Free to Play model needs to change slightly! - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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What you do think about this Free to Play model?

Implement this!
Atys: Aelia, Mehtori, Nitrouss, Nutsy, Omer, Ravens

14.3%

This is good with minor adjustments.
Atys: Rikutatis

2.4%

Neutral
Atys: Djiper

2.4%

I do not think this will help Ryzom.
Atys: Alrik, Bitttymacod, Dinorath, Kyohei, Kyriann, Lhyrs, Placio, Yubina, Yuboslaughter, Zilon

10 (2)

23.8%

I like the current Free to Play model. Do not change.
Atys: Aaylejah, Arfur, Asumi, Ausonius, Bazett, Bradbreddan, Ethiniiel, Ingfarah, Kaehla, Karagoz, Keeria, Kilvaner, Macwilson, Marae, Mermaidia, Naema, Nehrie, Nokkuya, Nuttie, Oxxy, Phaozhu, Sienn, Tjerch

23 (2)

54.8%

Other
Atys: Larla

2.4%

Abstain

#20 Added by Salazar 9 years ago [de]

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I'm all with you, Bitty.

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Salazar Caradini
Filira Matia
Royal Historian
Member of the Royal Academy of Yrkanis
First Seraph of the Order of the Argo Navis

#21 Added by Mjollren 9 years ago [en]

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I think it's a false lead, talking about the subscription cost and comparing it to other things. There are plenty people that will NOT subscribe unless really pushed, just as a life philosophy (actually had a guildie who openly admitted to never paying for online games whatsoever). There are plenty people who live in countries where $10 each month is actually a significant amount of money (eastern Europe, north Africa, parts of Asia and so on). Finally, there are always objective reasons to not subscribe - financial or simply not enough time to feel it's worth your money, you just want to be able to pop in 3 times per month and say hello to guildies.

So, trying to find a way to allow people to use their own character while not subscribed is quite valid. There are plenty of companies that found various ways to extract money out of players without crippling their experience (to be f2p in Ryzom is to be relegated as a healer most of the time; tanks have shitty life, mages can't really hit anything). Sure, on the other hand players should not be able to play infinitely without paying - that just defeats the purpose.

There's a fine balance to be found. I would not shoot down another's ideas just because they may require fine-tuning. If Ryzom is to be truly and fully enjoyed by masses, many entrenched things may require changing. The current payment model is one of them.

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#22 Added by Placio 9 years ago [en]

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Mjollren

(to be f2p in Ryzom is to be relegated as a healer most of the time; tanks have shitty life, mages can't really hit anything)

That statement certainly applies to f2p that want to run around q200 or q250 regions, but thats not what a f2p player is limited to. In any game if you went to a region twice your level what would you expect to do?! Teams of f2p can hunt lvl 160 nameds and probably a few 170 bosses. So the limitations are not game imposed, but rather a lack of knowledge or creativity by the f2p player.

#23 Added by Rikutatis 9 years ago [en]

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Mjollren

I think it's a false lead, talking about the subscription cost and comparing it to other things. There are plenty people that will NOT subscribe unless really pushed, just as a life philosophy (actually had a guildie who openly admitted to never paying for online games whatsoever). There are plenty people who live in countries where $10 each month is actually a significant amount of money (eastern Europe, north Africa, parts of Asia and so on). Finally, there are always objective reasons to not subscribe - financial or simply not enough time to feel it's worth your money, you just want to be able to pop in 3 times per month and say hello to guildies.

So, trying to find a way to allow people to use their own character while not subscribed is quite valid. There are plenty of companies that found various ways to extract money out of players without crippling their experience (to be f2p in Ryzom is to be relegated as a healer most of the time; tanks have shitty life, mages can't really hit anything). Sure, on the other hand players should not be able to play infinitely without paying - that just defeats the purpose.

There's a fine balance to be found. I would not shoot down another's ideas just because they may require fine-tuning. If Ryzom is to be truly and fully enjoyed by masses, many entrenched things may require changing. The current payment model is one of them.

I agree with Mjollren here. I think not paying for a game because of a life philosophy or some such is bullshit, but all the other reasons are valid (you can add South America to the list of places where $10 per month is a significant amount of money and feels even more significant if you're only logging on a few times per month =P).

I think the problem is that f2p games are generally associated with a cash shop of some sort (be that cash shop pay to win or simply cosmetics). So the game gets its revenue that way. Ryzom doesn't have a cash shop, so it needs to support itself in another way.

I think Hijati's idea is worth considering, given a few modifications and such.

I never played Everquest 2, but someone told me they have a f2p method in which certain classes and races need to be purchased from their cash shop, while others are completely f2p. Or how many characters you can have per account, etc.

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#24 Added by Yubina 9 years ago [en]

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Many very different opinions here, where to start.
First I fully agree with Bitty :) *wave*

I have two p2p accounts by myself, I regularly spent more per month in other games items shops in the past, than I pay for this two subs now. (I see my subs as a way to support the development of this wonderful game.)
I don't like the pay to win of other games where you can just spend a little fortune and run around nearly immortal afterwards. And I hope Ryzom will never become like this!

I read some of the reviews on steam, unfortunately many of the people who do not recommend Ryzom didn't played it for long, it seems many of them never left Silan at all (nor hit any mini master).
This negative reviews are bad, but changing the level cap for the payment is no solution to prevent them in my opinion.

But I have some other ideas:
It's very bad for Ryzoms population that players with an expired sub can't log in any more, a possible alternative I see is to allow them login, but disable any skill progress (including skills below 125) if the sub is expired.

And I like the idea of additional payed game services done by the support, like for example:
- character recreation, change your look and/or race and keep your levels and everything else
- change your characters name (and keep everything else as it is)
- transfer a character from one account to an other, from p2p to p2p or f2p to p2p (maybe better not from p2p to f2p and not from f2p to f2p, because there is a high risk of misuse)

I would pay at least 10 Euro for each of this (did so in the past in other games)

Restoring pre merge accounts should always be a free customer service, to prevent obstacles for returning players as far as possible.

And for all those who are just sad like me about those negative reviews on steam, go steam and give you own positive review, please!

Thank you for reading :)

#25 Added by Kovabon 9 years ago [en]

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I have NEVER did a F2P in any game, so I don't know what the limitations are, really. However, If I didn't like the game, I would have never lasted for more thatn a month or two.

As someone else said, it is damn cheap, even with the bugs in the game. Like someone said, it costs less that three "fancy coffee drinks" a month.

So, damn, if you cannot afford that, how did you afford your computer itself?

Yeah... I am being somewhat mean. I would like it if F2P were more restricted, honestly.

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I need me a new tag line on my messages!

#26 Added by Rikutatis 9 years ago [en]

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Kovabon

As someone else said, it is damn cheap, even with the bugs in the game. Like someone said, it costs less that three "fancy coffee drinks" a month.

So, damn, if you cannot afford that, how did you afford your computer itself?

Yeah... I am being somewhat mean. I would like it if F2P were more restricted, honestly.

Ok, just a couple things. There IS an entire world outside of the USA and western europe, alright? =P

In some countries, 1 dollar is the equivalent of 5, 20, 50 or however many of their money. In those countries, the minimal wage is usually something very atrocious. In my own case, minimal wage is approx. 350 dollars per month. Unless you're an enginneer (lucky bastards ^^), you're pretty much guaranteed to be paid minimal wage at any entry level position.

Now don't get me wrong. I understand this is an european company and they probably pay their bills in euros, etc. I'm not saying the game's financial plan needs to cater to third world countries =P

All I'm saying is that it's a bit of an entitled opinion to come and say you don't know how someone can't afford that. And a bit offensive as well, tbh. If you really want to know how people in some places buy computers, it's usually by paying through multiple monthly installments, sometimes for as long as one, two years or more =P

Now back to the topic. These are all very valid ideas I think:

Yubina

It's very bad for Ryzoms population that players with an expired sub can't log in any more, a possible alternative I see is to allow them login, but disable any skill progress (including skills below 125) if the sub is expired.

And I like the idea of additional payed game services done by the support, like for example:
- character recreation, change your look and/or race and keep your levels and everything else
- change your characters name (and keep everything else as it is)
- transfer a character from one account to an other, from p2p to p2p or f2p to p2p (maybe better not from p2p to f2p and not from f2p to f2p, because there is a high risk of misuse)

I would pay at least 10 Euro for each of this (did so in the past in other games)

Restoring pre merge accounts should always be a free customer service, to prevent obstacles for returning players as far as possible.

Additionally, they could sell all those different apartment decorations as well. Or other cosmetic items like the special tattoos, etc.

I think we just need to be realistic here. If what we want is a healthy player base and population, the truth is that unless you're WoW or EVE online, over the past several years there's been a mass exodus away from games heavily based on subscription models.

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#27 Added by Tuxi 9 years ago [en]

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The idea that some people never pay for online games just because of some principle or philosophy is appalling. Online games take work to create, promote, and run.. they don't just happen. It's hard to understand how so many people don't appreciate that and refuse to support the people who made their entertainment possible.

Anyway, I very much agree with this:

Yubina

It's very bad for Ryzoms population that players with an expired sub can't log in any more, a possible alternative I see is to allow them login, but disable any skill progress (including skills below 125) if the sub is expired.
[...]
Restoring pre merge accounts should always be a free customer service, to prevent obstacles for returning players as far as possible.

I personally came to a point where I couldn't justify continuing my monthly subscription so I had to discontinue it for a while. In that time I missed Ryzom and would have loved to check in and say hi once in a while, and keep up with current events. Had I been able to do that, I probably would have resubscribed much sooner than I did. Instead, I was completely disconnected and Ryzom went out of view. It wasn't until it was put in my face a few times by the steam promotions that I started thinking about it again, and now I've reactivated my subscription. I think if I had been able to access my account I would have been tempted to resub much sooner.

#28 Added by Jizzy 9 years ago [en]

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Tuxi

The idea that some people never pay for online games just because of some principle or philosophy is appalling. Online games take work to create, promote, and run.. they don't just happen. It's hard to understand how so many people don't appreciate that and refuse to support the people who made their entertainment possible.

Sometimes I would pay if the content has reasonable prices. A bad example is Star-Conflict, which asks for my monthly money above my expense just to get into the mid-game, tripples that for early-late game and 10x to play in the top tier.

I also don't pay for games that act as Gate-keepers or footpads between Linux or your hardware and community content.
I believe that community content leads to digital slavery - The game that collects the most valuable content and steals it by locking it away from users via proprietary software, easily-changeable terms of use and sold access will be the most demanded. This can't be right.

EDIT: I call this is not a question of payment, but a vote from a citizen. The evil comes in shape of a gift here.

BUT

For all other games, I figured out a good formula for how much you should pay:
– (Your PC's cost) * (the time you play this game) / (the time you keep this PC)

–––

My PC purchase cost is about 100€ per year, but my internet cost + taxes for "digital media usage" is about 500€ per year.

I think it's not very surprising that we easily spend between (400€ / 4 years) and (800€ / 3 years) when the main factor is internet and tax costs.

I am ready to pay about 20€ a month for games, wikipedia donations, etc.
BUT
I would never pay 10€ a month for a single game. I pay more 10€ once for a game I enjoy over a week and play 2.

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I remember the times before 2007 when I bought offline games such as "Earth 2160" on a CD to play it's campaign – back then me and my brother paid 20€ total for 1-2 games about each third month.

When I compare this to the develope-once, get-paid 1'000'000-times games from today I fear that the most demanding games with most community-content or money to pay developers are the ones that catch all customers rather than the really good ones.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Jizzy (9 years ago)

#29 Added by Nehrie 9 years ago [en]

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I agree with Bittty.

Last edited by Nehrie (9 years ago)

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The Clan

#30 Added by Larla 8 years ago Multilingual

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I'm teetering on subscribing but I have to say that being over 100 on a couple of stats, I don't see what more I would get out of the game at a higher level to justify a subscription. WAIT! Before you get too angry with me....

Ryzom, IMHO has these major things going for it (there are many others I wont list for brevity):

Great art style and execution.
Smooth predictable movement, combat and navigation.
Complex and interesting harvesting / crafting beyond almost all games of the genre.
Well designed and meaningful skill trees that do not punish the player for exploring
Open and dangerous world with diverse landscape (though the mobs are very similar all over)
Weather and time (day/night/seasons) affect the player experience in a meaningful way
Community, I feel like I know a lot of people here and find it easy to make friends.

That said, the subscription is expecting me to support the continuation of server maintenance and development and in return I get additionally:

more storage
faster xp gain
ability to level character and have a few more skills
the server stays running to keep up the community
the community of volunteer developers are encouraged to support the game (just a guess here)

This is compelling, but in reality it feels like subscribing means:

the server will stay up and will remain largely unchanged as it has since it began over 10 years ago
The status bars on my characters will grow faster for more time my character will level up a bit more it will know a few more recipes and it knows a few more skills.
If I stop paying I lose the hours I put in (my time has some value too)
If I keep paying I find I have spent about US$100 in a year
but I could have just nearly all that the game really has to offer e.g. community for $0. If I feel guilty about that, I will play something else. Why should anyone feel guilty about a game?

That said, I think some games (I wont mention names) give a lot back to players for their money even though they are f2p (and Ryzom is more like free demo):

additional content in the form of maps, puzzles, story, prizes, achievements, bling
users are never punished for not paying
lots of ways to spend small amounts of real money for cosmetics, experience boosters, additional storage (these are permanent increases) pets and in game currency to buy items and crafting components.

I think the idea of making payments only to reward players monetary contributions instead of threatening punishment should be considered. Anyone running an MMO should see the value of the time that players give to create the community and foster its growth especially in a "sandbox" game where players must define their own goals and create novel experiences for others, especially those that are first entering the game.

Many Ryzom players are very helpful to new players. They invest time and energy to keep the world alive, but I think too many players end up leaving because they have a hard time seeing the future in novel experiences based on what they learn of this games history.

#31 Added by Loved 8 years ago [en]

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As someone who has played many other MMOs and is currently paying for more than one, Your points are quite valid. Here are some things to consider.

1) f2p --> p2p ---> f2p transition is coming, it is officially announced. This will be a big deal, lots will return.

2) IF you can afford it as an "entertainment bill" (by cutting something you don't need even) it's basically an investment. Is new stuff coming? Actually... yes... for the first time in a long time.

3) If you support the game the changes that need to happen are more likely than if you do not. Similarly if you sread that idea to newbies, and friends, and in the form of reviews etc, actualisation is more likely than not

It's kind of an "if you can afford it you might as well"

Vanity items and skins, non combat things,would quite possibly save the game in terms of money problems. I expect it will happen one day. Till then they need us.

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#32 Added by Fifi 8 years ago [en]

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Every player can see that what make Ryzom unique is the roleplayer comunity.
In front of all the other MMORPG, if you want to succeed you have to improve what you are the best in, because Ryzom will always be a niche game.
So if there is a game who could the most profit of cosmetic microtransaction model, this is Ryzom.

Pay to win ( like double xp, stat cap,...) is not a good model, cause Ryzom is the MMORPG where "wining" is the less meaningfull, and its not what drive player compare to other games.

All right, this is a lots of works to change the model and do cosmetic stuff, but begining by selling pets with no hiting box and who are just a mini model of existing mobs is that dificult to do in middle term ? instead implementing fishing and other stuff ?

Edited 4 times | Last edited by Fifi (8 years ago)

#33 Added by Kyohei 8 years ago [en]

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+1 for the microtransactions model

#34 Added by Larla 8 years ago [en]

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Loved and I had a chat last night and some ideas that came from this are:

Keep monthly/yearly subs that provides only:

double xp for the time paid
a special non-storage (only follows player, also does not fight, aggro, etc) pet (made from pool of existing mobs), or cosmetic item for every full year that a player subs to reward long term support.

Microtransactions that can provide players (EDIT) *with dappers* to buy:

extra permanant storage
cosmetics (not including long term sub items)
pets (not including long term sub pets)
xp catalyzers
more things that other players make
(EDIT) packs of additional map markers

(EDIT) This hopefully adds more dappers to the economy and provides more meaningful sinks in which to spend them.

I'm not sure where guild related benefits would fall but I suspect they should remain as they are with the subscription model.

I do not think buying xp cats or getting double XP is pay to win. As Fifi points out, the term "winning" is not applicable to Ryzom. I think players should be able to accelerate the progression of their toon if they desire as they may be vets making a new toon, don't like to grind, have limited time, want to catch up with friends. Experience Points are not nearly as meaningful here as finding teams, making friends, and gaining actual knowledge about how the game works. That is if you don't learn how to construct effective actions from stanzas and learn when to use them, learn the traits of weapons and armor, the strength and weakness of mobs and tactics your toon levels will have little meaning.

Last edited by Larla (8 years ago)

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