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#103 [en] 

Sinvaders
Very poor excuse.
It's just one more reason to take the time before pushing a patch.
The game have been living years without real additions, players can wait for things to be tested.

How long are you willing to wait?

Seriously, some changes are in test for a month or two. And after that time it is normal that Tamarea _begs_ to have at least one test report for each platform. While, by me, the reasonable minimum should be 15 (3 platforms x 5 languages). I see 51 names in the Testing team. Yes, not everyone is a tester, there are members of other teams who want or need to observe. But don't tell me it is 90%.

Testing is not much fun. It is long and repetitive work, even with testing tools (that DEVs develop along the way). It requires active attitude, it requires you to think in wide context. And it requires good knowledge of the game. Testing is not "do and forget". You need to come back to see if issues you have found were solved. And then you re-test it again, every single issue fix. While you look for any new regressions. And once someone decide it is good enough, it must all be tested again. And after it is released, you test it again. You must keep track of player issues and when those issues are solved somehow, the process starts again. Testing, re-testing, final testing and post-patch testing. And don't forget unofficial testing/helping aside the process, because all development time non-DEV can save, DEVs can use to work on something else.

And now, think about the fact that the Testing team is, as it looks to me, an usual start point for new volunteers. A volunteer comes to the team, learns basics, complete some testing in one or two patch cycles. And then simply leave, because it is as described above. Or find another place for himself/herself in another team. Or another team pull that volunteer for own projects - the lack of members is a problem for most of teams. And that volunteer has no or just a little time or will for any more future testing.

Yes you are right, testing is not the only problem and I personally do not understand why there is so rush with (some) changes when, by me, it is not ready to release yet. But it always ends with the testing. And we need much more testers than 2.5 or whats the average per change :/

#104 [en] 

Okay, I must be in an alternate universe now; I'm actually (at least mostly) agreeing with both Moniq and Revvy!

Testing takes a ton of dev-hours to do right, and often does not account for all of the ingenuously creative ways the end user (in this case, players) can and will use whatever is released. It's not fun, and it sucks up resources that could be used elsewhere. That's rough for a small team.

That said, there are times where something that is seen as "good enough" and sent prematurely can cause far more problems than waiting. And with Ryzom in particular, I think most of us who have been around a while are used to change happening slowly. We know the team is pretty small, and we have the math skills to know that for a given amount of dev-hours, less devs means more hours. I think that much of the recent kerfluffle may have been a rush to ship, which lead to not testing certain aspects (i.e. - like how equally this patch would treat all four factions, or how equally dynamic events treat each time zone) due to time constraints.

One thing that may help in the future is a combination of communication and patience. I suspect I'm not the only one that would rather hear, "This is a thing we're working on, but it's still not working as intended.", than have a repeat of this fiasco. Sure there will still be some mistakes made, but I think that at least a little more transparency would dampen unrest.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#105 [fr] 

@Moniq and Revvy.

It's a well known fact that the testing team is missing working force.
In my original post, I wasn't directly targeting the testing phase. The point was, pushing a big changes live and then fix the issue step-by-step is not a good approach (specially when the changes is meant to change people habits) and here I am not talking about testing the product before delivery.

About waiting, well, we have been waiting 2 years (something like that, I lost the count) before seeing a change related to a certain event (and the change was actually visible during the event but vanished at the next reboot) live on Atys... so waiting couple of months before a patch is more than OK.
Yes you are right, testing is not the only problem and I personally do not understand why there is so rush with (some) changes when, by me, it is not ready to release yet. But it always ends with the testing. And we need much more testers than 2.5 or whats the average per change :/
+10
One thing that may help in the future is a combination of communication and patience. I suspect I'm not the only one that would rather hear, "This is a thing we're working on, but it's still not working as intended.", than have a repeat of this fiasco. Sure there will still be some mistakes made, but I think that at least a little more transparency would dampen unrest.

It's more or less what I was insinuating with my initial message (don't rush for release, take more time, etc).

PS: I'm not saying this group or this group of people are doing BS.

Last edited by Sinvaders (5 years ago)

#106 [en] 

Preface: I know that there are lots of good hearted volunteers involved. Please do not take this personally. I love all of you who have good intentions.

RE: Not enough testers. Not the full picture:


Guys... if ANYONE had told us that new horizons was 100% going to be removed (let's be honest... that's what it is)

NO ONE would be jumping up and down for that , save the most masochistic "give it to me harder, oh yeah" group. I don't need to name names here.

I understand this argument about testing, but there was no transparency.
We just need some more conversation.

If someone told me 2-4 days, plus no buff, on craft misisons... guys.. I could caclulate for you the outrage here. It's obvious that people who are doing 3/4 lands + even tribes can still be stuck with tons of extra mats, if the timer is increased by that much.

Telling me to go do something else is just dictatorship.

The point is, theoertical discussions can bear lots of fruit, not just actual testing. In fact, depending on WHO your testers are, they may think this is JUST FINE (no sap crytals, punitive florist nerf, useless dappers on nh, no free nh transport for neutral +50s, huge buffs to combat missions and no buff to crafting missions, "just go dig" for sap crystals)

It's not just about how many testers. It's about the diversity of testers, and people who aren't pushing a "make it harder, I love it" agenda.

There are specific posts by someone who literally said (paraphrasing):
Sucks for you, that you didn't see this nerf coming. Haha , I made 30 alts, farmed the events, farmed crystals, and now I have stuff, and you don't . Haha, now you have to suffer, and I don't. But OH I really support this change, it's a necessary change, people had too many dappers and crystal anyway (nevermind that I'm laughing at you because I "planned" for this)

With people like this in the community, I'm not sure testers can even be trusted.

-Theoretical discussion is effective.
-Make your changes MORE transparent.
-Don't tell me I need to join the team or email Tamarea to get involved


The patch notes were written in a way, that I feel, hid the reality that this was a blatent nerf. I don't have to defend my statement. It's plain to see. And it needs to stop.

PS. Since the effects of the patch have hit so much pushback, a rush fix-patch would have been advisable, or even a rollback on the patch (or parts of the patch) Some things should be rushed, some should not.

I'm just playing my part. I don't mean to be as abbrasive as I sound. It's just worth saying. Thanks. I have suggested my 2 cents on how to help fix this. More testers, FINE. More theoertical discussion, more transparency, YES.

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#107 [en] 

Testers have no power to change anything directly. We can object and point out what we think is wrong with a specific change, however the goal of testing is to make sure it works as expected by rules we do not make. We are not making decisions and we are unable to delay or stop the release.

To be specific about New Horizons 2.0: We did warn that the change will not make players happy and suggested at least to wait for planned mission changes. The matter of mission adjustment was not known to the Testing team by that time. The answer was it will be release separately, with mission changes following shortly after JY 2603 patch.

I am not sure who you should rather address your text, maybe Level Design team?

#108 [en] 

Moniq
Testers have no power to change anything directly. We can object and point out what we think is wrong with a specific change, however the goal of testing is to make sure it works as expected by rules we do not make. We are not making decisions and we are unable to delay or stop the release.

To be specific about New Horizons 2.0: We did warn that the change will not make players happy and suggested at least to wait for planned mission changes. The matter of mission adjustment was not known to the Testing team by that time. The answer was it will be release separately, with mission changes following shortly after JY 2603 patch.

I am not sure who you should rather address your text, maybe Level Design team?

Thank you for giving your feedback to wait on planned mission changes.

I aimed my feedback at the decision makers who chose to (apparently) disregard smart feedback from testers. In this case I owe some apology to testers ;)

I understand testers are bound by NDA, they cannot/should not share these things before the release. 

My contention was aimed, squarely, at the people who are not sharing the information transparently, and pushing skewed patch notes (not the testers)

Testing is not enough, transparency is key. Hiding information is in bad faith. Not soliciting enough open feedback is a poor decision. So is waiting on the backlash.

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#109 [en] 

I am not under NDA, however I try to avoid spoiling any changes before it was announced. I will also not quote nor post any internal documents.

And yes, you are right, the transparency is one of the biggest remaining problems I see. Except some long time team members I know a bit, new nicknames keep comming and leaving and I barely know who is who and what is he/she responsible for. There are teams that require NDA thus I have no chance to know who is a member or what they really do.

#110 [en] 

Loved
In fact, depending on WHO your testers are, they may think this is JUST FINE (no sap crytals, punitive florist nerf, useless dappers on nh, no free nh transport for neutral +50s, huge buffs to combat missions and no buff to crafting missions, "just go dig" for sap crystals)

It's not just about how many testers. It's about the diversity of testers, and people who aren't pushing a "make it harder, I love it" agenda.

Yeah, I think the testing team needs more folks who work hard enough IRL that they aren't up for running around for 3-4 hours a night (longer than they may have in a single session) to do what they used to in 30 minutes to balance out the folks who think TPs should be removed because "RPGs are about travel". (Whose bright idea was it to put the relevant Tryker NPCs so much further from the capitol than other regions?) Maybe a few more who think effort should be rewarded more than alignment, that fame and factions are merely part of the game instead of it's main focus, and that all factions should be balanced. (How is paying Neutral/Ranger only 40% of what a nationalist earns for the same task without offering a chance to earn equal rewards elsewhere not favoritism anyways?) It might also help if there were more meetings around 02-03 UTC or on Sundays so we could get some alternative perspective into a realtime conversation, but I'm not sure that's logistically feasible.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#111 [en] 

Testing needs some requirements, to compare the release candidate to.

Now of course with game testing, requirements could be a vague/generic "is this change fun", which is completely subjective. Which is the crux of the issue, because you *can* refine such requirements, and restate them like:
  • Is X nerf too strong?
  • Does this affect many people's playstyle?
  • Does this affect daily activities for many players?
  • If the backlash is strong, do we have a plan? Do we rollback?
  • Are the prepared PR statements sufficiently satisfying and detailed? (yes, PR releases can be a testing artifact, in a sense)

So this was either a problem of insufficient input to the testing team, or their feedback was simply not taken into consideration, because someone really wanted to push out the changes. At this point the teams seem to be in damage-control mode, and we are still awaiting more rebalancing patches...

Last edited by Laoviel (5 years ago)

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My home is always sweet Yrkanis..

#112 [en] 

@Moniq: Can you tell us how many testers did you see on pads in the last 2 months please?

Let's see how much the "community" is involved.

Last edited by Revvy (5 years ago)

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#113 [en] 

Revvy
@Moniq: Can you tell us how many testers did you see on pads in the last 2 months please?

Let's see how much the "community" is involved.

That depends on a test (and the number will tell you nothing about test quality). I am also too lazy to search how long and when tests started so I give you numbers for 3 groups of tests:

Last 6 finished: average 4.3 testers (many miss mac os testing)
Final 4 ongoing tests (Gingo server): average 1.8 testers (all miss mac os testing)
More or less recent 5 minor fixes on Atys (must be tested on Atys): 0.6/1.0 testers (just me and I have no resources to do those two remaining tests as much as I would like so I consider my testing to be not completed in two cases)

I did not include Kitin invasions testing (which runs for several months and was tested with bigger groups, thus I have no specific names - only 2 reports but it was about 10 testers at least during all the testing).

Last edited by Moniq (5 years ago)

#114 [en] 

Laoviel
  • Is X nerf too strong?
  • Does this affect many people's playstyle?
  • Does this affect daily activities for many players?
  • If the backlash is strong, do we have a plan? Do we rollback?
  • Are the prepared PR statements sufficiently satisfying and detailed? (yes, PR releases can be a testing artifact, in a sense)

To me, those points should be studied before starting the development of the features... in a timeline ... earlier than testing.

#115 [en] 

Sinvaders
To me, those points should be studied before starting the development of the features... in a timeline ... earlier than testing.

Totally agreed! Of course, it's one of those things best done with multiple (preferably diverse) views so as to mitigate/avoid bias-induced blind spots. But yes, some discussion before spending time coding and debugging would save a lot of hassles.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#116 Multilingual 

Multilingual | [English] | Français

Ryzom Forge meeting report - 24.06.2019

General Questions:

Q: Wouldn't it be possible that mektoubes use Teleporters?

A: Possible yes, but desirable? No but you can make a post on "Ideas for Ryzom".

Luminatrix
I don't know about meks teleporting, but a service from the stables to transport meks to another stable in the same region for a fee would be interesting.

Q: Would it eventually be possible for NH to other lands for the mektoub? or if not that, then, say, treks to get them there or such like? perhaps to the captial city only.

A: The best part of ryzom is discovering, treks... This, can avoid this, not sure it's a good idea 

Xiom
That could be a good Idea, teleport from capital to capital, its frustrating to lose one's materials, time and money when a mektoub dies

Q: in what point could this issue land I do not know, the game is depopulating at high speed, all its "novelty" makes it an attractive the "present" but is there an advertising campaign or other to attract the world?
A: There is a real marketing/advertising approach currently underway, we will also have to rebalance the game to keep the new players

 

1. Revaluation of the game's missions to expand your fun: link

Azileth
Not practicing missions very often... or not at all, they have the advantage of "framing" the presence in play of "old" people breaking habits, can frustrate... Anyway, in my opinion, regarding missions, they become interesting when a player is high level, if not.. there is little
A: No, the missions are useful at all levels, they are a source of fame and soon for some, UT, so they are not reserved for the "old" ones.  No, the missions are useful at all levels, they are a source of fame and soon for some, UT, so they are not reserved for the "old" ones.

Q: A reduction of dapper rewards for NH/Occ OK! But a reward for fidelity to occ wouldnt be bad
A: Our reflection on missions ist vast. Fidelity is one of the criteria to be introducet, its being studied

Q: the dappers reward for NH gift giving has already been reduced by a third, reducing that yet more is i suppose meant: but the occupation loyalty i feel should at least still allow for the two lower grades to be used for NH gift giving. On the other hand: the old way was that higher grades of occu gave higher rewards... a good idea to return to that i think.
A: Yes, but all the other missions have seen the increase in the number of dappers, which allows us to diversify the sources. The purpose of these changes and to allow other missions to have interest, the problem of trade donations to the NH is that players did not have to move up the ranks of the trade to have the dappers and reputations.
Luminatrix
Perhaps players would also be more motivated to do occupations if the products were more useful. There is very little reason to go beyond grade 1 in most.  And a lot of occupations are just not worth doing at all.
Sorum
players are missing the extended occupations
A: Yes Sorum, we aware of that, but the extended occupations need a bit coding before back on atys, please be patient :). Basics occupations product may have a use in the extended occupations :)

Azileth
For my part i haven't done missions as i said. For the reason that they're are of an atrocious complexity (occ i mean) and don't really motivate you to start over... water carrier for example, run in circles 3h, super!
A:  AH, okay..... No, some occupations are quite simple, such as water carrier for cartographers. What would a simple occupation be without its boring side?

2. Daily Missions

Tykus
Basic Principle:
Every day, you have the opportunity to carry out seven missions in the order of your choice, randomly selected from all the "Task" missions and/or "Occupation product donation" missions.

A filtering option allows you to restrict the select-able missions according to the fames that you do not want to lower or raise.

You also have the option of completing only certain types of missions, but de-selecting missions may have an impact on your final gain.

You can abandon a mission at any time if you do not want to do it or do it later. However, this one is not replaced by another and will remain in the list of missions proposed for today.

[p]For the moment, Prime Roots missions are not available (who said "fiuuu!"?)

Q: Missions have to be done within 24h or so in a day from 8am to 8am the next day for example?
A:Yes it's the server time that will be the reference a priori, but you'll have some every days: )[/p]

Q: Will there be daily missions for marauders too?  and 2. Are these random, already existing missions? or new ones made specifically for daily sets?
A: Yes, its intended :) ...  these are existing missions, but you will be able to filter the missions that will be proposed to you, this includes the occs too :)

Tykus
Note Selecting only one type of mission will reduce the reward.
Four filtering options are available:

- Filtering of the area in which to perform each type of mission:

Select here the level of the area (50 --> 250) in which you want to perform each type of mission (craft, forage, combat, exploration). If you choose the "None" option, then no mission of this kind wil be offered to you

- Filtering of fame that should not decrease:

Here, you have the option to apply a filter to remove from the list those missions that would cause you to lose some of your fame.
Thus, a Ranger should check all the boxes in the "Fame that you do not want to decrease" line.


- Filtering of fame that should not increase:

Here, you have an option to apply  filter to remove from the list those missions that would cause you or win some fame.
Thus, a Marauder should check all the boxes in the "Fame that you do not want to increase" line.


- Filtering of occupations:
Filter here which occupations can be offered to you. If you choose all of them, a maximum of four occupation missions can be randomly selected. Choosing all occupations considerably increases the reward

Note: Occupation missions do not require that you have the occupation active but only occupation products to give, including those obtained by exchange or purchase.
Tykus
A screen of the interface

3. New Marauder Map

Tykus

The graphics for the maps are done. We are currently adding vegetation in all new zone.

First, the entire marauding camp will be moved to a large area of the new map but not to the city, as the area that will host it will first have to be cleaned by the marauding PJs. Only then will the marauding NPCs reach their final location in the city area...
Moniq

Q: When is the new map planned to be added on Atys?
A: I don't know yet but I hope soon :)

Q: Why are there so many things for marauders? Its something i don't understand..
A:  So, I wouldn't say "so many things", the marauding gameplay was introduced a while ago, we have to finish it cleanly, it's still incomplete, hence the regular additions for this faction.
Luminatrix
I think marauders are getting many things because we don't have a good 40% of the features other factions do yet...

Q: which level will the mobs have on this new island ?
A: I think it will be the same level as nexus

Q: Will this new Island be a PvP area like nexus?
A:  I think so yes, nothing is fixed yet, but make sense :)
Azileth
I do not really know how the marauding faction works, but the only thing I see are the teleporters ... which are super well placed ..
Alee: Precisely, thats the reason we're getting content, because all we have as a faction is our teleports ;)[/quote]

[quote=Aleeskandaro] As you know, there were some issues inside marauder faction a while ago. Issues around abuse of PvP tag and CoC misinterpretation.  As such, if new area will be 100% PvP (Which would be nice), i would kindly request the PvP section of CoC be clarified and 100% explicit about:  Definition of Chain-kill and whether Chain Kill is permitted or not, with the corresponding consequences... it needs to be explicit in the CoC [/quote]

A:  chainkill, never be permited... even on marauders... I will, Alees :)

Tykus
CoC is the general rules, but it also uses logic, assuming its tag, yes, but getting killed in a loop just for revenge doesn't make sense (even if the gameplay allows it). But we will try to clarify yes :)
Spieko
I as a marauder really dont like our city to be a pvp zone, because there is gonna be so much abuse by certain people
Luminatrix
I agree with Spieko, I would also prefer our city not to be a PvP zone. None of the other capitals are, either. It makes no sense.

4. Recruitment

Tykus

Translation team recruits volunteers!
To translate / proofread into Spanish
To translate / proofread into Russian
To translate / proofread into German


Support team recruits volunteers!
From North America
From South America (speaking Spanish and English)
From Australia timezone
From Spain

Event team recruits volunteers!
From North America
From South America (speaking Spanish and English)
From Australia timezone
From Spain

In particular, we need American animators in order to be able to play roleplay events in US time slots.

If you are interested please send a mail to tamarea@ryzom.com

As Moniq use to say: we need testers too, in this case just send a Dm to tamarea on rocket: https://chat.ryzom.com/direct/Tamarea

Edited 11 times | Last edited by Bisugott (5 years ago)

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Bisugott(Atys)


#117 [fr] 

You posted a refernce link to cloud.ryzom.com ; however I can't log into it. Is this something that players can look at or is it developers only?

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Yaandor | Cult of Dgambi | He who walks alone
Atys is a stern and determined teacher; willing to repeat the same lesson as often as necessary.
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