OFFICIAL NEWS

Ryzom Forge Sitzung -4. juli 2016

ein IRC (freenode) #ryzomforge
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=ryzomforge

1 - Umkehrbarkeit des Ryzom Abos
2 - Öffnen von Silan
3 - Verbesserung der Kommunikation zwischen Ryzom Forge (RF) und dem Ryzom Team (RT)
4 - Organisation und strukturierung von Ryzom Core; verbesserung der Kommunikation zwischen Ryzom Core (RC) und dem Ryzom Team (RT)

1 Reversibility of Ryzom subscriptions

The main reproach we have by Steam users is that Ryzom is not a real free to play because if we subscribe one account once, we must keep it subscribed to be able to play it.
That's why Winch Gate (WG) decided to make possible to go on playing with a subscribed account when it is unsubscribed, with some limitations. 
It's too much difficult to block the stanzas to level 125 ones, so the accounts that will be unsubscribed will be accessible with the limits below:
- equipment limited to Q125;
- all storage places available (GH, appartment, packers, mount) but to take items only, not to add some (or the contrary, still to think about it), excepted on the mount;
- no double XP anymore.
All the limits will disappear as soon as the accounts will be subscribed again.

Q: Are these PROPOSALS or actually going to happen soon? This sounds excellent!
A:  It will happen soon.
Q: I also take it that actions will be restricted (q250 action won't work on q125 toon).


Q:The equipment will be limited to q125 but not the 250 skills?
A: You're right, since lowering temporarily the skills to the 125 level would be too complex.

Log:
Shaliss, if you've got a 125 amp, you won't get the bonus for the 250 actions.
*Shaliss: Indeed, but for digging for example, even with a 125 equipment, you can get 250 mats (with some difficulties)
*Lyne: No Shaliss: you can't use a 250 pick. So no digging in 250 area (Or maybe I haven't well understood)
*Shaliss: Indeed you can use a 250 pick at level 1 :)
<badnet> you can use a q250 pick any time now even unsubscribed though... so this will change
*Siela: Tamarea: I thinkg that for magic and melee it will be ok, but it will cause troubles for digging and crafting
<Shaliss> oui d'ailleurs cette "liberté" c'est ce qui permet à de nombreux joueurs de forer avec des alts
*Lyne: Shaliss: if you're unsubbed, you cannot use a 250 pick anymore. Whatever your level
*Shaliss: Yes by the way this "freedom" is what allows lots of players to dig with alts
*Shaliss: Lyne, I believe that without being subscribed, you can currently use a q250 pick
*Siela: Since a char unsubscribed will be able to dig and craft 250
Siela: It's true, Shaliss
*Siela: Only nation pickas have level limitations
* Shaliss *agreed*
<Lyne summarizes> Globally, for digging, since the unsubscribed chars won't be able to equip a pick above q150, they won't be able to dig in areas higher than q150. And I was asking Tamarea if unsubscribed chars would be limited to 125 level when grinding (you can grind digging above 150 level even with q150 pick in q150 area... It's very long, but possible)
*Shaliss: At the same time, the idea is to convince player to not unsubscribe
<Lyne> *Tamarea: Lyne, I don't know yet. The big outiles I mentionned are undergoing coding, but there are still things to refine
<Lyne> *Siela: And... what about the stats?
<Lyne> *Tamarea: By the way, you comments will be forwarded to the Dev
<Lyne> *Siela: A 250 char will still have a lot more hp with 150 equipment than a 'normal' (meaning never-sub) char with 150
<Guildenstern> so all that would be capped too?
<nuts> well, i think it will be unwelcome
<nuts> cause unsubscribe account will not be able to do anything honnestly
<Lyne> They can subscribe back :-p
<Guildenstern> You think it would be worse than having to use a free to play?  I don't think so, really.
<Lyne> And if they just want to enjoy the 13th birthday events, they can
<nuts> cause, yeah you will still be able to connect but they will have nothing to do in-game
<SIELA1915> it will be as good as f2p players
<nuts> other than camping stable :D
<SIELA1915> and f2p people CAN do stuff
<nuts> SIELA1915: yes, but we are talking about high level account not the one of a new player
<Lyne> *Tamarea: I'll forward your comments to the Dev
<Lyne> *Deed: You don't touch the stable :p
<SIELA1915> (yes nuts, but otherwise everybody that has lvled all he wants would unsubscribe

2 Opening of Silan

We loose a lot of new players on Silan because of several reasons other than "old game"'s one: Silan is usually quite empty; the new player has to learn in a very short time a lot of difficult gameplay; he only sees basic equipment and sorts; he does not see at all the reality of the game: Silan is not a sandbox at all...
For all these reasons, Winch Gate has decided to open Silan by adding a double teleport between Silan and capitals (+ marauder camp).
Later, it could be possible to remove Silan and replace it by new tutorials missions directly on the Mainland (will be to see with RF). But waiting for this day, it will be a double-way teleport.
Lore Team is working on the explanation of this opening, then it will share it with Event Team so we will have events to explain this in RP.
Once again, do not hesitate to share your opinions and ideas about these two topics. Dev Team is working on them, they are not over and so it would be easy to improve them with your ideas.

Log:
<Guildenstern> if Silan is removed, would it be possible to put the area to other use? The marauders are still looking for a home.
<nuts> Give us the Nexus !
*Deed : And that Rangers could have access to Silan, it's more RP ?
<badnet> players are suggesting improvements for silan instead of removal of silan. particularly... removing silan will be hard on many who have high level, several-years-old silan helper accounts for helping newbies. It has been proposed to simply add more mainland-like content on silan to make it more representative to mainland... i think removal will cause some upset. It has been proposed to simply add more mainland-like content on silan to make it more representative to mainland... i think removal will cause some upset.
*Lyne: Anyway, the ones who didn't get the achievements in Sian, will be happy.
*Tamarea : Guildenstern, yes, any unused island can potentially be re-used.
<badnet> reference: http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/25289/1 That post stated out as just one suggestion for silan but... many replied with multiple ideas. the community does have feedback to give the dev team, if asked.
<Guildenstern> That could be a week long event instead.
*Glorf: I don't see any interest in it... There will be HL on Silan who'll be able to make the island content too easy.
<Guildenstern> Then limit the levels on Silan to 50?
*Nuts: The problem is that Silan is emplty... if HL go there it will be less empty.It's mask. But lots of players would be happy to be able to go back. And explain the game to newcomers.
*Glorf: There's already Universe channel for that.
*Siela : Yes, but we should limit the skills/gear on Silan.
*Deed: Or only rangers :)
<SIELA1915> well, if they say it's too hard to implement...
<badnet> this is getting a little out of hand :) let me shed some light on silan. There are a lot of skills not avaialble on silan at all no matter what level. Even at alevel 84 digging its very bad, it does not make it easy at all. Plus you would take months to years to get to 80 combat , with no major advantages. Stanzas are not available on silan that are available on mainland.The issue is that silan is not a real representation of the reality of mainland. No corporal, overseer, delivery missions, no way to teleport, no income. lots of walking. Silan is a great way to learn that digging is slow and painful and melee is amazing. It is a biased picture of ryzom but... it DOES show you that everyone is VERY helpful. Because heroic high level silan accounts who have been there for years, stay, to help out, as their only purpose.
<Guildenstern> That's a really good argument to abolish Silan.
<badnet> i would argue that it's a  good argument to polish silan by making it relevant. Else... you have to make an entirely new area from scratch. An uncut diamond is still a diamond.
<Guildenstern> The low level mainland areas are underused, so that's what you trade.
<badnet> you don't throw it away because it's not polished. No one will ever use the low level mainland areas because the population of ryzom is simply too small. high level mainland players immediately "adopt" new players from silan and teach them the game because silan has not provided enough background, hence, the starter towns are abandoned and everyone digs in q200 thesos with a mainland mentor. I apologise for going so far off topic. For example silan has not shown you how to use teleport pacts, or how to craft or kill for dappers. now the high level player steps in to educate you, where silan should have done the work.
<Tamarea> Thank you Badnet, it's very interesting.
<badnet> you could eliminiate silan if you so choose, at the discontent of some, but you would havet o make something new either way, to get the job done right (you can make all starter towns have missions for newbies for example. my core argument is that you have a good framework on silan, now you must build on it.
<badnet> thank you for listening to my feedback.
<Guildenstern> A second tier, maybe, with the advanced topics that aren't taught.  Is that what you're saying? That could also be done on the mainland.
<badnet> yes or some really small fixes (add one teleport pact, add a corporal, add an overseer).
<Glorf> badnet: there is quite a lot of game where not everything is given in game (knowledge wise) but you have to seek it, either by trying, speaking with players or out if game ressources. And focus on stuff that matters for the biggest part of the players.
<badnet> my counter argument is... it probably won't take a lot of work to add a few more npcs and one tp, the mainlanders will still "adopt" the newbies after silan anyway.
<SIELA1915> that would be the tool to no more have to use 3DSMax and ryzom studio Glorf, so that we can get new content?
<badnet> there is a complaint on ryzom facebook where a person said they had to pretend not to speak english so they would not constantly be helped by mainland veterans :P some people want the game to show them how it works.

3 Improvement of communication between Ryzom Forge (RF) and Ryzom Team (RT)

Ryzom Forge (RF) and Ryzom Team (RT, so the volunteers under Non Disclosure Agreement) have difficulties to communicate because of different chats and workplaces. It occures that RF has to wait a too much long time before to have a validation or an help from RT. And that's not good at all, neither for the rythm of addition of new content, neither for RF motivation.
My idea is to do otherwise: instead of having RF on one side and RT on the other one, let's have a commun workplace and chat to gather all the people who have to work together on a same project (RT + RF members).
Because RT daily uses the free version of Slack, I've chosen to use Slack for RF too (waiting to maybe find an open source tool that offers almost the same tools than Slack).
For this, I've created a new Slack called Ryzom Forge. This Slack is not restricted to @ryzom.com emails like RT Slack is, so RF and RT members can join it and talk together on it.

Then, I've asked PtitBill (leader of Level Design Group) to create one channel for each RF Level Design project, and to start inviting a few RF members in it for test purpose. And it works!
The idea is to invite in each project channel the RF creator of the project + all the ones who will be involved in this project: Arkitect(s), Graphics, Lorists, Devs... from both RT and RF. 
This should help a lot to better communicate, share the ideas, improve the motivation and dynamism around each project, and make them been implemented in game a lot faster than they are now.

To all: if you'd like to join Ryzom Forge Slack, please contact me by private message, ingame mail or to tamarea@ryzom.com, telling your email adress so I'll send you an email invitation. 

Q: Public announcements and RF meetings will stay on IRC?
A: Yes. We need another tool than IRC for the common RF-RT work, but IRC will stay our chat to publically communicate.

Q: People interested about what is happening will still be welcome on RF RC chat ?
R: Yes, of course! It won't change anything regarding our current use of IRC. But we now need another tool to work between RF and RT.

4 Organization and structuring of Ryzom Core; improvement of communication between Ryzom Core (RC) and Ryzom Team (RT)

The problem we have is that Ryzom Core (RC) is not organized at all. No structure, nobody to welcome and guide the C++ devs who join to help the game, no efficient interaction with Ryzom Team (RT) to know its dev needs, nobody from RT to contact to know if his RC project is interesting for the game...
(Precision: C++ Devs work in RC and PHP ones work in RT).
For these reasons, each time we have a C++ dev applying to join and help Ryzom, we send it towards Ryzom Core (RC)... and then we loose it in several days. What is a pity...
That's why I try to do something to help Ryzom Core devs who want to help Ryzom game to organize themselves and to have a real interaction with RT devs.
For this, I've worked on 2 ways: structuration of RC and addition of a common chat and workplace.

Structuration of RC:
My idea is to have a leader "team" to guide RC and welcome the new C++ devs who want to help the game, and to have a real link between RC and RT devs.
I think about Kervala, Nimetu and Kaetemi to the guide" part (but maybe other ones would be interested!), and to Riasan and Kervala (and of course Ulukyn if he has time) for the "link" part (that means the "report to RC the needs of RT teams, and report to RT the ideas and progresses of RC). 
Kervala and Riasan have already accepted. Still have to contact the other ones.

Common chat:
I've created another Slack called Ryzom Core. The RC and RT devs wanted to join and help Ryzom will all be inside. That will permit to have a real dev group for Ryzom, with guides and projects.
To all: if you'd like to join Ryzom Core Slack, please contact me by private message, ingame mail or to tamarea@ryzom.com, telling your email adress so I'll send you an email invitation. 

Common workplace:
Current RC wiki is not the best way to organize Ryzom's dev group, according to Kervala.
That's why he is creating a new mediawiki (same than Ryzom Core one) that will be called core.ryzom.com. This mediawiki will be linked to Ryzom Forge and Ryzom Wiki's ones: only 1 inscription to access the 3 + tab system to swtich from one to another one.

Message from Kervala: 
I created new wiki for Ryzom Core : http://core.ryzom.kervala.net. Because the current one is really hard to find : https://ryzomcore.atlassian.net/wiki/display/RC/Build+Source+on+W indows and is not hosted on the same server than other wikis. The final URL when vl will have added a new DNS entry will be : http://core.ryzom.com.
This wiki will centralize all documents related to code.
We decided to only keep one language : English. It'll be easier to manage like that and since technical english is easy to understand : click on ..., install ..., etc... Problem when we have several languages is we have to update all translations when one is changed. For code, it can be problematic.So I think it's better to have only ONE version. We'll need to update links between existing wikis to put the new one. 
And for this wiki, we'll use the same existing account than other wikis.

I'll add that the aim of this organisation is especially not to divide Ryzom Core in tow, but simply to allow the ones working on Ryzom to work better together and with the RT dev


These 2 projects (RF and RC ones) are still in progress, but I hope it will help the 3 Ryzom groups (RC, RF and RT) to improve their communications and so their efficacy.

Log:
<nuts> Tamarea: ah , cause i could be interested by C++ dev on my free time also :P

<Kaetemi> thing is, even if we do spend our time to help someone on RC channel for days to get started on doing c++ work, they tend to give up or disappear anyway. New c++ devs really should get started doing things with the snowballs demo application first, before moving onto ryzom, because ryzom all at once is way too complicated but they dont have the patience :)
<SIELA1915> i think it's more exciting for new ones to see some stuff related to Ryzom itself and it's not that hard if you have an exact goal of what you search (that's how i started personally).
<nuts> Kaetemi: that's why you should have introdction task for new dev ... with little to do (even useless) to learn how the code is.
Tamarea: That's what is planned. And if Kaetemi wants to help, he is welcome. ;) If you look at the two C++ devs who remained there, you see that they're involved together in the Khaganat project. I think it's not by chance. Be a real part of a project which matters to you, while being able to interact with other peoples, it's more motivating than working solo. Ryzom matters to all of us here. Yes, we'll lose some devs on the road, but currently, because of the lack of structure and guide/lead, we're losing all of them.
<Kaetemi> i can help people who are patient enough. ;)

<Kaetemi> keep in mind a lot of the docs on the atlassian wiki are just 'private' notes by different people releated to their own projects, there is zero relation between the workflow of many of these wiki articles, so it's just difficult to bring them all together as a whole and 90% of it is wrong :)
<SIELA1915> that's exactly the problem :P well, let's make the new wiki with them brought together and only with correct ones. :)
<Kaetemi> we should clearly separate the NeL and Ryzom stuff though..

Petite question concernant l'ouverture de Silan :

Est-ce que les nouveaux pourront faire l'aller-retour entre Silan et les 4 capitales ?
Par exemple Silan -> Fairhaven -> Silan -> Yrkanis -> Silan -> Pyr -> Silan -> Zora...
Alors certes ça permettrai d'avoir un aperçu plus global du jeu mais ça tuerait un peu le challenge en ce qui concerne l'exploration...

Pour ma part je pense que le retour vers Silan devrait être limité jusqu'à un certain niveau (lvl 50 par exemple). Si les gros niveaux débarquent sur Silan, et qu'ils participent aux missions ça n'aura plus aucun sens car c'est trop facile pour eux.

Mais sinon je pense qu'en effet ça serait pas mal que les nouveaux puissent venir sur le continent pour jouer avec des anciens et voir du monde, et retourner sur Silan pour faire leurs missions solo. Peut-être ajouter une condition de finir les missions de Silan pour débloquer celles du continent, ainsi ils auraient une raison de retourner sur Silan.

+1 avec Kalean, il m'arrive pour ma part de croiser plus de monde sur silan que dans une capitale, mais limiter l'accès avec une "obligation" de terminer quand même les missions permettra non seulement aux nouveaux d'avoir l’aperçu global du jeu, mais aussi d’empêcher que les gros niveaux du continent viennent trop perturber la chose, parce que silan reste une communauté de départ et surtout d'apprentissage sur le travail d'équipe et un gros niveau qui fait le travail à la place n'apprend pas mieux à un nouveau qui demandera sans cesse son stuff aux autres.

Aussi, beaucoup de nouveaux joueurs français sont perdus à cause du multilingue, c'est aussi une raison pour qu'ils partent, les joueurs français ne sachant pas parler anglais, arrivent et voient la majorité des Silaniens s'exprimer en anglais, ils prennent peur et cherchent un autre MMO proposant alors des serveurs français.
aussi il y a déjà des anciens qui se chargent volontairement d'aider les arrivants sur Silan, voir de gros niveaux du continent serait comme voler un peu leurs efforts je pense, ça ne reste qu'un avis.


Il y aura surement beaucoup à revoir dans mes propos là dessus, mais une simple ouverture "silan - continent" n'aidera vraiment pas dans un certain sens.
Supprimer Silan reste une possibilité, mais malgré que Silan soit une zone tutoriel, il n’empêche pas moins que Ryzom qui se voulait RP de base, y perd tout ce côté si "les réfugiés du grand essaim" atterrissent aux capitales dès le début.
Je ne sais pas si mes idées sont comprises, mais pour ma part je pense que même si la chose devrait aider d'un côté, d'un autre cela peut démarrer une nouvelle perte si l'on n'y fait pas attention avant d'agir..

Quand l'on parle de "forcer" comme tu dis les joueurs à terminer ce qui fait office de tutoriel, il n'est pas là question de leur bloquer l'accès libre des capitales, simplement que s'ils ne terminent pas les quêtes de silan, ils n'auront pas accès aux quêtes supérieures si elles sont faites, du continent.
tu as mal interprétée je pense, Yubina.

Si l'on prend en compte la possibilité de rajouter sur le continent des quêtes faites pour assister d'une meilleure façon les nouveaux qui arrivent de silan, alors dans l'optique de les guider au mieux, il est nécessaire de les empêcher au moins d'esquiver le tutoriel.

Sur ryzom le tutoriel n'est pas étouffant, il s'agit de quêtes que l'on fait dans l'ordre que l'on veut, sans contrainte de temps.
Il faut en tirer partit pour apprendre aux nouveaux joueurs les bases et donc continuer sur le continent en passant à une phase "avancée" de ce tutoriel, sous forme certes, beaucoup plus libre afin d'aider et d'encourager l'exploration, de leur apprendre que désormais il faut faire un métier pour gagner au mieux les dappers.
Les quêtes de renommée ne suffisent pas à apprendre à un nouveaux joueur ne connaissant rien au jeu, tout ce que le continent peut lui apprendre.

Nous ne pouvons pas nous reposer toujours sur les plus anciens.
Il faut aussi que les nouveaux puissant apprendre en restant dans un cadre lucratif et autonome.

L'idée associée était d'ajouter des quêtes sur le continent afin justement d'apporter cette sorte de "second tutoriel" beaucoup plus libre.

ça ne reste que mon avis personnel.

En résumé :

- ajouter une continuité des quêtes sur le continent et empêcher les nouveaux d'y avoir accès (aux quêtes) s'ils n'ont pas terminés celles de base sur silan tout en leur laissant la liberté de les choisir ainsi que la liberté de déplacement.

Ils garderont donc le soutiens potentiel d'anciens joueurs tout en conservant la possibilité de continuer ou non les quêtes, l'idée était juste de continuer cela sur le continent.. j'espère être suffisamment clair dans mes idées .. ^^'

Yubina has a point about sandboxing and freedom.
But I fear that many new players skip the tutorial and go directly to the mainland, and then find it too hard and give up the game.

Maybe they should get better rewards from Silan, to push them to go back without making it mandatory.

On peut refaire l'historique des zones tuto du jeu aussi. Au départ, il y avait 4 zones tuto (1 par continent) et les joueurs choisissaient leur zone de départ au moment de la création du perso (et tu pouvais lire le descriptif des civilisations sur le site principal).

Après un moment, les zones sont devenues désertiques et la question a été posée : que faire ? La réponse a été Silan, une zone pot-pourri où tout le monde pouvait aller avant de choisir sur quel continent débarquer. Un des problèmes qui a été soulevé par Silan à l'époque, c'est que la zone ne reflétait pas vraiment ce qui était en jeu (limitations, missions, etc.).

Visiblement, aujourd'hui, c'est au tour de Silan d'être désertée.

De moi, on peut carrément fermer Silan et mettre des PNJ "professeurs" dans les capitales (pas besoin de mission). Ceux-ci rempliraient tout aussi bien le rôle de tuto, que les joueurs peuvent décider d'aller consulter ou non. Et après, chacun vit son aventure comme il l'entend.

D'ailleurs, démarrer directement en ville, c'est bien aussi, ça permettrait de pouvoir faire un background d'homin né dans les Nouvelles Terres (comme un personnage né à Yrkanis par ex.) (une "deuxième" génération). Au lieu de toujours démarrer comme réfugié sortant des primes racines (ce qui marchait bien au lancement de SoR). (C'est surtout pour les joueurs qui écrivent l'histoire de leur perso en fonction de ce qu'il vit en jeu).

IMHO I love Silan just the way it is....

But (got to have a but) when Steam first started with all that influx of new people, the Mainland players never really got to interact with them.

I was standing by Chiang watching the players pop in. Wow it was amazing... Silan was full. I wonder if those same players had hit the Mainland how many would be left.

- un problème à relever est aussi la débilité de certains joueurs, souvent trop habitués aux MMORPG paresseux modernes où cliquer sur la map ou la quête déplace automatiquement le personnage dessus. Ils ne lisent plus les messages apparaissant à l'écran et ne feront que taper tout ce qui bouge. Des vidéos de test de ryzom depuis son arrivé sur Steam le démontre.
Les joueurs ne réfléchissent pas forcément à si un pnj peut apprendre quelque chose ou s'il s'agit d'une créature à tuer pour s'amuser dans le style américain.
Les MMORPG tel Guild Wars 2 proposent des cinématiques avec un dialogue qui bloque l'action du joueur, et dans Aion, une fenetre d'aide expliquée étapes par étapes assistée d'une voix explique au joueurs l'importance de certaines actions ou possibilités.
Je ne dit pas à Ryzom de copier ailleurs, je dis simplement qu'il faut penser par rapport aux nouveaux joueurs..

- Dans ce cas l'on revient au même problème, si les joueurs "skip" le tutoriel de silan et qu'ils peuvent faire la même sur le continent, ça revient au même.

- Les arrivants sur silan peuvent aussi bien partir directement sur le continent pour ce genre de background, car ce dernier n'est pas forcément représenté par le lieu dans lequel on arrive.



Personnellement je pense que Silan est Sous exploité et que l'on cherche à l'éliminer sans l'avoir étudiée au mieux.
Ajouter des quètes, modifier l'interface (ajout de messages moins longs, dynamiques) afin de mieux guider les nouveaux joueurs sans trop les laisser s'éparpiller leur permétra de mieux saisir ce qu'est Ryzom, et de ne pas se limiter à "je vois un "truc", je le tape, j'ai terminé de tester le jeu."