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Before I comment on Tumbleweed's post, some words about Nehrie's post (#6). I disagree that there is a conflict between "the PvPers" and "the crafters". Many of the most experienced crafters are active PvP players themselves, and not few were and are designing equipment especially for PvP purposes (e.g. PvP jewels, but also weapons, OP mat or not, with properties needed for PvP). And even crafters not or not much interested in PvP will usually not deny to craft gear for PvP purposes. If there are people who want to drive others out of the game, report them to the CSR.

I disagree, though, that crafting were useful for PvP only. There is a lot of equipment for PvE, even for special classes of mobs (fire, elec etc. protection jewelry, max pierce or slash weapons and armor etc.) which are important to fight nameds or bosses, or to survive in high level areas.

Now some short comments about Tumbleweed's post (#12). I agree to some of the points, with certain reservations. Yes, the PvP shops are insufficiently stuffed. Yet, to be honest, I am not happy even with the skirt which awakens the desire for more PvP specific armor, best with outstanding properties no crafter is able to build. In a way, Pandora's box has been opened with the NPC boss hunts already, but that opportunity to get full armor is more restricted. I would favor e.g. craft crystals, also below q200 being offered in faction shops (and not for cheap prices) to retain the interdependency of crafting and gameplay. I can't think of many other rewards to be honest, and would like more proposals.

As to many of the other points: Different e.g. to Eve, Ryzom is not a PvP game with some PvE (which cannot sufficiently be played without PvP which made me quit there), but just the other way round. Ryzom started as a harvesting, crafting, exploration and hunting game, where PvP was added later as an element of the game, but not more.

Maybe it is true that the possible combination of actions is wanting compared to some full fledged PvP games. But mind that a too high number of combinations is leading to combinatorial explosion, meaning that linear extension of possibilities is leading to a polynomial increase towards an uncontrollable and unpredictable number of outcomes. I found that situation in GW where actions constantly had to be rebalanced and nerfed because PvP players found new combinations making some classes and builds unplayable, and others invincible. That lead to constant disruptions of PvE gameplay in a game where roughly 90% of the players were playing solely or mainly PvE. I had professional contact with some Arena people and learnt that roughly 60% of the programming/maintenance effort was spent on PvP related stuff, and over 80% of the administrative work (tickets, complaints, conduct). So mind that even things technically feasible may not be possible in a low staffed MMO like Ryzom.

This is a good point. The only gear really needed to pvp are jewels which can be earned running q210 nameds for a week and digging excel q250 mats. It also really depends on what type of pvp you are doing on what quality of armour you need. 1v1 is more reliant on gear whilst 2v2 you can pvp in crap gear (eg. q50 skirt) and still get away with it with good tactics. In OP wars you can even be naked (still with jewels though), just depends on the amount of attention you recieve from the enemy tanks. Tactics > Gear.

Daomei I think you will find the majority of PvPers aren't asking for constant updates of new skills and skill balancing every month.. just some new content would be nice. In all my time playing Ryzom (iirc) the only 'new' addition to pvp has been mara/neutral pvp items which don't change pvp gameplay at all.

bawhahaha... I thought making people cry was the reason for pvp!

LOL, wtf Nitrouss, you're still lurking around mate ^^

Where have you been lately??

I don't do PvP, never quite understood the attraction but in talking to those that do and those that don't, there are several things that have to be recognized. In addition, I am speaking as a player who "grew up" on Arispotle and when speaking about pre-merge activities, obviously things progressed differently on other servers.

1. At least in Ari, the population was well mixed between PvP'ers and PVE'ers but it can not go unrecognized that, at least in NA, Ryzom in its early stage was strictly PvE and, as such with dozens of Pvp oriented titles to choose from, Ryzom became *the* haven for those who where not interested in the Pvp element. When PvP was introduced, many of them left and server population took a major hit.

There's no reason the PvE and pvp contingents can't exists side by side as long as each other respects the others PoV ... as long as that PoV does not include anything non-consesual and forcing one view upon another's.

2. There seem to be two approaches to PvP.

a) We want a challenge and we want both sides to have **reasonably** comparable numbers, skills, gear, etc so that strategies and technique are what invariably wins the day.

b) We don't want a fair challenge, we just want to dominate and have all the goodies to ourselves.

3. As far as the lore / behavior angle, RP is fine but I agree with OP in that the lore should not be use as an excuse to behave badly. Whatever any player decides to do IG, they should not find themselves in a position to be "punished" or ostracized because they don't want to take RP to the extent that others do. And if what you do does not affect another player, then no one should have a problem with it.

4. Let's drop the fallacy that "one does not have to do PvP go in PvP areas in order to have full access to rewards in the game". Those that PvP and those that don't both pay the same subscription fees and therefore should be afforded the same opportunities for rewards.

That's not a stand that there shouldn't be a PvP area for SNs that PvPers can enjoy themselves battling over or that there should not be rewards for PvP points or anything like that.

But there should be an "equal opportunity" for those that are not interested. Why can't Rangers own "Kitin Outposts" near spots where kitin mounds are located which produce rewards similar to what PvP OPs offer ? Why can't Rangers take down KPs or other such PvE activities which offer equivalent rewards to PvP points ?

An area where KPs replaced the Vorax guards would allow PvE'ers to reap similar rewards for a similar effort as PvP'ers do at current SNs ? But what's to stop the PvPers from double dipping ? How about wandering tribes of NPC Tryronist homins which look unfavorably on faction aligned homins ?

It's worth mentioning about super nodes that the same pattern has existed since 2004:

a) something changes and everyone swoons in seeking to obtain dominance in the "new era".

b) a period of not just "getting what ya need but to make sure any potential opponent can't get it" follows and so multiple storage GHs are maintained to hoard these materials.

c) Eventually, having 5,000 sup zun in alternate GHs makes it a bit old, and SNs are left to be dug by a few lone diggers.


6. Sitting on the sidelines what I have observed is that whenever one side dominates, people leave. First, those stuck losing all the time and being cut off from access to "uber" gear that, whether real or imagined, could put them in a position to better compete, get frustrated and go.

Those on the dominant side looking for excitement and a challenge just get bored. They start to leave in even greater numbers. Then when sides get even again, the underdog gets control and after a short period of satisfaction from having "turned the tables", there's nothing left but "Deja Vu all over again"

The most vibrant time (for both PvP and PVE folks) I have spent on Atys was when long time players in large established guilds came to a similar mindset that PvP is only fun when it's a challenge and when the outcome is unknown. As such, neutral guilds would wind up supporting one side in the morning and another in the afternoon. Entire guilds would toss RP aside and "switch factions" because ... '"always winning is almost as bad as always losing". Some guilds would take and OP and then "give it back" a few weeks later.

As an observer, the nicest part of that time was that there was no taunting or baked beans (obscure reference to "B&M Baked Beans") being thrown around in chat, or other unattractive behaviors.

If ya want exciting PvP, one course might be to look at what the players have control over. The community has the power to make it interesting, challenging and exciting. If ya want a fair fight where ya don't know what the outcome is gonna be, there are ways of making it so.

In college we'd do 3 v 3 tournaments, where the losing team got to pick a player from the wining team who would swap teams, then the winner would choose one from the losing team. At the end of the day, most had to stop and think how many they won and how many they lost but it was fun and we were back doing it the next day..

If you're leaving a PvP instance angry at another player / players, it's not fun. That's not going to be fixed by a change in game mechanics or content. Only the community can make that change and part of that includes, RP aside, recognizing a spade as a spade it comes to such unpleasantries.

hi Freddy =)

Totally agree, and I do think Ryzom's pvp fits this bill quite nicely. PVP in Ryzom is pretty much consensual. You either tag up, attend an OP war or go into the pvp enabled PR zones. All the materials you obtain from those zones can still be obtained in the non-PVP zones all the same (with the possible exception of a couple bosses and nameds).

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't feel like Ryzom is obliged to offer all the same rewards to all the different playstyles. I remember having this same discussion with Talk on a different thread, but about a different topic. For me all Ryzom is required to do is offer the sandbox. The different options/paths and the freedom to follow whichever one you want, whenever you like.

It kinda waters down the experience IMO if all paths offer the same rewards. Special tasks and gameplay styles should have unique rewards. Like how you need massive numbers to obtain marauder HA armor. Or how you need pvp to obtain OP mats.

Specially for pvp. If a game wants to have any sort of meaningful pvp it needs to either: a) have an awesome and fun to play combat system (ESO, BDO, etc) or b) have desirable and unique rewards for it. Preferably both, but I have yet to see that game emerge =P

lol totally agree with that. This seems to happen at least 9 out of 10 times. The fact that you cannot self heal effectively in Ryzom, plus the fact that AoE damage has a very limited cap on it, makes Ryzom pvp be _very_ influenced by numbers. The bigger zerg wins, usually (not always, but most of the time).

What most games do to balance faction pvp is do 3 factions instead of 2. That way even if one faction has considerably more numbers, the other 2 can team up temporarily and beat it. It helps to keep the balance. I feel Trytonist should have been this 3rd faction in Ryzom. Marauders more or less served this purpose last year when they teamed up with karas (and neutrals) and helped bring down the kamis, who had been dominant.

But maras have other problems as a faction, their lore, RP, gameplay, etc, which makes it a very restrictive faction and as such usually pretty small. Not only that, but for strict RPers, it makes no sense for maras to help anyone but themselves, so a lot of conflict and diverging opinions there. This is why I feel Trytonist would have been _perfect_ to be this 3rd balancing faction.

While I agree with that sentiment from a gameplay perspective, as a RPer I still prefer to keep within the lore and not have my kami guild for example help the karas today just because it'll be more competitive. But there's still neutral guilds switching sides depending on the battle. Most of the time neutrals stick with karas, true, but it's been known to happen a couple times at least. Or at the very least there's been times when neutrals refrained to help one side due to mercenary contracts and such.

As for "giving back OPs", if I remember correctly when that happened on Aris it was because the CSRs intervened and made the guild give the OPs back. Which I thought was pretty lame tbh, I don't think CSRs should intervene because a guild took over all OPs. Sure it sucks, but for a CSR to step in and force that guild to give the OPs back is to totally take the freedom away from the players.

Now that's an awesome idea! Sounds pretty fun, would be an interesting tournament event ^^

Riki

Equivalent does not equal same. Using something we are familiar with .... if PvP OP offered armillo and a Kitin Invasion defense Op offeredrubbarn... this is separate, not equal but equvalent. Just like the fame system works ... each race is unable to obtain the same fame with each other race but thay all can obtain the same total of 200 fame.

Again, not saying everybody should get the same.... but unless we are going to start payng different subscription rates, no faction, race, whatever should be denied access to an equivalent total or value.

Im not aware of any forced give backs but I was well aware of the voluntary ones.

Oh, ok. Got it now. Yea, I could definitely agree with something like that. That could even promote more interaction and trade between players. =)

(for example, I dislike killing kitins, but I enjoy pvp, so I could trade my armilo for your rubbarn)

Exactly ... I miss the diplomacy aspect of the game. I was once asked to help a guild take an OP about 6 months after merge to which I declined saying smply I have no desire to to do so, The response was ... well how can you get that OP mat if you don't tae the OP ... I said "have you tried asking ?" There are many ways to get what ya want. I would just like it left for everyone to have an option of their choosing and each to have the freedom to pursue that which brings them the most enjoyment.

Well, Fyrosfreddy's remarks were interesting, and I agree to much of it.

Only: The proposals of changing game mechanics are not realistic. Not only the manpower is lacking, but moreover, I fail to see that PvE gameplay has any urgent need to be strengthened by additional rewards. On the other hand, PvP seems to be in urgent need to receive new incentives.

I already wrote that the devaluation especially of rubbarn, armilo, greslin, and egiros OPs below q250 by the post-merge scheme of tool classes is crippling motivation to fight for such OPs.

The overly complicated and partially self-contradictory system of FvF grouping to get PvP points does not help to make PvP more attractive either. I think that best would be to allow to win PvP points equally from any kind of PvP activity, be it OP wars, duels, arena fights, fights in LoU and Nexus, or FvF fights.

Additional challenges like PvP missions might help as well. There was a proposal to shape part of the NPC boss missions in PvP style which I contradicted, not for the reason that I find the idea of winning NPC armors, plans, and craft crystals by PvP a bad one, on contrary. Only I do not see that the existing multi-team challenges could sensibly be used for.

Designing and implementing a PvP mission is not an easy task. There are balance considerations as well as the question how to grant access only to more or less equivalent teams and numbers of opponents. Otherwise the situation like in OP wars may arise again that mainly sheer numbers do count. Freddy finely described the vicious cycle and downward spiral created by such a situation.

Ideas for new PvP challenges and missions, individual, team, and multi-team, might be proposed and developed in the Ryzom forge process. Frankly, due to rare participation and not so much interest in PvP, I lack ideas how to do it. I only see that balance issues will be tricky.

What astonished me in the discussion, was Tumbleweed's point that everything challenging in PvP in Ryzom would be exhausted within a year at most. So far, I frequently heard from PvP interested players that this kind of gameplay would offer more variability and challenge than PvE (including harvesting and crafting), which would be exhausted after short time. Personally, I am playing Ryzom the sixth year, with insane accumulated playtime, widely without PvP, and still haven't the feeling that I have "finished the game".

We can't think about this from our own PoV, but start thinking of the PoV of those who are no longer here. You may not see the need but the people who have left the game do. Ari was made more tolerable for those folks and they came back en masse because the community ignored game mechanics and addressed many of thes issues on their own.

We lost sbout 50% of our player base on arispotle when PvP was introduced. As for the mechanics, they are already theree... we have additional OPs, we have the ranger (Tryton) faction(s) we have kitin mounds. As for the lower end OPs, that mechanism could simply be solved ... every OP has a mechanism whereby it produces a tool of a level +50 over its designation... major work required to bump that ?

Apparently there's time to spend on fishing which will something new and exciting for a week, but we don't have time to address the major precept of the game which is the kitin invasion ?

Occs were introduced in a time of light manpower, so were the advanced Occs .... an Occ that makes cats could easily be changed to take x number of lower level tools and craft higher a level one.

I have been here for over 12 years ("vacations" aside) with my major activity being chatting That's one of the reasons (not using alts ... and cats in their day, other than crafting ... being another) that I still have plenty to do. I have paid close attention to players when saying their goodbyes on why they are leaving. Looking thru glasses, colored by our own worldview, will not address "their" reasons for leaving.

And as indicated previously, there are things which the community controls and things whhich the devs control. Speaking again for those that are no longer here.... both PvP and PvE, there's just as many things in the 1st category as the 2nd..

The fishing is being worked on by one single person, because that person wants to implement fishing... and who knows what other things could evolve out from the fishing?

Maybe there are bigger issues out there. But maybe that person doesn't want to work on the bigger issue. At least that person does work on something, and i would say that every addition is a good sign.

That's fine ... if someone has the desire to do something any number of people might be interested in, that's great and, like the in game apps, every addition is a plus.... but I think the subject of the thread here is what will improve the game for the most amount of people.

The list of official projects seems to include a wide range of proposed changes, some of which will have narrow interest and some which will have wider and even unanimous interest:

* Apartment items
* Equipable (but useless other than show) items - like plush dolls
* Tribal Weapons - the interest here obviously will be much greater than the above two.
* New Area - Again, obvioudsly of great interest

While I very much welcome any the monor additions .... they add some color and nuance to the game .... but they are not "game chnagers". I don't see a conversation between a group of former players going ... Yeah i think I am going to resub to ryzom because NOW they have fishing, plush dolls or more apartment items.

The point of mentioning what is being worked on was in reference to the idea that limited manpower will make certain things impossible. Those last two items, would seem to require much more effort than many of the ideas suggested in this thread.... and many of the ides require no effoirt from the devs ata all but be accomplished by the community itself.

can i use fish for launcher ammo? :D

After reading this part right here, I cannot help but think of a parallel that is happening in another game; a tank-shooter that offers both PvE and PvP. They have two servers, EU and NA, and the PvP population on the NA server is low enough that they tried to boost it with a month-long event that rewards PvP victories. The event has so far backfired pretty spectacularly as some only play PvP halfheartedly, ruining that part of the game for serious PvP-ers, while others resent being forced into PvP and just quit the game entirely.

As a matter of personal taste, I find PvP rather boring so it's definitely not something I would do for fun. I'm not so competitive that I feel the need to compete just for the sake of competing. I fight only when victory gives rewards I actually care about; Sup/OP mats for my fellow Rift Walkers, XP for grinding, or something other than just bragging rights.

Sadly, I have yet to see any game where PvP enthusiasts are respectful of PvE players; Ryzom is as close as I've seen and even it has a bit of elitism from some of the PvP enthusiasts. I think that for PvP to even be viable, you have to fix that. If you can stop PvP from being abused by griefers and keep the PvP-lovers from sneering at those who do not share their love of interpersonal competition, then we can all get along. But like many people, I find it very hard to respect those who don't respect me, and it's a bit hard to respect those that are associated with those who disrespect me, so PvP-ers face an uphill battle.

Just my two dappers worth...