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#31 Added by Shangfan 8 years ago [en] 

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Rikutatis
@Daomei: I agree there's certain players that go off the beaten track to make grinding a more challenging activity for them. Amazons Mysticia for exampe does that a lot. All I'm saying is that most people don't do that, but still think Ryzom is a more difficult game because it has a long and arduous grind.
Well, those who chose boredom have lost the right to complain about. And no, the grind is not long and arduous unless you choose to master lots of skills.

For the game proper, that is completely unnecessary. nearly all standard melee combat tasks can be done with 3 weapons, namely 1h sword, 2h axe (or sword, up to you), and pike. All the rest may play a role e.g. in PvP, but is not necessary. And there is no need to level them all up to master at a time. Mostly. even a master is not really a must.

In magic, off ele and heal are important, where heal is already useful and powerful from lvl 125 on, and healers are always in demand. And ele is easy to train.

So let us do some math. How hard is it for a solo player to reach lvl 50 from lvl 25, then going on?

Assuming she takes only on opponents 20lvls and more above her level, yielding 6k xp each, it is 58 kills (avg and mean kill rate per level is 3). A solo player, sitting down and using self heal, may still kill 10-20 mobs per hour. When fighting in a team, e.g. with a healer, xp will drop to 2/3, but kills per hour will rise to 50-100. I still recall how some kind players (thanks Tomstato ;)) took me as a healer at level 24, healing in Dyron and FF, and I became lvl 78 in an afternoon.

Between lvl 50 and lvl 100, it is already somewhat more, kill rate per level rises from 4 to 8, and it needs 338 kills for a solo player to achieve lvl 100. To get to lvl 150 from lvl 100, it needs 542 kills (from 8 to 15 kills ph), and from 150 to 200, it will be 931 kills (from 15 to 22). Between 1 and 3 lvls per hour are still possible.

Just for completeness: To reach the master level, it takes other 1315 kills at 6k xp, which is not possible, as xp drops to 2000 per opponent once one kills mobs of the own level. Moreover, at those levels, healers and teams are very recommended.

What I wanted to show: it is in no way hard or cruel grind to reach level 200 in any combat skill. If concentrating on, it can be done in a week or two of casual play. On the toplevels, more cooperation is recommended, and, btw. is more fun too.

Assuming you are playing in team all time, have an average yield of 4k xp/mob, and a fairly low kill rate of 60 mobs per hour (kincher and najab teams will rofl about, they do up to 3 kills per minute), it takes 45hrs to ascend from lvl 50 to 200, and 78hrs from 50-250. I fail to see that an exaggerated effort. (btw. I took a low kill rate to take in account the time to gather a team and hold it together)

[quote]I just think that's a very artificial difficulty. It doesn't challenge you as a player, it just forces you to spin that hamster's wheel longer and harder. [quote]
In Ryzom, the route is the goal. I had much fun during level training, and somewhat regret that the times are over when I could do training with newcomers, showing them spots and tricks. And I still like plod teams and sometimes heal off team (granted I want my share of skins and eyes, then :) )


I would be totally fine with a game in which you could reach level cap fast but then have difficult, challenging and deep end game activities that require tactics and coordination.
Ryzom is not such kind of game, and won't be. Btw, I do not consider 2 weeks til master a hamster wheel. Those of us who are achievement addicts clearly have to grind, and those who do have fun. Those who don't may achieve the necessary minimum of masters, or even high levels without masters, and engage in other activities like roleplay, explorations, harvesting, or PvP. They cannot request to get a Spirit of War title within a few days.

Well I know Eve, and do not like it due to being forced to PvP. But just a matter of taste. And leveling in digging ist also widely passive, you have to dig for range fight (and will have maxed ammo crafting before auto/launcher fighting). Other crafts will come when doing dapper missions, or occupations. There is a lot of passive leveling in Ryzom.

#32 Added by Eikn 8 years ago [en] 

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Even though your calculations are extremely favoring your point of view, they clearly show that a normal player would be forced to grind for one whole month at 2 hours a day in order to get one master. That is two hours of doing nothing but constantly grinding monsters that are not even hard to kill.
What about occupations? What about PvP? What about guild life? What about fame? What about crafting and harvesting?
I can't farm two hours every day just to enjoy the game like the others do. I can't farm two hours a day for half a year without doing nothing else just to wield 3 different weapons, heal and deal some damage.

The point is not if it is possible, the point is that it is neither challenging nor fun. It is just extremely repetetive. And who is gonna craft all the stuff I am using? Who is gonna harvest all the mats if I don't have time for it?
You can't say this is in any way justified or purposeful. I don't want to grind one weapon to master and stick to it for eternity because leveling is just too boring. I want to be free to do whatever I want to do without needing to grind for more than one month just to use the weapon on a level the community expects me to. What happens if I notice I don't like 2-hand weapons? Should I be punished by having to level 1h sword + dagger? (Which are two masters by the way!) Giving me the opportunity to get more experience simply makes the choice to level another weapon easier. The other option would be to leave the game, because the grinds are in no way justified. Which is exactly what many many people do. I want to change that.

#33 Added by Gidget 8 years ago Multilingual 

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I'm not 100% sure what the rush to multi-master is. Also, given the difficulty hitting much more than 20 levels above you, I think that any XP bonus from raising the cap would be more than countered by the huge increase in TTK and subsequent plummet in XP/hr. Sure, it might be nice to give bigger rewards for tougher targets, but such targets are so bad for levelling that they are usually done more for fun and/or mats than for XP anyways, making it moot.
Shangfan
For the game proper, that is completely unnecessary. nearly all standard melee combat tasks can be done with 3 weapons, namely 1h sword, 2h axe (or sword, up to you), and pike. All the rest may play a role e.g. in PvP, but is not necessary. And there is no need to level them all up to master at a time. Mostly. even a master is not really a must.

IMO, even that is a bit much. The first Fight mastery helps in many, many ways, but after that you really hit the point of diminishing returns. Unless you are so into PvP that you lose sleep sweating whether or not an additional -2 to Adversary Dodge is worth a 1.4% reduction in DPS, I'd say one weapon mastery is enough for most homins. The only exceptions are people who do a lot of "arena style" PvP. But if you are just doing PvE, OP battles and bodyguarding SN diggers, just one will do.
Shangfan
In Ryzom, the route is the goal. I had much fun during level training, and somewhat regret that the times are over when I could do training with newcomers, showing them spots and tricks. And I still like plod teams and sometimes heal off team (granted I want my share of skins and eyes, then :) )

Oh, I still show them the spots and tricks. I just usually don't take an active part in combat when teamed since pretty much anything I do would nerf hard. I know quite a few people who don't even really much care about levelling much either since they can already do what they want to do.... and not all of them are old-timers with a long list of Masters.

IMO, levelling is merely a means to an end. 
Shangfan
There is a lot of passive leveling in Ryzom.

Very true. I never really set out to get high levels of 2h Sword crafting or HA Vest crafting, but my pursuit of dappers from Overseer missions gave me both. And I never put any real effort into Heal either, yet the mere act of supporting teammates got me into the 240s.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#34 Added by Rikutatis 8 years ago [en] 

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Shangfan
Ryzom is not such kind of game, and won't be. Btw, I do not consider 2 weeks til master a hamster wheel. Those of us who are achievement addicts clearly have to grind, and those who do have fun. Those who don't may achieve the necessary minimum of masters, or even high levels without masters, and engage in other activities like roleplay, explorations, harvesting, or PvP. They cannot request to get a Spirit of War title within a few days.

I hear people saying a lot that Ryzom doesn't have an end game and it's all about the journey. While that's partially true, any MMO, no matter how theme park it is, can be played that way. But Ryzom does have an end game. A very clear one. Digging supreme q250 mats, scouting and killing q270 bosses, going on NPC boss "raids" for mara armor, PVP in supernodes and OP wars. All of those are end game activities. It's what people do when they master what they wanted to master. And while you can participate in those with a lower level toon, you'll be pretty much useless and more often than not a hindrance to your team (a heal 150ish can be helpful in some of those, but still nothing decisive).

The truth is that people join an established guild, and all their guildies are getting calls for boss hunts in high level zones, going on OP wars, etc. And new players feel like they need to get at least a couple masters to be able to keep up with the guild. But after they get 1 or 2, they realize they need at least a few more.

A PVE'er who just wants to do the basics needs 250 in ele, 1 melee, a 200+ heal (250 if he wants to do Pei-Ruz though), and at least one 250 in forage (but preferably one in PR as well if he wants supreme gear). That's 4-5 masters.

If you actually want to craft, add more to that. If you want to craft armor or jewelry, good luck with the grind. =P

If you want to compete in high level PVP and be really well rounded and ready for any situation, that's closer to 13 masters.

Sure, there are games more grindy than Ryzom and that's the nature of MMOs. But sorry, the above is very grindy to me. I have seen several people quit Ryzom throughout the years because they couldn't take the grind, and the community here just dismisses the issue as players who want easy mode.

And what you describe is not passive training. In EVE you choose a skill, put it on the queue, and it will train automatically, even if you're logged off. You don't have to do anything else. You're free to do other stuff in the game you enjoy. Mining, crafting, pvp, RP, exploration, whatever you want. There's no mandatory skill/level grind before you can access certain content in the game. I'm not an EVE player, FYI. Just tried it out some time ago. But it's a good game design and I wish more MMO's did that.

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#35 Added by Daomei 8 years ago [en] 

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Rikutatis
I hear people saying a lot that Ryzom doesn't have an end game and it's all about the journey. While that's partially true, any MMO, no matter how theme park it is, can be played that way. But Ryzom does have an end game. A very clear one. Digging supreme q250 mats, scouting and killing q270 bosses, going on NPC boss "raids" for mara armor, PVP in supernodes and OP wars. All of those are end game activities. It's what people do when they master what they wanted to master. And while you can participate in those with a lower level toon, you'll be pretty much useless and more often than not a hindrance to your team (a heal 150ish can be helpful in some of those, but still nothing decisive).

I strongly disagree here. Let us have a look at the "end game content":
- sup mat digging
Supreme mat does not start at q250 but at q150. When crafting for levels below 225/240, those materials are exactly as valuable as those of q250. And a CPer is of much help even at lvl 125 when digging q250 mats. For sub-q250 even CPers below that are not bad, and diggers between 140 and 190 may dig q150-200 mat not so much worse than a master (somewhat worse ofc, granted).
- boss scouting and hunting
Not only q270 bosses matter, for some purposes like PvP jewels and Eroukan armor, some q220 bosses are equally or even more important. For other boss mat below q250/200, same goes as mentioned above. And while scouting can be best done by somebody with max hp, that is not absolutely necessary. 225 in anything suffices for max dodge hp boosted by max adv dodge daggers of which the level is not that important (ok bit more hp for q250 ones). And aside from intentional scouting, attentive players alerting their friends and guildies are useful and make a difference, no matter what level.
During boss hunts, younger players or f2p often have an important role as backhealers. I recall that Triplex once asked me to assist him with Shooketh, when my heal level was fairly below 175. I just followed orders and rezed and healed as told. Was a great adventure and demonstrates that even lower level players, even when bit clumsy like me, are not excluded from "end game content" because they are not masters.
- NPC boss hunts
In the open round, even players below level 100 have been accepted, mainly as backhealers, and have proven useful. Beneath that, the participation in a multiteam fighting event is an interesting experience, and much of a challenge for the leader of the event. Participation of lower level players is an important element of inclusion of players of all levels. It does not need any master to do a significant contribution.
- PvP in supernodes and OP wars
Here again, players of every level are accepted. Granted that the lower levels are serving as backhealers and CPers in the further and mainly backhealers/healers, and beside that as cannonfodder in the latter, they are welcome and useful. Again, no "endgame content".

Pei-Ruz is possibly the only one where masters in ele and melee (2h axe or sword) are required or at least a decisive advantage, so are healing capabilities best not below lvl220, celestial guardian a nice to have. It is absolutely possible to do Dante without a master in team, and not hard with only a few masters.
The truth is that people join an established guild, and all their guildies are getting calls for boss hunts in high level zones, going on OP wars, etc. And new players feel like they need to get at least a couple masters to be able to keep up with the guild. But after they get 1 or 2, they realize they need at least a few more.

In an established guild in particular, young players should be integrated, not made feeling inferior because they have not mastered skills. I recall a highly respected player in KoD, having been f2p for years before subscribing, and having played a crucial role though, organizing guild and player events, participating in PvP, SN, OP wars, boss hunts, boss scouting, PR digging, everything. He was respected as a highly skilled and valuable player. A guild failing its duty to respect younger players misses the point of the game.
A PVE'er who just wants to do the basics needs 250 in ele, 1 melee, a 200+ heal (250 if he wants to do Pei-Ruz though), and at least one 250 in forage (but preferably one in PR as well if he wants supreme gear). That's 4-5 masters.

My apologies, but that is rubbish. Masters are handy, but no need. I played the game nearly a year at very high intensity before mastering my first skill (granted, the reason was that I developped very much in parallel at a time). I cannot say that I missed much. Even after reaching lvl250 I always felt that I had still lots to learn, and most of it could be learned without a master, some even better when your level was not so high.

Of course, masters are an advantage. As Gidget correctly stated, the return of mastering highly diminishes with the skills already mastered. In digging, you need one master, then reach lvl240, lean back and let it happen. In crafting it is much the same. Only those addicted to achievements (like me) will try to obtain master levels no matter whether useful or not.
If you actually want to craft, add more to that. If you want to craft armor or jewelry, good luck with the grind. =P
If you want to craft, you have to train it. Otherwise you always may dig up the mats and ask a crafter, there are a lot around. And they did not get their skills without effort.

As to the difference between Eve and Ryzom, I am not sure that I were happy to have a skill trained automatically by time elapsed even if logged out. I do not say that such does not work, but I prefer our system which encourages own effort, teaming up, choice of weapon and gear, creates interdependencies and leaves the choice to do it the safer way or pick challenges.

To PvP I decline to comment, as I do not practise PvP. If your fellow PvPer set such standards for competition, which looksto me like an arms race with poor respect of dexterity, it is up to you and your fellow players. If you are content, no problem. But complaints that the "required" master levels are not given for free is beyond my understanding.

Last edited by Daomei (8 years ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#36 Added by Daomei 8 years ago [en] 

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Eikn
Even though your calculations are extremely favoring your point of view, they clearly show that a normal player would be forced to grind for one whole month at 2 hours a day in order to get one master.
True except the unfounded accusation that the models were biased, they were conservative estimates to my impression. And I would dissuade anybody to grind 2hrs a day only "to get a master" unless having abundance of time to spend every day. Doing so means you have not understood the game.

Having reached a level, be it 50, 100, 150, 200, above or inbetween, empowers you to do a lot of things in Ryzom, such as fighting, healing, exploring, harvesting, and so on. You will not have understood a hundredth of the intricacies and mechanics of the game when reaching medium (100, 150+) or high levels (200+) or even "master". A player using her first month on mainland not to grind to "master" at any cost, but thoroughly exploring, learning about seasons, weather, mob behaviour and movements and general survival will definitely be the better player at the end of that month, even if she has no level above 100.
That is two hours of doing nothing but constantly grinding monsters that are not even hard to kill.
As a sidenote: Ryzom animals are not "monsters". Their behavioral patterns, especially of herbivores and carnivores are modeled after behavioral biology, and they differ from species to species. It is worth while much more to familiarize with their behavior than rushing to as high fight/magic levels as possible.

All "not hard to kill" targets are just an offer one may follow or not. If taking the ease of attacking "easy" mobs it is wierd to complain that they pose no threat. There are enough dangerous targets to pick, and I can confirm that they are more fun.
What about occupations? What about PvP? What about guild life? What about fame? What about crafting and harvesting?
I can't farm two hours every day just to enjoy the game like the others do. I can't farm two hours a day for half a year without doing nothing else just to wield 3 different weapons, heal and deal some damage.
The point is not if it is possible, the point is that it is neither challenging nor fun. It is just extremely repetetive. And who is gonna craft all the stuff I am using? Who is gonna harvest all the mats if I don't have time for it?

There are lots of players ingame who had no qualms to undergo the efforts of training. Most will be willing to craft the stuff you cannot craft yourself. Mind that this is a multiuser game.

When leveling digging and crafting is no challenge to you drop it and rely on guildies and other helpful players, there are lots around.
And most of them found purpose and satisfaction in training those skills they are practising.

The game is designed so that one cannot do everything on one's own from the beginning (it is possible, but is a long way reserved to those ready to take the pain) . But if you want to have the skill to use a weapon you will have to train it.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#37 Added by Eikn 8 years ago [en] 

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Daomei
A player using her first month on mainland not to grind to "master" at any cost, but thoroughly exploring, learning about seasons, weather, mob behaviour and movements and general survival will definitely be the better player at the end of that month, even if she has no level above 100.

As a sidenote: Ryzom animals are not "monsters". Their behavioral patterns, especially of herbivores and carnivores are modeled after behavioral biology, and they differ from species to species. It is worth while much more to familiarize with their behavior than rushing to as high fight/magic levels as possible.

You act like there is some higher science involved here. Those are just plants. Some mobs are social, some mobs eat plants, some mobs eat other mobs. So what, nothing really special here.
Same goes for seasons and weather: There is not much to it except: Does it rain? Yes. Can I dig this stuff now? No. Is it winter? Yes. Can I find those mobs at the same place as before? No.

Don't get me wrong. I love those features, but this is nothing... let's say overwhelmingly thought through and unique. Those are just behavior patterns that you can find in every game.

Many people in here justify the status quo with arguments like: "There are other people that already did this." or "The game is not designed to be that way."
Well I see those points... and they are true, but just because things have been that way for a long time it does not mean that this is good in any way. Just because there have been people that grinded this game for years it doesn't mean that this is good in any way to new players. What I am saying is: You can't pretend like everything is alright in this game when this is one of the least populated games. This game is so great, it has so many great features, why scare people away from this game with mechanics that were flawed in 2004. And they still are. The leveling in this game is a big problem, but it does not have to be that way - just because it has been like this for 12 years. We can change things for the better. We just have to accept that our glorified game is not perfect in every aspect as we believe it to be.

#38 Added by Daomei 8 years ago [en] 

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Ignorance is no sin, if it is recognized and compensated by curiosity and readiness to learn. Combined with arrogance, it is turning ugly.

Tell me:
- Why are wildlife mektoubs not attacked by carnivores, usually?
- Under which circumstances they will be attacked, anyway?
- Do carnivores attack herbivores all times?
- If not, when and why they will do?
- Do herbivores attack intelligent plants?
- How do herds react on season change?
- is carnivore occurence equal during all seasons everywhere?
- Do herbies react on approaching homins, and if yes, are there region specific behavioral patterns?

I do not mind if you do not know the answers, but your tone is somewhat annoying, to be honest. I am playing this game for nearly 6 years, and do not claim to have explored everything about.

And well, tell me another game where I could claim similar - not to have "played through" in half a year or so (ok possibly with help of some gold traders for cash).

If your only concern is that you cannot achieve a master in less than a month at a rate of 2hrs playtime a day I simply fail to see your point.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#39 Added by Rikutatis 8 years ago [en] 

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@Daomei: I admit it was a gross exaggeration from my part to imply the exact skill level "250" is needed for those activities. Instead I should have said a high level that is close enough to 250 for the math to work in your favor. Your mileage may vary, but 225+ would be a good base (with the exception of competitive pvp and Pei-Ruz, you do need 250 for those).

But to me you saying things like players with less than level 100 going on an NPC boss hunt (just to pick one example so this reply doesn't get too long) and being useful means we have very different understandings of the word "useful" in this context. Maybe I should have made myself clearer. In the open public hunts the players go in with a massive number advantage. It's an over kill. An activity that was designed for a guild to tackle is being done by the entire server. Try to do Aen with 14-15 toons and see if that lvl 100 will be as helpful.
Eikn
We just have to accept that our glorified game is not perfect in every aspect as we believe it to be.

I've been playing this game on and off for almost 8 years and I feel the same sometimes as well. I'm not saying your original OP suggestion is the best way to go about it, but I see nothing wrong with the idea of minimizing the grind and making XP faster in principle. As long as there's enough fun stuff going on in the game to keep players interested and using those skills.

Most of the disagreements I see against your suggestion seem to be either:

1) Making XP faster is against the difficult, challenging nature of Ryzom. That's what I've been trying to rebuke with my posts. Or;

2) If XP is faster, players will finish all skills too quick and won't have a purpose in playing anymore. That's also a bad excuse to me, and that's why I cited EVE as an example of a highly successful game (the most successful sandbox at that) that doesn't require you to grind skills in order to keep you logged on playing. The idea that MMO's should be about grinding skills and levels is a very antiquated one.

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#40 Added by Mjollren 8 years ago [en] 

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@Daomei:

You would have a point with your questions if the answers would be game-changing for a significant amount of players. As it happens, the ugly truth is that very few people out of a group would actually care to learn the answers. You can play in most situations just by knowing which class attacks which (carnivores > herbivores).

Instead, what people DO notice is how fast you level, how fast you can gain access to content, how boring or interesting content is, and so on. No, a nature documentary isn't interesting for a lot of people.

For a completely personal example, I never got into GW2 due to two reasons: one is that I dislike the endless quests at the start, and even if I could get over that, the XP gain is pretty slow. The person I'm watching play has been putting in maybe 1 hour daily, and three months later they're still 52 out of 80. Granted, that's the only skill to level, instead of 63 trees, but consider what the average player's expectation is.

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#41 Added by Eikn 8 years ago [en] 

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Daomei: I am sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. I did not intent to hurt you.
Mjollren: Again, I agree with you. Thanks for drawing the attention back to the actual topic.

#42 Added by Gidget 8 years ago [en] 

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Daomei
And I would dissuade anybody to grind 2hrs a day only "to get a master" unless having abundance of time to spend every day. Doing so means you have not understood the game.

Having reached a level, be it 50, 100, 150, 200, above or inbetween, empowers you to do a lot of things in Ryzom, such as fighting, healing, exploring, harvesting, and so on. You will not have understood a hundredth of the intricacies and mechanics of the game when reaching medium (100, 150+) or high levels (200+) or even "master". A player using her first month on mainland not to grind to "master" at any cost, but thoroughly exploring, learning about seasons, weather, mob behaviour and movements and general survival will definitely be the better player at the end of that month, even if she has no level above 100.

And in some cases, you may be able to pull of things that most people would think only possible through the sheer brute force of power-levelling. For instance, tanking for a plod team with Daggers and a CC skill of only ~120 is easily doable with some player skill. Admittedly, dagger is not the best choice for plods due to the DPS, but so long as you remember that a tank's job is more about keeping the casters from being eaten than about dealing damage, and you have enough healing support to even have a plod team in the first place, even F2P players can be very useful in 250 zones.
Daomei
There are lots of players ingame who had no qualms to undergo the efforts of training. Most will be willing to craft the stuff you cannot craft yourself. Mind that this is a multiuser game.

When leveling digging and crafting is no challenge to you drop it and rely on guildies and other helpful players, there are lots around.
And most of them found purpose and satisfaction in training those skills they are practising.

The game is designed so that one cannot do everything on one's own from the beginning (it is possible, but is a long way reserved to those ready to take the pain).

I think that that right there is where the problem is. It seems that many of the players who have issues with Ryzom play almost like it's a single-player game with a chatroom. Or maybe it's just pride that makes everyone feel they NEED to be 150% self-sufficient, if not the Ultimate Uber-Master of All Things.

Do you know why I am only half-heartedly levelling craft? It's because most of the stuff I use can be crafted by guildmates, and whatever they can't craft, I have friends outside of Rift Walkers who can. That means I don't have to do anything; I do what I want. Some would say that I "should" be mastering a dig other than Lakes, but I'm in no rush to do so because anything I can't get myself can be obtained just as easily with interpersonal skills as with character levels.

Yes, the last couple of weeks I have been doing a lot of digging, but it's by choice. I've done quite a few other things recently as well, like occupations, treks, hunts, SNs, an OP battle, giving the Kirostas in Loria a campfire so they don't freeze at night... things that are not grinding! I do not feel bound to grind away single-mindedly until I hit 250; I do a few levels here and there whenever I feel like it.

Zooming out a bit, I think that this discussion has done a great job at highlighting the difference between the old-timers who are used to getting a level every few weekends and those whose RPG experience is mostly computer/console-based. How many of you old table-top RPG players ever got to "endgame content" at all? And those of you who did, how many did it in under 20 hours of playtime? I think @Rikutatis is a great example of that difference because of this line;

Rikutatis
The idea that MMO's should be about grinding skills and levels is a very antiquated one.


Round wheels are an antiquated concept as well. But how is it that you personally have ever improved anyways? I mean, I know what I know about many things through study and experience. I didn't just say, "I want to learn electrical engineering!", wait a few hours, and suddenly have the differences between Delta and Wye transformers pop into my head; I had to do some studying and put in a bit of time and effort.

Some of us gamers consider that sort of "effort leads to improvement" thing to be more immersive than just having competence based on how long since you clicked a button that said, "I want to learn ****". It's the fact that many other gamers agree that the model even still exists. (Well, also the fact that it's easier to monetize, but lets keep the business side out of it.)  And given the heavy pay2win aspect of EVE, I think it safe to say that much of what works there would not work here anyways.

Then again, I treat my RPG characters (MMO or otherwise) as psuedo-real people in an alternate world rather than as some omnipotent being. I think MMORPGs are different from single-player games like Deus Ex and thus don't feel that I need a set storyline that I follow on rails and reach maximum character development by the time I'm 10-15 hours in. So of course I have far different expectations from those whose idea of MMORPGs is closer to "Counterstrike with crafting".

In any event, it's simply impossible to please everyone. The XP cap apparently was higher at some point in the distant past and was lowered to 6k for reasons. I'm not sure what those reasons were, but given how many homins have done well despite that cap and the difficulty of taking out things >20 levels above me without having enough teammates to nerf XP anyways, I'm not convinced that there is really any need to raise the cap either.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#43 Added by Yenno 8 years ago [en] 

{translate}
I am not into these type of discussions and to be honest I haven't even read the the topic but @Daomei's questions attracted me so I'll try to answer and hopefully you correct me :)

- Why are wildlife mektoubs not attacked by carnivores, usually?
Because they're too quick (speedy)
- Under which circumstances they will be attacked, anyway?
If they get rooted or somehow slowed down.
- Do carnivores attack herbivores all times?
Based on the exemple above, no.
- If not, when and why they will do?
They'll if they over speed them.
- Do herbivores attack intelligent plants? 
No.
- How do herds react on season change?
They move from a spot to another, no idea how (explain, please:)
- is carnivore occurence equal during all seasons everywhere?
No (explain why, please:)
- Do herbies react on approaching homins, and if yes, are there region specific behavioral patterns? 
They do. Behavioral patterns.
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