing (which runs for several months and was tested with bigger groups, thus I have no specific names - only 2 reports but it was about 10 testers at least during all the testing).

Last edited by Moniq (5 years ago)

#114 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [en] 

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Laoviel
  • Is X nerf too strong?
  • Does this affect many people's playstyle?
  • Does this affect daily activities for many players?
  • If the backlash is strong, do we have a plan? Do we rollback?
  • Are the prepared PR statements sufficiently satisfying and detailed? (yes, PR releases can be a testing artifact, in a sense)

To me, those points should be studied before starting the development of the features... in a timeline ... earlier than testing.

#115 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en] 

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Sinvaders
To me, those points should be studied before starting the development of the features... in a timeline ... earlier than testing.

Totally agreed! Of course, it's one of those things best done with multiple (preferably diverse) views so as to mitigate/avoid bias-induced blind spots. But yes, some discussion before spending time coding and debugging would save a lot of hassles.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#116 Added by Bisugott 5 years ago Multilingual 

Multilingual | English | [Français]
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Compte rendu de la réunion de Ryzom Forge - 24.06.2019

General Questions:

Q: Ne serai t-il pas possible que les toub puissent franchir les Téléporteurs ?
A: Possible oui, mais est ce que c'est vraiment souhaitable ? Non mais vous pouvez toujours faire un post dans idée pour Ryzom.

Luminatrix
Je ne sais pas la téléportation de meks, mais un service de l'étable pour transporter des meks dans une autre étable de la même région serait intéressant.

 

 

 

Q: Serait-il éventuellement possible que NH emméne les mektoubs sur d'autres terres? Si ce n’estt pas le cas, alors, dites treks pour les y amener ou tel? Peut-étre à la capitale seulement
A: La meilleure partie de ryzom est la découverte, les expéditions, cela risque d'enlever  ça, je ne suis pas sur que ce soit une bonne idée :)

 

Xiom
ca peut etre une bonne idée, deplacement téléporteur de capital à capitale, c'est frustant de perdre son matèriel, son temps donc son argent quand un mektoub meure

Q: dans quelle point pourrait atterir cette question je ne sais pas, le jeu se dépeuple à grande vitesse, toutes ses "nouveauté" rende un attrait pour les "présent" mais est-il prévu une campagne publicitaire ou autre afin d'attirer du monde ?
A: il y a une vrai démarche marketing/publicité qui est engagé actuellement, il faudra aussi reéquilibrer le jeu pour garder les nouveaux joueurs

1. Revalorisation des missions du jeu pour diversifier votre plaisir: link

Azileth
ne pratiquant peu les missions...voir pas du tout, elles ont l'avantage de "cadrer" la présence en jeu des "anciens" casser les habitudes, peu frustrer… enfin, a mon sens, pour en revenir aux missions....elles prennent de l'intéret quand un joueur est à un tres haut niveau, sinon, il y va peu..
A: Non les missions sont utile à tous les niveaux, elle sont une source de dappers de renomés et bientot pour certaines, d'UT, donc elles ne sont pas réserver au "anciens ".

Q: Une réduction des gains dapper pour les missions NH / metier, ok ! Mais une récompense de fidélité metier ne serait pas de refus
A: Notre reflexion sur les missions est vaste, la fidélité est un des critére à introduire oui, c'est à l'étude :)

Q: la récompense des dappers pour les cadeaux offerts par NH a déjà été réduite d'un tiers, encore plus, je suppose: mais la loyauté vis-à-vis de l'occupation devrait au moins permettre que les deux grades inférieurs soient utilisés pour les NH. D'un autre côté: l'ancienne méthode consistait à donner des récompenses plus élevées aux grades d'occupation les plus élevés ... une bonne idée de revenir à cela, je pense
A: Oui mais toutes les autres missions on vu le gain de dappers revu à la hausse, ça permet de diversifier les sources. Le but de ces changements est de permettre aux autres missions d'avoir de l‚intérêt, le probléme des dons de métiers au NH c'est que les joueurs n'étaient pas obligés de monter les grades du metier pour avoir les dappers et renomés

 

Luminatrix
Peut-étre que les joueurs seraient aussi plus motivés à faire des métiers si les produits étaient plus utiles. Il y a trés peu de raisons d'aller au-delà de la premiére grade dans la plupart des cas. Et beaucoup d'occupations ne valent tout simplement pas la peine d'étre faites.
Sorum
: joueurs manquent les occupations étendues
A: Oui Sorum, nous en sommes conscients, mais les métiers avancés ont besoin d'un peu de codage avant de revenir sur atys, veuillez étre patient J Le produit des metierss de base peut avoir une utilisation dans les metiers étendues :)

Azileth
pour ma part les missions j'en fais pas comme je l'ai dit… pour la raison qu'elles sont d'une complexité atroce (métiers je parle), et n'incitent pas forcement a recommencer… porteur d'eau par exemple...courir en rond 3h durant ...génial
A:  AH, ok... Non certains métiers sont assez simples, comme porteur d'eau ou cartographe :) Que serait un métier simple sans son coté rébarbatif ? :)

2. Missions Journalières

Tykus
Principe de base:
Chaque jour, vous avez la possibilité de réaliser sept missions dans l'ordre de votre choix, sélectionnées aléatoirement parmi toutes les missions classiques "Tâche" et/ou les missions "don de produit des métiers".

Une option de filtrage vous permet de restreindre les missions sélectionnables en fonction des renommées que vous ne souhaitez pas faire baisser ou monter.

Vous avez également la possibilité de ne faire que certains types de missions, mais cela pourrait avoir un impact sur votre gain final.

Vous pouvez abandonner à tout moment une mission si vous ne souhaitez pas la faire ou bien la faire plus tard. Cependant, celle-ci n'est pas remplacée par une autre et restera dans la liste des missions proposées pour ce jour.

[color=#ffcc00][color=#ffcc00][color=#f0f8ff]Pour le moment, les missions en Primes Racines ne sont pas proposées (qui a dit "ouf !"?)

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Q: les missions doivent étre faiites dans les 24 h ? ou alors dans une journée de 8h à 8 h le lendemain par exemple ?
A: Oui c'est l'heure du serveur qui sera la référence à priori, mais vous en aurez @Namcha ques jours :)

 

Q: Y aura-t-il aussi des missions quotidiennes pour les maraudeurs? et 2. Ces missions sont-elles déjà existant? ou de nouveaux conçus spécialement pour les missions quotidiens?
A: Oui, c'est prévu :) ce sont des missions existantes, mais vous pourrez filtrer les missions qui vous seront proposées, cela inclut les métiers aussi :)

Tykus

À NOTER que ne sélectionner qu'un seul type de mission réduira la récompense.

 Quatre options de filtrage sont proposées:

- Filtrage de la zone dans laquelle effectuer chaque type de mission :

Sélectionnez ici le niveau de la zone (50 --> 250) dans laquelle vous souhaitez effectuer chaque type de mission (artisanat, forage, combat, exploration). Si vous choisissez l'option "Aucune", alors aucune mission de ce type ne vous sera proposée.

- Filtrage des renommées qui ne doivent pas diminuer:

Filtrez ici pour retirer de la liste les missions qui vous feraient perdre contre votre gré certaines renommées.

Ainsi, un Ranger devrait cocher toutes les cases de la ligne "Renommées que vous ne voulez pas diminuer".

- Filtrage des renommées qui ne doivent pas augmenter :

Filtrez ici pour retirer de la liste les missions qui vous feraient gagner contre votre gré certaines renommées.

Ainsi, un Maraudeur devrait cocher toutes les cases de la ligne "Renommées que vous ne voulez pas augmenter".

- Filtrage des métiers :

Filtrez ici quels métiers peuvent vous être proposés. Même si vous les choisissez tous, seul un maximum dequatre missions de métier vous sera proposé aléatoirement. A partir de 5 métiers choisis, plus vous en choisirez, plus la récompense augmentera.

[p]À NOTER que les missions de métier ne requièrent pas que vous ayez le métier actif mais uniquement des produits de métier à donner, y compris ceux obtenus par échange ou achat.
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Tykus
Une capture d'écran de l'interface

3. Nouvelle carte maraudeur

Tykus
Les graphiques pour les cartes sont faits. Nous sommes en train d'ajouter de la végétation dans toute la nouvelle zone.[p]Dans un premier temps, l'ensemble du camp maraudeur sera déplacé vers une grande zone de la nouvelle carte mais pas vers la ville, car la zone qui l'accueillera devra d'abord étre nettoyée par les PJ marauders. Ensuite seulement,  les PNJ maraudeurs rejoindront leur emplacement final sur la zone de la ville..
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Moniq

[p]

Q: Quand la nouvelle carte devrait-elle étre ajoutée sur Atys?
A: Je ne sais pas encore, mais je l'espére rapidement

Q: ...pourquoi tant de choses pour les maraudeurs? c'est un truc que je ne comprends pas[/p]

A: Alors, je ne dirait pas "tant de choses", le gameplay maraudeur a été inrtroduit il y a un bon moment, il faut qu'on le finisse proprement, il est encore incomplet, d'oú les ajouts régulier pour cette faction :)

 
Luminatrix
Je pense que les maraudeurs obtiennent beaucoup de choses parce que nous n'avons pas encore 40% des caractéristiques que possédent les autres factions ...


Q: Quel sera le niveau des foules sur cette nouvelle île?

A: Je pense que ce sera le même niveau que Nexus :)

Q: Cette nouvelle Île sera-t-elle une zone PvP comme Nexus?

A:  Je pense oui, rien n'est encore arrété mais ça me semble logique :)

Azileth
je ne sais pas trop comment fonctionne la faction maraudeur, mais le seul truc que je vois sont les téléporteurs...qui sont super bien placés...

Alee: c'est la raison pour laquelle nous obtenons du contenu, car tout ce que nous avons en tant que faction, ce sont nos téléports;)

[quote=Aleeskandaro] Comme vous le savez, il y a quelques temps, la faction des maraudeurs avait des problémes. Problémes liés à l'utilisation abusive des balises PvP et des interprétations erronées du CdC. En tant que tel, si la nouvelle zone sera 100% PvP (ce qui serait bien), je demanderais de clarifier la section PvP du Code de Conduit et 100% explicite a propós Definition Chain-Kill, et si c'est permir ou pas, avec les consequences pertinents [/quote]

A: Chainkill ne será jamais autorisé ... même sur les maraudeurs, J'essaierai, Alees J

 

Tykus
CoC est la régle générale, mais il utilise également la logique, en supposant que sa balise, oui, mais se faire tuer en boucle juste pour la vengeance n'a pas de sens (même si le gameplay le permet) Mais nous allons essayer de clarifier oui :).
Spieko
moi en tant que maraudeur, ne voudrais pas que notre ville soit une zone PvP, car il y aura tellement d'abus par certains personnes
Luminatrix
Je suis d'accord avec Spieko, je préférerais également que notre ville ne soit pas une zone PvP. Aucune des autres capitales non plus. Cela n'a aucun sens.[color=#ffcc00][color=#ffcc00][color=#ffffff] 
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4. Recrutement

Tykus

• L'Équipe de traduction recrute des volontaires !

  • Pour traduire vers / relire l'espagnol
  • Pour traduire vers / relire le russe
  • Pour traduire vers / relire l'allemand

• L'Équipe d'assistance recrute des volontaires !

  • D'Amérique du Nord
  • D'Amérique latine (parlant espagnol et anglais)
  • Des fuseaux horaires australiens
  • D'Espagne

• L'Équipe d'animation recrute des volontaires !

  • D'Amérique du Nord
  • D'Amérique latine (parlant espagnol et anglais)
  • Des fuseaux horaires australiens
  • D'Espagne

Nous avons notamment besoin d'animateurs américains afin de pouvoir jouer des events roleplay sur les fuseaux horaires US.
Si vous êtes intéressé, veuillez envoyer un courriel à tamarea@ryzom.com.

[color=#ffcc00][color=#ffffff]Q : N'avons nous pas aussi besoin de plus de testeurs ?
R : Si. Pour ça contactez Tamarea sur Rocket [color=#ffffff]https://chat.ryzom.com/direct/Tamarea
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Edited 11 times | Last edited by Bisugott (5 years ago)

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Bisugott(Atys)


#117 Added by Yaandor 5 years ago [fr] 

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You posted a refernce link to cloud.ryzom.com ; however I can't log into it. Is this something that players can look at or is it developers only?

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Yaandor | Cult of Dgambi | He who walks alone
Atys is a stern and determined teacher; willing to repeat the same lesson as often as necessary.

#118 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en] 

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((@Aleeskandaro please fix tags in the post, also it is missing FR version))

Last edited by Moniq (5 years ago)

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