IDEAS FOR RYZOM

I fail to understand why people think boring and repetitive grind is difficulty. It's not difficult, it's just repetitive and grindy.

Difficult is going to dig supreme mats solo in an area filled with vorax where KPs are patrolling nearby. Or killing jugukoo with only 2 homins. Those are challenges.

Spending countless hours killing cratchas all the way to 210 and after that pulling najabs one by one in a very safe and comfortable environment is not difficult. It's just boring and repetitive.

Exactly. It's not difficult. And even worse: once you've done it for the first time, the next time it will be even easier, giving the same amount of experience over and over again. After your first master you can fight monsters that give 6k from 20-200 with little to no effort. It's just not even rewarding at this point. You hit your melee stanza and return after 1 minute to get your 6k exp and start hitting the next Cratcha. If it would be profitable to TRY to kill higher monsters for more exp, there would be a new sense of reward. If it would be profitable to hunt Kinchers instead of Cratchas, I might try and feel challenged again. THIS is what I am talking about.

We have to make the game more fun in some aspects to keep the new players and also keep the old players. We have to give new players a chance to catch up to the old players to take part in every aspect of the game. And I also think that this change is actually quite urgent. We need it now, where we still profit from incoming Steam users and while the requests for restoring characters are high.

I would love to get a response from the Ryzom staff on that matter.

How difficult would implementation be? Does the Ryzom staff also think about the new players and recurring players?

Riku, it depends. It is up to the player to make level training boring or interesting. That is, btw., true to most ingame activities.

As to Jugukoo, I only managed to kill it with 3 homins (but 2 players). If you know what to do, it is more repetitive than hard after having pulled it to a tp - takes a lot of time as it is tenacious and has loads of hp - some eggs recommended, too. In a team of two, it indeed needs a lot of time, concentration, and skill, I am not sure whether I could manage it, even with a very good partner. But alas, what does that mean, if not that such an excellent player has a lot of routine, knowledge, and dexterity. And how to obtain that if not by patiently training and honing of your abilities, which of course is "repetitive and grindy".

When the server merge happened, I had "only" mastered 21 skills. Note that level training then had already been eased by introducing cats, and obtaining cats by introducing the sadly removed advanced occupations, later. I somewhat regret the introduction of permacats because it made it less necessary to interact.

From the design of the game, it was not intended to make acquisition of levels that easy. Instead, the idea was that players should usually have a few masters so that they had to cooperate in teams, guilds, alliances, and networks of friends. The alleviations of the level burden already highly eased soloplay, or playing with alts. This was, to some extent, a necessity. But further easing might prove destructive.

I have seen games going downhill because the management, driven by the wish to acquire new subscribers, pressed to "make things easier". That was particularly the case in GW1 where I witnessed it myself, but reportedly by friends who played it, in WoW as well. Such easing drove out loads of experienced players, when their frustration and boredom could not at least be compensated by extensions of the games or even a successor game Project, an option which is not available for Ryzom nor is it - at least the latter - desirable.

Unless one is willing to spend tons of hours of training one should accept that mastering of skills is not for free. The option either to do it with low risk at frequently crowded level spots, or seek more risky and entertaining methods, is up to everybody, as well as the decision either to play in guilds, teams, with alts, or a mix of all that.

@Daomei: I agree there's certain players that go off the beaten track to make grinding a more challenging activity for them. Amazons Mysticia for exampe does that a lot. All I'm saying is that most people don't do that, but still think Ryzom is a more difficult game because it has a long and arduous grind.

I just think that's a very artificial difficulty. It doesn't challenge you as a player, it just forces you to spin that hamster's wheel longer and harder.

And I also agree many games, like the ones you mentioned, have been totally dumbing down the experience to make it completely accessible to casuals. Someone once told me nowadays you can reach level cap in WoW in one day. But what kills the challenge in those dumbed down games isn't the ease of leveling, but the ease of the "end game" content as well. Raids in WoW are also very easy, dumbed down and casual from what people keep telling me as they quit the game.

I would be totally fine with a game in which you could reach level cap fast but then have difficult, challenging and deep end game activities that require tactics and coordination. In EVE skill training is passive, you don't need to grind for skills. It happens automatically, you just choose which ones to train first. All you need to grind for is isk, but there are just so many different ways to acquire isk, and some of them aren't even grindy at all. Just requires you to be clever about it. And no one in their right mind would say EVE is an easy or casual game. It's as hard as they come.

D'un côté on a les partisans de l'exp facile, de l'autre ceux de l'exp difficile (ou normale, je dirais).

Actuellement, un joueur abonné est automatiquement mis sous exp facile, sans même avoir le droit de désactiver les catas. Autrement dis, le niveau d'exp facile est devenu un standard, et c'est pour cela qu'il y a une demande de la part des pro-exp facile.

Je ne pense pas que cet exp facile imposé ai un quelconque impact positif sur le jeu (ni même sur le nombre d'abonné parce que je sais bien que le but est là).

Au contraire, il n'a que des impactes négatifs, et c'est pour cela que nous sommes en train d'en discuter ici.

La solution a déjà été proposée : Désactiver ce système, redonner ainsi de l'importance à la production de catas (que ce soit par les OP ou métier ou je ne sais quoi).
De ce fait, l'exp normale redevient le standard, et l'exp facile le bonus.

Et pourquoi pas le métier de ramasseur de bouses à l'étable (très facile d'accès et échangeable au taux de 1 cata le kilo, l'étable va être propre :) ).

Could you please start using English?
I really don't speak french and the translator ist not helping. It just puts out extremely incorrect sentences with little to no meaning.

Can't really expect someone to magically speak in a language they do not know...perhaps just don't comment on the posts you don't understand?Everyone has the right to voice their opinion.

Well, those who chose boredom have lost the right to complain about. And no, the grind is not long and arduous unless you choose to master lots of skills.

For the game proper, that is completely unnecessary. nearly all standard melee combat tasks can be done with 3 weapons, namely 1h sword, 2h axe (or sword, up to you), and pike. All the rest may play a role e.g. in PvP, but is not necessary. And there is no need to level them all up to master at a time. Mostly. even a master is not really a must.

In magic, off ele and heal are important, where heal is already useful and powerful from lvl 125 on, and healers are always in demand. And ele is easy to train.

So let us do some math. How hard is it for a solo player to reach lvl 50 from lvl 25, then going on?

Assuming she takes only on opponents 20lvls and more above her level, yielding 6k xp each, it is 58 kills (avg and mean kill rate per level is 3). A solo player, sitting down and using self heal, may still kill 10-20 mobs per hour. When fighting in a team, e.g. with a healer, xp will drop to 2/3, but kills per hour will rise to 50-100. I still recall how some kind players (thanks Tomstato ;)) took me as a healer at level 24, healing in Dyron and FF, and I became lvl 78 in an afternoon.

Between lvl 50 and lvl 100, it is already somewhat more, kill rate per level rises from 4 to 8, and it needs 338 kills for a solo player to achieve lvl 100. To get to lvl 150 from lvl 100, it needs 542 kills (from 8 to 15 kills ph), and from 150 to 200, it will be 931 kills (from 15 to 22). Between 1 and 3 lvls per hour are still possible.

Just for completeness: To reach the master level, it takes other 1315 kills at 6k xp, which is not possible, as xp drops to 2000 per opponent once one kills mobs of the own level. Moreover, at those levels, healers and teams are very recommended.

What I wanted to show: it is in no way hard or cruel grind to reach level 200 in any combat skill. If concentrating on, it can be done in a week or two of casual play. On the toplevels, more cooperation is recommended, and, btw. is more fun too.

Assuming you are playing in team all time, have an average yield of 4k xp/mob, and a fairly low kill rate of 60 mobs per hour (kincher and najab teams will rofl about, they do up to 3 kills per minute), it takes 45hrs to ascend from lvl 50 to 200, and 78hrs from 50-250. I fail to see that an exaggerated effort. (btw. I took a low kill rate to take in account the time to gather a team and hold it together)

[quote]I just think that's a very artificial difficulty. It doesn't challenge you as a player, it just forces you to spin that hamster's wheel longer and harder. [quote]
In Ryzom, the route is the goal. I had much fun during level training, and somewhat regret that the times are over when I could do training with newcomers, showing them spots and tricks. And I still like plod teams and sometimes heal off team (granted I want my share of skins and eyes, then :) )


Ryzom is not such kind of game, and won't be. Btw, I do not consider 2 weeks til master a hamster wheel. Those of us who are achievement addicts clearly have to grind, and those who do have fun. Those who don't may achieve the necessary minimum of masters, or even high levels without masters, and engage in other activities like roleplay, explorations, harvesting, or PvP. They cannot request to get a Spirit of War title within a few days.

Well I know Eve, and do not like it due to being forced to PvP. But just a matter of taste. And leveling in digging ist also widely passive, you have to dig for range fight (and will have maxed ammo crafting before auto/launcher fighting). Other crafts will come when doing dapper missions, or occupations. There is a lot of passive leveling in Ryzom.

Even though your calculations are extremely favoring your point of view, they clearly show that a normal player would be forced to grind for one whole month at 2 hours a day in order to get one master. That is two hours of doing nothing but constantly grinding monsters that are not even hard to kill.
What about occupations? What about PvP? What about guild life? What about fame? What about crafting and harvesting?
I can't farm two hours every day just to enjoy the game like the others do. I can't farm two hours a day for half a year without doing nothing else just to wield 3 different weapons, heal and deal some damage.

The point is not if it is possible, the point is that it is neither challenging nor fun. It is just extremely repetetive. And who is gonna craft all the stuff I am using? Who is gonna harvest all the mats if I don't have time for it?
You can't say this is in any way justified or purposeful. I don't want to grind one weapon to master and stick to it for eternity because leveling is just too boring. I want to be free to do whatever I want to do without needing to grind for more than one month just to use the weapon on a level the community expects me to. What happens if I notice I don't like 2-hand weapons? Should I be punished by having to level 1h sword + dagger? (Which are two masters by the way!) Giving me the opportunity to get more experience simply makes the choice to level another weapon easier. The other option would be to leave the game, because the grinds are in no way justified. Which is exactly what many many people do. I want to change that.

I'm not 100% sure what the rush to multi-master is. Also, given the difficulty hitting much more than 20 levels above you, I think that any XP bonus from raising the cap would be more than countered by the huge increase in TTK and subsequent plummet in XP/hr. Sure, it might be nice to give bigger rewards for tougher targets, but such targets are so bad for levelling that they are usually done more for fun and/or mats than for XP anyways, making it moot.

IMO, even that is a bit much. The first Fight mastery helps in many, many ways, but after that you really hit the point of diminishing returns. Unless you are so into PvP that you lose sleep sweating whether or not an additional -2 to Adversary Dodge is worth a 1.4% reduction in DPS, I'd say one weapon mastery is enough for most homins. The only exceptions are people who do a lot of "arena style" PvP. But if you are just doing PvE, OP battles and bodyguarding SN diggers, just one will do.

Oh, I still show them the spots and tricks. I just usually don't take an active part in combat when teamed since pretty much anything I do would nerf hard. I know quite a few people who don't even really much care about levelling much either since they can already do what they want to do.... and not all of them are old-timers with a long list of Masters.

IMO, levelling is merely a means to an end. 

Very true. I never really set out to get high levels of 2h Sword crafting or HA Vest crafting, but my pursuit of dappers from Overseer missions gave me both. And I never put any real effort into Heal either, yet the mere act of supporting teammates got me into the 240s.

I hear people saying a lot that Ryzom doesn't have an end game and it's all about the journey. While that's partially true, any MMO, no matter how theme park it is, can be played that way. But Ryzom does have an end game. A very clear one. Digging supreme q250 mats, scouting and killing q270 bosses, going on NPC boss "raids" for mara armor, PVP in supernodes and OP wars. All of those are end game activities. It's what people do when they master what they wanted to master. And while you can participate in those with a lower level toon, you'll be pretty much useless and more often than not a hindrance to your team (a heal 150ish can be helpful in some of those, but still nothing decisive).

The truth is that people join an established guild, and all their guildies are getting calls for boss hunts in high level zones, going on OP wars, etc. And new players feel like they need to get at least a couple masters to be able to keep up with the guild. But after they get 1 or 2, they realize they need at least a few more.

A PVE'er who just wants to do the basics needs 250 in ele, 1 melee, a 200+ heal (250 if he wants to do Pei-Ruz though), and at least one 250 in forage (but preferably one in PR as well if he wants supreme gear). That's 4-5 masters.

If you actually want to craft, add more to that. If you want to craft armor or jewelry, good luck with the grind. =P

If you want to compete in high level PVP and be really well rounded and ready for any situation, that's closer to 13 masters.

Sure, there are games more grindy than Ryzom and that's the nature of MMOs. But sorry, the above is very grindy to me. I have seen several people quit Ryzom throughout the years because they couldn't take the grind, and the community here just dismisses the issue as players who want easy mode.

And what you describe is not passive training. In EVE you choose a skill, put it on the queue, and it will train automatically, even if you're logged off. You don't have to do anything else. You're free to do other stuff in the game you enjoy. Mining, crafting, pvp, RP, exploration, whatever you want. There's no mandatory skill/level grind before you can access certain content in the game. I'm not an EVE player, FYI. Just tried it out some time ago. But it's a good game design and I wish more MMO's did that.

I strongly disagree here. Let us have a look at the "end game content":
- sup mat digging
Supreme mat does not start at q250 but at q150. When crafting for levels below 225/240, those materials are exactly as valuable as those of q250. And a CPer is of much help even at lvl 125 when digging q250 mats. For sub-q250 even CPers below that are not bad, and diggers between 140 and 190 may dig q150-200 mat not so much worse than a master (somewhat worse ofc, granted).
- boss scouting and hunting
Not only q270 bosses matter, for some purposes like PvP jewels and Eroukan armor, some q220 bosses are equally or even more important. For other boss mat below q250/200, same goes as mentioned above. And while scouting can be best done by somebody with max hp, that is not absolutely necessary. 225 in anything suffices for max dodge hp boosted by max adv dodge daggers of which the level is not that important (ok bit more hp for q250 ones). And aside from intentional scouting, attentive players alerting their friends and guildies are useful and make a difference, no matter what level.
During boss hunts, younger players or f2p often have an important role as backhealers. I recall that Triplex once asked me to assist him with Shooketh, when my heal level was fairly below 175. I just followed orders and rezed and healed as told. Was a great adventure and demonstrates that even lower level players, even when bit clumsy like me, are not excluded from "end game content" because they are not masters.
- NPC boss hunts
In the open round, even players below level 100 have been accepted, mainly as backhealers, and have proven useful. Beneath that, the participation in a multiteam fighting event is an interesting experience, and much of a challenge for the leader of the event. Participation of lower level players is an important element of inclusion of players of all levels. It does not need any master to do a significant contribution.
- PvP in supernodes and OP wars
Here again, players of every level are accepted. Granted that the lower levels are serving as backhealers and CPers in the further and mainly backhealers/healers, and beside that as cannonfodder in the latter, they are welcome and useful. Again, no "endgame content".

Pei-Ruz is possibly the only one where masters in ele and melee (2h axe or sword) are required or at least a decisive advantage, so are healing capabilities best not below lvl220, celestial guardian a nice to have. It is absolutely possible to do Dante without a master in team, and not hard with only a few masters.

In an established guild in particular, young players should be integrated, not made feeling inferior because they have not mastered skills. I recall a highly respected player in KoD, having been f2p for years before subscribing, and having played a crucial role though, organizing guild and player events, participating in PvP, SN, OP wars, boss hunts, boss scouting, PR digging, everything. He was respected as a highly skilled and valuable player. A guild failing its duty to respect younger players misses the point of the game.

My apologies, but that is rubbish. Masters are handy, but no need. I played the game nearly a year at very high intensity before mastering my first skill (granted, the reason was that I developped very much in parallel at a time). I cannot say that I missed much. Even after reaching lvl250 I always felt that I had still lots to learn, and most of it could be learned without a master, some even better when your level was not so high.

Of course, masters are an advantage. As Gidget correctly stated, the return of mastering highly diminishes with the skills already mastered. In digging, you need one master, then reach lvl240, lean back and let it happen. In crafting it is much the same. Only those addicted to achievements (like me) will try to obtain master levels no matter whether useful or not.
If you want to craft, you have to train it. Otherwise you always may dig up the mats and ask a crafter, there are a lot around. And they did not get their skills without effort.

As to the difference between Eve and Ryzom, I am not sure that I were happy to have a skill trained automatically by time elapsed even if logged out. I do not say that such does not work, but I prefer our system which encourages own effort, teaming up, choice of weapon and gear, creates interdependencies and leaves the choice to do it the safer way or pick challenges.

To PvP I decline to comment, as I do not practise PvP. If your fellow PvPer set such standards for competition, which looksto me like an arms race with poor respect of dexterity, it is up to you and your fellow players. If you are content, no problem. But complaints that the "required" master levels are not given for free is beyond my understanding.

True except the unfounded accusation that the models were biased, they were conservative estimates to my impression. And I would dissuade anybody to grind 2hrs a day only "to get a master" unless having abundance of time to spend every day. Doing so means you have not understood the game.

Having reached a level, be it 50, 100, 150, 200, above or inbetween, empowers you to do a lot of things in Ryzom, such as fighting, healing, exploring, harvesting, and so on. You will not have understood a hundredth of the intricacies and mechanics of the game when reaching medium (100, 150+) or high levels (200+) or even "master". A player using her first month on mainland not to grind to "master" at any cost, but thoroughly exploring, learning about seasons, weather, mob behaviour and movements and general survival will definitely be the better player at the end of that month, even if she has no level above 100.
As a sidenote: Ryzom animals are not "monsters". Their behavioral patterns, especially of herbivores and carnivores are modeled after behavioral biology, and they differ from species to species. It is worth while much more to familiarize with their behavior than rushing to as high fight/magic levels as possible.

All "not hard to kill" targets are just an offer one may follow or not. If taking the ease of attacking "easy" mobs it is wierd to complain that they pose no threat. There are enough dangerous targets to pick, and I can confirm that they are more fun.
What about occupations? What about PvP? What about guild life? What about fame? What about crafting and harvesting?
I can't farm two hours every day just to enjoy the game like the others do. I can't farm two hours a day for half a year without doing nothing else just to wield 3 different weapons, heal and deal some damage.

There are lots of players ingame who had no qualms to undergo the efforts of training. Most will be willing to craft the stuff you cannot craft yourself. Mind that this is a multiuser game.

When leveling digging and crafting is no challenge to you drop it and rely on guildies and other helpful players, there are lots around.
And most of them found purpose and satisfaction in training those skills they are practising.

The game is designed so that one cannot do everything on one's own from the beginning (it is possible, but is a long way reserved to those ready to take the pain) . But if you want to have the skill to use a weapon you will have to train it.