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IDEAS FOR RYZOM
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#36 Added by Daomei 8 years ago [en] 

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Eikn
Even though your calculations are extremely favoring your point of view, they clearly show that a normal player would be forced to grind for one whole month at 2 hours a day in order to get one master.
True except the unfounded accusation that the models were biased, they were conservative estimates to my impression. And I would dissuade anybody to grind 2hrs a day only "to get a master" unless having abundance of time to spend every day. Doing so means you have not understood the game.

Having reached a level, be it 50, 100, 150, 200, above or inbetween, empowers you to do a lot of things in Ryzom, such as fighting, healing, exploring, harvesting, and so on. You will not have understood a hundredth of the intricacies and mechanics of the game when reaching medium (100, 150+) or high levels (200+) or even "master". A player using her first month on mainland not to grind to "master" at any cost, but thoroughly exploring, learning about seasons, weather, mob behaviour and movements and general survival will definitely be the better player at the end of that month, even if she has no level above 100.
That is two hours of doing nothing but constantly grinding monsters that are not even hard to kill.
As a sidenote: Ryzom animals are not "monsters". Their behavioral patterns, especially of herbivores and carnivores are modeled after behavioral biology, and they differ from species to species. It is worth while much more to familiarize with their behavior than rushing to as high fight/magic levels as possible.

All "not hard to kill" targets are just an offer one may follow or not. If taking the ease of attacking "easy" mobs it is wierd to complain that they pose no threat. There are enough dangerous targets to pick, and I can confirm that they are more fun.
What about occupations? What about PvP? What about guild life? What about fame? What about crafting and harvesting?
I can't farm two hours every day just to enjoy the game like the others do. I can't farm two hours a day for half a year without doing nothing else just to wield 3 different weapons, heal and deal some damage.
The point is not if it is possible, the point is that it is neither challenging nor fun. It is just extremely repetetive. And who is gonna craft all the stuff I am using? Who is gonna harvest all the mats if I don't have time for it?

There are lots of players ingame who had no qualms to undergo the efforts of training. Most will be willing to craft the stuff you cannot craft yourself. Mind that this is a multiuser game.

When leveling digging and crafting is no challenge to you drop it and rely on guildies and other helpful players, there are lots around.
And most of them found purpose and satisfaction in training those skills they are practising.

The game is designed so that one cannot do everything on one's own from the beginning (it is possible, but is a long way reserved to those ready to take the pain) . But if you want to have the skill to use a weapon you will have to train it.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#37 Added by Eikn 8 years ago [en] 

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Daomei
A player using her first month on mainland not to grind to "master" at any cost, but thoroughly exploring, learning about seasons, weather, mob behaviour and movements and general survival will definitely be the better player at the end of that month, even if she has no level above 100.

As a sidenote: Ryzom animals are not "monsters". Their behavioral patterns, especially of herbivores and carnivores are modeled after behavioral biology, and they differ from species to species. It is worth while much more to familiarize with their behavior than rushing to as high fight/magic levels as possible.

You act like there is some higher science involved here. Those are just plants. Some mobs are social, some mobs eat plants, some mobs eat other mobs. So what, nothing really special here.
Same goes for seasons and weather: There is not much to it except: Does it rain? Yes. Can I dig this stuff now? No. Is it winter? Yes. Can I find those mobs at the same place as before? No.

Don't get me wrong. I love those features, but this is nothing... let's say overwhelmingly thought through and unique. Those are just behavior patterns that you can find in every game.

Many people in here justify the status quo with arguments like: "There are other people that already did this." or "The game is not designed to be that way."
Well I see those points... and they are true, but just because things have been that way for a long time it does not mean that this is good in any way. Just because there have been people that grinded this game for years it doesn't mean that this is good in any way to new players. What I am saying is: You can't pretend like everything is alright in this game when this is one of the least populated games. This game is so great, it has so many great features, why scare people away from this game with mechanics that were flawed in 2004. And they still are. The leveling in this game is a big problem, but it does not have to be that way - just because it has been like this for 12 years. We can change things for the better. We just have to accept that our glorified game is not perfect in every aspect as we believe it to be.

#38 Added by Daomei 8 years ago [en] 

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Ignorance is no sin, if it is recognized and compensated by curiosity and readiness to learn. Combined with arrogance, it is turning ugly.

Tell me:
- Why are wildlife mektoubs not attacked by carnivores, usually?
- Under which circumstances they will be attacked, anyway?
- Do carnivores attack herbivores all times?
- If not, when and why they will do?
- Do herbivores attack intelligent plants?
- How do herds react on season change?
- is carnivore occurence equal during all seasons everywhere?
- Do herbies react on approaching homins, and if yes, are there region specific behavioral patterns?

I do not mind if you do not know the answers, but your tone is somewhat annoying, to be honest. I am playing this game for nearly 6 years, and do not claim to have explored everything about.

And well, tell me another game where I could claim similar - not to have "played through" in half a year or so (ok possibly with help of some gold traders for cash).

If your only concern is that you cannot achieve a master in less than a month at a rate of 2hrs playtime a day I simply fail to see your point.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#39 Added by Rikutatis 8 years ago [en] 

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@Daomei: I admit it was a gross exaggeration from my part to imply the exact skill level "250" is needed for those activities. Instead I should have said a high level that is close enough to 250 for the math to work in your favor. Your mileage may vary, but 225+ would be a good base (with the exception of competitive pvp and Pei-Ruz, you do need 250 for those).

But to me you saying things like players with less than level 100 going on an NPC boss hunt (just to pick one example so this reply doesn't get too long) and being useful means we have very different understandings of the word "useful" in this context. Maybe I should have made myself clearer. In the open public hunts the players go in with a massive number advantage. It's an over kill. An activity that was designed for a guild to tackle is being done by the entire server. Try to do Aen with 14-15 toons and see if that lvl 100 will be as helpful.
Eikn
We just have to accept that our glorified game is not perfect in every aspect as we believe it to be.

I've been playing this game on and off for almost 8 years and I feel the same sometimes as well. I'm not saying your original OP suggestion is the best way to go about it, but I see nothing wrong with the idea of minimizing the grind and making XP faster in principle. As long as there's enough fun stuff going on in the game to keep players interested and using those skills.

Most of the disagreements I see against your suggestion seem to be either:

1) Making XP faster is against the difficult, challenging nature of Ryzom. That's what I've been trying to rebuke with my posts. Or;

2) If XP is faster, players will finish all skills too quick and won't have a purpose in playing anymore. That's also a bad excuse to me, and that's why I cited EVE as an example of a highly successful game (the most successful sandbox at that) that doesn't require you to grind skills in order to keep you logged on playing. The idea that MMO's should be about grinding skills and levels is a very antiquated one.

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#40 Added by Mjollren 8 years ago [en] 

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@Daomei:

You would have a point with your questions if the answers would be game-changing for a significant amount of players. As it happens, the ugly truth is that very few people out of a group would actually care to learn the answers. You can play in most situations just by knowing which class attacks which (carnivores > herbivores).

Instead, what people DO notice is how fast you level, how fast you can gain access to content, how boring or interesting content is, and so on. No, a nature documentary isn't interesting for a lot of people.

For a completely personal example, I never got into GW2 due to two reasons: one is that I dislike the endless quests at the start, and even if I could get over that, the XP gain is pretty slow. The person I'm watching play has been putting in maybe 1 hour daily, and three months later they're still 52 out of 80. Granted, that's the only skill to level, instead of 63 trees, but consider what the average player's expectation is.

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#41 Added by Eikn 8 years ago [en] 

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Daomei: I am sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. I did not intent to hurt you.
Mjollren: Again, I agree with you. Thanks for drawing the attention back to the actual topic.

#42 Added by Gidget 8 years ago [en] 

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Daomei
And I would dissuade anybody to grind 2hrs a day only "to get a master" unless having abundance of time to spend every day. Doing so means you have not understood the game.

Having reached a level, be it 50, 100, 150, 200, above or inbetween, empowers you to do a lot of things in Ryzom, such as fighting, healing, exploring, harvesting, and so on. You will not have understood a hundredth of the intricacies and mechanics of the game when reaching medium (100, 150+) or high levels (200+) or even "master". A player using her first month on mainland not to grind to "master" at any cost, but thoroughly exploring, learning about seasons, weather, mob behaviour and movements and general survival will definitely be the better player at the end of that month, even if she has no level above 100.

And in some cases, you may be able to pull of things that most people would think only possible through the sheer brute force of power-levelling. For instance, tanking for a plod team with Daggers and a CC skill of only ~120 is easily doable with some player skill. Admittedly, dagger is not the best choice for plods due to the DPS, but so long as you remember that a tank's job is more about keeping the casters from being eaten than about dealing damage, and you have enough healing support to even have a plod team in the first place, even F2P players can be very useful in 250 zones.
Daomei
There are lots of players ingame who had no qualms to undergo the efforts of training. Most will be willing to craft the stuff you cannot craft yourself. Mind that this is a multiuser game.

When leveling digging and crafting is no challenge to you drop it and rely on guildies and other helpful players, there are lots around.
And most of them found purpose and satisfaction in training those skills they are practising.

The game is designed so that one cannot do everything on one's own from the beginning (it is possible, but is a long way reserved to those ready to take the pain).

I think that that right there is where the problem is. It seems that many of the players who have issues with Ryzom play almost like it's a single-player game with a chatroom. Or maybe it's just pride that makes everyone feel they NEED to be 150% self-sufficient, if not the Ultimate Uber-Master of All Things.

Do you know why I am only half-heartedly levelling craft? It's because most of the stuff I use can be crafted by guildmates, and whatever they can't craft, I have friends outside of Rift Walkers who can. That means I don't have to do anything; I do what I want. Some would say that I "should" be mastering a dig other than Lakes, but I'm in no rush to do so because anything I can't get myself can be obtained just as easily with interpersonal skills as with character levels.

Yes, the last couple of weeks I have been doing a lot of digging, but it's by choice. I've done quite a few other things recently as well, like occupations, treks, hunts, SNs, an OP battle, giving the Kirostas in Loria a campfire so they don't freeze at night... things that are not grinding! I do not feel bound to grind away single-mindedly until I hit 250; I do a few levels here and there whenever I feel like it.

Zooming out a bit, I think that this discussion has done a great job at highlighting the difference between the old-timers who are used to getting a level every few weekends and those whose RPG experience is mostly computer/console-based. How many of you old table-top RPG players ever got to "endgame content" at all? And those of you who did, how many did it in under 20 hours of playtime? I think @Rikutatis is a great example of that difference because of this line;

Rikutatis
The idea that MMO's should be about grinding skills and levels is a very antiquated one.


Round wheels are an antiquated concept as well. But how is it that you personally have ever improved anyways? I mean, I know what I know about many things through study and experience. I didn't just say, "I want to learn electrical engineering!", wait a few hours, and suddenly have the differences between Delta and Wye transformers pop into my head; I had to do some studying and put in a bit of time and effort.

Some of us gamers consider that sort of "effort leads to improvement" thing to be more immersive than just having competence based on how long since you clicked a button that said, "I want to learn ****". It's the fact that many other gamers agree that the model even still exists. (Well, also the fact that it's easier to monetize, but lets keep the business side out of it.)  And given the heavy pay2win aspect of EVE, I think it safe to say that much of what works there would not work here anyways.

Then again, I treat my RPG characters (MMO or otherwise) as psuedo-real people in an alternate world rather than as some omnipotent being. I think MMORPGs are different from single-player games like Deus Ex and thus don't feel that I need a set storyline that I follow on rails and reach maximum character development by the time I'm 10-15 hours in. So of course I have far different expectations from those whose idea of MMORPGs is closer to "Counterstrike with crafting".

In any event, it's simply impossible to please everyone. The XP cap apparently was higher at some point in the distant past and was lowered to 6k for reasons. I'm not sure what those reasons were, but given how many homins have done well despite that cap and the difficulty of taking out things >20 levels above me without having enough teammates to nerf XP anyways, I'm not convinced that there is really any need to raise the cap either.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#43 Added by Yenno 8 years ago [en] 

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I am not into these type of discussions and to be honest I haven't even read the the topic but @Daomei's questions attracted me so I'll try to answer and hopefully you correct me :)

- Why are wildlife mektoubs not attacked by carnivores, usually?
Because they're too quick (speedy)
- Under which circumstances they will be attacked, anyway?
If they get rooted or somehow slowed down.
- Do carnivores attack herbivores all times?
Based on the exemple above, no.
- If not, when and why they will do?
They'll if they over speed them.
- Do herbivores attack intelligent plants? 
No.
- How do herds react on season change?
They move from a spot to another, no idea how (explain, please:)
- is carnivore occurence equal during all seasons everywhere?
No (explain why, please:)
- Do herbies react on approaching homins, and if yes, are there region specific behavioral patterns? 
They do. Behavioral patterns.
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