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+1 Tumbleweed, especially for the observation that Ryzom's pvp is very gear-centric and dependent on rngeezus.

If I want pvp, I'd rather play Dota, where you don't have to hunt 3 weeks for your pvp jewels, and then another 6 months mastering all relevant skills.

No stupid 50% dodge chance if you're a master and I'm merely 20 levels below (actual numbers may vary). No restoring someone's life completely with one double heal. No frustration that you can be a master nuker and still fail to kill someone after several attacks in a row because pvp jewels can be balanced to resist/absorb literally everything you throw at them...

I know, I know, unfair comparison across genres. Yet one game fails to deliver entertainment value under this aspect, and one doesn't.

@Tumbleweed:

You make some good points and I agree with many things you said.

I think there's a general consensus that 80% or more of the OPs are pretty much useless at end game level. But one thing the OP system has nailed down pretty well is giving meaningful unique rewards that give even folks who never PVP otherwise the motivation to go and do OP wars because that's the only place where they can get those materials (maga, vedice, rubbarn, etc.). I guess it'd be a matter of implementing a system in which the lower level OPs would still be meaningful.

What I don't entirely agree is about PVP victory being soleley focused on gear. To an extent, yes. Anyone who wants to pvp in an even remotely competitive way needs pvp jewels. And as Mjol pointed out, they kinda break any sort of game balance between melee and magic because it makes magic dps almost useless in small scale pvp.

There's the cheesy tactic of running with nuke enchants hoping you kill your opponent before he can get within melee range of you, but that usually only works against inexperienced meleers. But otherwise pvp jewels kinda kills magic dps.

But other than pvp jewels, what determines victory is countering your opponent's build, not having the best gear. If the guy has a supreme rubbarn boosted vedice 2h axe + marauder NPC armor, he can still be _easily_ defeated by someone going on a fast dodge build using only regular weapons who knows how to optimize their stanzas (spear+buckler in this case).

I completely disagree that combining stanzas doesn't matter much, in fact I'd say that choosing the right gear (note: the right counter, not necessarily the best gear) vs your opponent + making the right stanzas is pretty much the most important thing. In fact, many fights are determined before the beginning, just by looking at which build each player is using and knowing which one is going to win because it's a direct counter to his opponent.

So I suppose player skill comes in knowing this system, using stanzas effectively (it's not as easy as it looks to make the most optimized stanzas for each situation) and which enchants to use to counter your opponent. Now there's room for debate on whether that's boring or not, it's definitely not twitch based combat.

I don't mind the very long grind you need to master the right skills, acquire mats for pvp jewels and gear, etc. That's the nature of MMO's. And tbh, that's what makes Ryzom's gameplay so much more organic than most games. You pvp for in game resources, which then are used to craft the gear that you need to gain an edge in pvp, but the gear is not permanent and will degrade over time, which means you need to pvp more. Clever design if you ask me.

Much better than endless dungeon raids for randomly generated loot, or even "pvp vendors" who sell gear for some sort of a pvp currency. It feels more organic this way.

We can always pvp in the Silan arena, I hear Helgor the Horrible likes to use daggers and madness, and even offers dappers to those that can defeat him :P

I want to add some comments to the (recurrent) discussion about PvP on Ryzom. First about the opening post of Rikukatis.

To be honest, I am not sure whether PvP active players left to a higher extent than non (or casually) PvP active players. We had a large influx of players short after the merge from players who wanted to keep their levels and were curious about the new situation. Speaking about Leanon, I estimate about 5 times more players in the first 3 months after the fusion than
in average the year before (excluding the last weeks before the fusion). These numbers went down. For the former Leanon community, it seems to be more or less the same as before the merge (which was damn small), about the other communities, I do not know with sufficient exactness. But my impression is that they lost more players.

What you omitted or possibly did not recognize so much was a clash, bitter and violent at times, between the differing PvP and roleplay cultures. The french players desperately tried to convince everybody that being tagged were an indispensible feature in roleplay, and did in no way mean that players had to fear to be ganked at every corner. Some players from the other servers (from certain Leanon guilds in particular) enjoyed the opportunity of new ganking prey. As to Lands of Umbra, I can report that the Seves did not indiscriminately slay everybody. I once had a trek through ToT and was ambushed together with my trekkie by some of them and offered the alternative either to fight or to pay (we bargained a bit about the amount, was fun). So they did real PvP oriented roleplay as an outlaw clan, not just brainless ganking. And they participated in complex RP stories without killing every tagged newbie on their way.

The downside of such playstyle for some was e.g. the refusal of rezzing those from other factions, something which has upset especially former Ari players.

These clashes have never really been resolved or reconciled, rather left aside and forgotten, partially compromising here and there. This may have contributed to dwindling PvP participation, at least to some extent.

As to OP fights, several factors participated. The overwhelming superiority of one faction was one of them. OP wars are not for free, and clicking just to be clobbered down is not overly satisfactory. Next is indeed the low value of lower level OP mats. The Devs have severely worsened that situation by the introduction of q50..250 tools, one of the worst mistakes after the fusion. That resulted in rendering all picks below 250 widely useless for full grown diggers (and a digger is fully grown after a few months of playing) and making it costly to impossible for young diggers to harvest in high level areas.

In fact, all Greslin and half of the Egiros picks became more or less worthless that way, and as well all Armilo below 250. This devaluation of OP mats affected 9 OPs (all Greslin, 4/5 Armilo, 1/2 Rubbarn), where 2 of them (the 200) retained some value. This situation in an enlarged community very much forced the concentration to the 250 OPs mainly, and the 200s to some extent.

Before I comment on Tumbleweed's post, some words about Nehrie's post (#6). I disagree that there is a conflict between "the PvPers" and "the crafters". Many of the most experienced crafters are active PvP players themselves, and not few were and are designing equipment especially for PvP purposes (e.g. PvP jewels, but also weapons, OP mat or not, with properties needed for PvP). And even crafters not or not much interested in PvP will usually not deny to craft gear for PvP purposes. If there are people who want to drive others out of the game, report them to the CSR.

I disagree, though, that crafting were useful for PvP only. There is a lot of equipment for PvE, even for special classes of mobs (fire, elec etc. protection jewelry, max pierce or slash weapons and armor etc.) which are important to fight nameds or bosses, or to survive in high level areas.

Now some short comments about Tumbleweed's post (#12). I agree to some of the points, with certain reservations. Yes, the PvP shops are insufficiently stuffed. Yet, to be honest, I am not happy even with the skirt which awakens the desire for more PvP specific armor, best with outstanding properties no crafter is able to build. In a way, Pandora's box has been opened with the NPC boss hunts already, but that opportunity to get full armor is more restricted. I would favor e.g. craft crystals, also below q200 being offered in faction shops (and not for cheap prices) to retain the interdependency of crafting and gameplay. I can't think of many other rewards to be honest, and would like more proposals.

As to many of the other points: Different e.g. to Eve, Ryzom is not a PvP game with some PvE (which cannot sufficiently be played without PvP which made me quit there), but just the other way round. Ryzom started as a harvesting, crafting, exploration and hunting game, where PvP was added later as an element of the game, but not more.

Maybe it is true that the possible combination of actions is wanting compared to some full fledged PvP games. But mind that a too high number of combinations is leading to combinatorial explosion, meaning that linear extension of possibilities is leading to a polynomial increase towards an uncontrollable and unpredictable number of outcomes. I found that situation in GW where actions constantly had to be rebalanced and nerfed because PvP players found new combinations making some classes and builds unplayable, and others invincible. That lead to constant disruptions of PvE gameplay in a game where roughly 90% of the players were playing solely or mainly PvE. I had professional contact with some Arena people and learnt that roughly 60% of the programming/maintenance effort was spent on PvP related stuff, and over 80% of the administrative work (tickets, complaints, conduct). So mind that even things technically feasible may not be possible in a low staffed MMO like Ryzom.

This is a good point. The only gear really needed to pvp are jewels which can be earned running q210 nameds for a week and digging excel q250 mats. It also really depends on what type of pvp you are doing on what quality of armour you need. 1v1 is more reliant on gear whilst 2v2 you can pvp in crap gear (eg. q50 skirt) and still get away with it with good tactics. In OP wars you can even be naked (still with jewels though), just depends on the amount of attention you recieve from the enemy tanks. Tactics > Gear.

Daomei I think you will find the majority of PvPers aren't asking for constant updates of new skills and skill balancing every month.. just some new content would be nice. In all my time playing Ryzom (iirc) the only 'new' addition to pvp has been mara/neutral pvp items which don't change pvp gameplay at all.

bawhahaha... I thought making people cry was the reason for pvp!

LOL, wtf Nitrouss, you're still lurking around mate ^^

Where have you been lately??

I don't do PvP, never quite understood the attraction but in talking to those that do and those that don't, there are several things that have to be recognized. In addition, I am speaking as a player who "grew up" on Arispotle and when speaking about pre-merge activities, obviously things progressed differently on other servers.

1. At least in Ari, the population was well mixed between PvP'ers and PVE'ers but it can not go unrecognized that, at least in NA, Ryzom in its early stage was strictly PvE and, as such with dozens of Pvp oriented titles to choose from, Ryzom became *the* haven for those who where not interested in the Pvp element. When PvP was introduced, many of them left and server population took a major hit.

There's no reason the PvE and pvp contingents can't exists side by side as long as each other respects the others PoV ... as long as that PoV does not include anything non-consesual and forcing one view upon another's.

2. There seem to be two approaches to PvP.

a) We want a challenge and we want both sides to have **reasonably** comparable numbers, skills, gear, etc so that strategies and technique are what invariably wins the day.

b) We don't want a fair challenge, we just want to dominate and have all the goodies to ourselves.

3. As far as the lore / behavior angle, RP is fine but I agree with OP in that the lore should not be use as an excuse to behave badly. Whatever any player decides to do IG, they should not find themselves in a position to be "punished" or ostracized because they don't want to take RP to the extent that others do. And if what you do does not affect another player, then no one should have a problem with it.

4. Let's drop the fallacy that "one does not have to do PvP go in PvP areas in order to have full access to rewards in the game". Those that PvP and those that don't both pay the same subscription fees and therefore should be afforded the same opportunities for rewards.

That's not a stand that there shouldn't be a PvP area for SNs that PvPers can enjoy themselves battling over or that there should not be rewards for PvP points or anything like that.

But there should be an "equal opportunity" for those that are not interested. Why can't Rangers own "Kitin Outposts" near spots where kitin mounds are located which produce rewards similar to what PvP OPs offer ? Why can't Rangers take down KPs or other such PvE activities which offer equivalent rewards to PvP points ?

An area where KPs replaced the Vorax guards would allow PvE'ers to reap similar rewards for a similar effort as PvP'ers do at current SNs ? But what's to stop the PvPers from double dipping ? How about wandering tribes of NPC Tryronist homins which look unfavorably on faction aligned homins ?

It's worth mentioning about super nodes that the same pattern has existed since 2004:

a) something changes and everyone swoons in seeking to obtain dominance in the "new era".

b) a period of not just "getting what ya need but to make sure any potential opponent can't get it" follows and so multiple storage GHs are maintained to hoard these materials.

c) Eventually, having 5,000 sup zun in alternate GHs makes it a bit old, and SNs are left to be dug by a few lone diggers.


6. Sitting on the sidelines what I have observed is that whenever one side dominates, people leave. First, those stuck losing all the time and being cut off from access to "uber" gear that, whether real or imagined, could put them in a position to better compete, get frustrated and go.

Those on the dominant side looking for excitement and a challenge just get bored. They start to leave in even greater numbers. Then when sides get even again, the underdog gets control and after a short period of satisfaction from having "turned the tables", there's nothing left but "Deja Vu all over again"

The most vibrant time (for both PvP and PVE folks) I have spent on Atys was when long time players in large established guilds came to a similar mindset that PvP is only fun when it's a challenge and when the outcome is unknown. As such, neutral guilds would wind up supporting one side in the morning and another in the afternoon. Entire guilds would toss RP aside and "switch factions" because ... '"always winning is almost as bad as always losing". Some guilds would take and OP and then "give it back" a few weeks later.

As an observer, the nicest part of that time was that there was no taunting or baked beans (obscure reference to "B&M Baked Beans") being thrown around in chat, or other unattractive behaviors.

If ya want exciting PvP, one course might be to look at what the players have control over. The community has the power to make it interesting, challenging and exciting. If ya want a fair fight where ya don't know what the outcome is gonna be, there are ways of making it so.

In college we'd do 3 v 3 tournaments, where the losing team got to pick a player from the wining team who would swap teams, then the winner would choose one from the losing team. At the end of the day, most had to stop and think how many they won and how many they lost but it was fun and we were back doing it the next day..

If you're leaving a PvP instance angry at another player / players, it's not fun. That's not going to be fixed by a change in game mechanics or content. Only the community can make that change and part of that includes, RP aside, recognizing a spade as a spade it comes to such unpleasantries.

hi Freddy =)

Totally agree, and I do think Ryzom's pvp fits this bill quite nicely. PVP in Ryzom is pretty much consensual. You either tag up, attend an OP war or go into the pvp enabled PR zones. All the materials you obtain from those zones can still be obtained in the non-PVP zones all the same (with the possible exception of a couple bosses and nameds).

This is the only part I disagree with. I don't feel like Ryzom is obliged to offer all the same rewards to all the different playstyles. I remember having this same discussion with Talk on a different thread, but about a different topic. For me all Ryzom is required to do is offer the sandbox. The different options/paths and the freedom to follow whichever one you want, whenever you like.

It kinda waters down the experience IMO if all paths offer the same rewards. Special tasks and gameplay styles should have unique rewards. Like how you need massive numbers to obtain marauder HA armor. Or how you need pvp to obtain OP mats.

Specially for pvp. If a game wants to have any sort of meaningful pvp it needs to either: a) have an awesome and fun to play combat system (ESO, BDO, etc) or b) have desirable and unique rewards for it. Preferably both, but I have yet to see that game emerge =P

lol totally agree with that. This seems to happen at least 9 out of 10 times. The fact that you cannot self heal effectively in Ryzom, plus the fact that AoE damage has a very limited cap on it, makes Ryzom pvp be _very_ influenced by numbers. The bigger zerg wins, usually (not always, but most of the time).

What most games do to balance faction pvp is do 3 factions instead of 2. That way even if one faction has considerably more numbers, the other 2 can team up temporarily and beat it. It helps to keep the balance. I feel Trytonist should have been this 3rd faction in Ryzom. Marauders more or less served this purpose last year when they teamed up with karas (and neutrals) and helped bring down the kamis, who had been dominant.

But maras have other problems as a faction, their lore, RP, gameplay, etc, which makes it a very restrictive faction and as such usually pretty small. Not only that, but for strict RPers, it makes no sense for maras to help anyone but themselves, so a lot of conflict and diverging opinions there. This is why I feel Trytonist would have been _perfect_ to be this 3rd balancing faction.

While I agree with that sentiment from a gameplay perspective, as a RPer I still prefer to keep within the lore and not have my kami guild for example help the karas today just because it'll be more competitive. But there's still neutral guilds switching sides depending on the battle. Most of the time neutrals stick with karas, true, but it's been known to happen a couple times at least. Or at the very least there's been times when neutrals refrained to help one side due to mercenary contracts and such.

As for "giving back OPs", if I remember correctly when that happened on Aris it was because the CSRs intervened and made the guild give the OPs back. Which I thought was pretty lame tbh, I don't think CSRs should intervene because a guild took over all OPs. Sure it sucks, but for a CSR to step in and force that guild to give the OPs back is to totally take the freedom away from the players.

Now that's an awesome idea! Sounds pretty fun, would be an interesting tournament event ^^

Riki

Equivalent does not equal same. Using something we are familiar with .... if PvP OP offered armillo and a Kitin Invasion defense Op offeredrubbarn... this is separate, not equal but equvalent. Just like the fame system works ... each race is unable to obtain the same fame with each other race but thay all can obtain the same total of 200 fame.

Again, not saying everybody should get the same.... but unless we are going to start payng different subscription rates, no faction, race, whatever should be denied access to an equivalent total or value.

Im not aware of any forced give backs but I was well aware of the voluntary ones.

Oh, ok. Got it now. Yea, I could definitely agree with something like that. That could even promote more interaction and trade between players. =)

(for example, I dislike killing kitins, but I enjoy pvp, so I could trade my armilo for your rubbarn)

Exactly ... I miss the diplomacy aspect of the game. I was once asked to help a guild take an OP about 6 months after merge to which I declined saying smply I have no desire to to do so, The response was ... well how can you get that OP mat if you don't tae the OP ... I said "have you tried asking ?" There are many ways to get what ya want. I would just like it left for everyone to have an option of their choosing and each to have the freedom to pursue that which brings them the most enjoyment.

Well, Fyrosfreddy's remarks were interesting, and I agree to much of it.

Only: The proposals of changing game mechanics are not realistic. Not only the manpower is lacking, but moreover, I fail to see that PvE gameplay has any urgent need to be strengthened by additional rewards. On the other hand, PvP seems to be in urgent need to receive new incentives.

I already wrote that the devaluation especially of rubbarn, armilo, greslin, and egiros OPs below q250 by the post-merge scheme of tool classes is crippling motivation to fight for such OPs.

The overly complicated and partially self-contradictory system of FvF grouping to get PvP points does not help to make PvP more attractive either. I think that best would be to allow to win PvP points equally from any kind of PvP activity, be it OP wars, duels, arena fights, fights in LoU and Nexus, or FvF fights.

Additional challenges like PvP missions might help as well. There was a proposal to shape part of the NPC boss missions in PvP style which I contradicted, not for the reason that I find the idea of winning NPC armors, plans, and craft crystals by PvP a bad one, on contrary. Only I do not see that the existing multi-team challenges could sensibly be used for.

Designing and implementing a PvP mission is not an easy task. There are balance considerations as well as the question how to grant access only to more or less equivalent teams and numbers of opponents. Otherwise the situation like in OP wars may arise again that mainly sheer numbers do count. Freddy finely described the vicious cycle and downward spiral created by such a situation.

Ideas for new PvP challenges and missions, individual, team, and multi-team, might be proposed and developed in the Ryzom forge process. Frankly, due to rare participation and not so much interest in PvP, I lack ideas how to do it. I only see that balance issues will be tricky.

What astonished me in the discussion, was Tumbleweed's point that everything challenging in PvP in Ryzom would be exhausted within a year at most. So far, I frequently heard from PvP interested players that this kind of gameplay would offer more variability and challenge than PvE (including harvesting and crafting), which would be exhausted after short time. Personally, I am playing Ryzom the sixth year, with insane accumulated playtime, widely without PvP, and still haven't the feeling that I have "finished the game".

We can't think about this from our own PoV, but start thinking of the PoV of those who are no longer here. You may not see the need but the people who have left the game do. Ari was made more tolerable for those folks and they came back en masse because the community ignored game mechanics and addressed many of thes issues on their own.

We lost sbout 50% of our player base on arispotle when PvP was introduced. As for the mechanics, they are already theree... we have additional OPs, we have the ranger (Tryton) faction(s) we have kitin mounds. As for the lower end OPs, that mechanism could simply be solved ... every OP has a mechanism whereby it produces a tool of a level +50 over its designation... major work required to bump that ?

Apparently there's time to spend on fishing which will something new and exciting for a week, but we don't have time to address the major precept of the game which is the kitin invasion ?

Occs were introduced in a time of light manpower, so were the advanced Occs .... an Occ that makes cats could easily be changed to take x number of lower level tools and craft higher a level one.

I have been here for over 12 years ("vacations" aside) with my major activity being chatting That's one of the reasons (not using alts ... and cats in their day, other than crafting ... being another) that I still have plenty to do. I have paid close attention to players when saying their goodbyes on why they are leaving. Looking thru glasses, colored by our own worldview, will not address "their" reasons for leaving.

And as indicated previously, there are things which the community controls and things whhich the devs control. Speaking again for those that are no longer here.... both PvP and PvE, there's just as many things in the 1st category as the 2nd..