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I started playing Ryzom 6-7 years ago on Arispotle. I took a long break from the game because of work and returned at the end of 2014, after the server merge.

Since pvp (coupled with RP) has been my main activity and interest in MMO's, I was very excited when I returned to game post-merge to see all the pvp activity going on. Supernodes were always fiercely disputed, a lot of tagged pvp and 2x2 matches going on on a semi-daily basis, marauder guilds initiating "city invasions", ganking in PR by certain maras, etc. All that had made me very excited about the game again.

For me the grinding of skills, harvesting of sup materials and crafting of "uber" gear has always been a means to an end, and not the goal itself. The goal was to arm myself better for pvp and be able to face different situations and counter different builds. And I believe that holds true for many other pvpers as well.

But slowly I saw pvp dwindle more and more and a good portion of pvpers (if not the majority) leave the game. It has come to a point where the game went on for _months_ without a single OP war, tagged pvp may happen sporadically, but not nearly as frequently. And when it does happen it's always staged and consentual.

Now why is that?

I know the whole thing of kamis dominating OP wars for 2 years made a lot of people upset, and justifiably so. But the introduction of mara as a 3rd faction and their subsequent teaming up with karas made it up for that by toppling the dominating faction (as much as that brought more controversy and complaints over lore and rp reasons, but whatever). Besides, even if kamis dominated OP wars due to sheer numbers, supernodes were still heavily disputed and many times maras won there due to the fact they were better organized and more skilled in small scale pvp. And it seems to me the stagnation of pvp happened mostly _after_ that.

It seems to me that in a typical "double edge" fashion, exactly what makes Ryzom's community more friendly and welcoming than most, also makes pvp shunned and stagnant.

People seem to have a lot of trouble differentiating between pvp used as a game / rp mechanic within the confines of a fictional world versus a personal insult to the player behind the screen.

OPs are purely there as a pvp mechanic, an end game content. And yet you see this air of almost outrage when a faction "dares" to attack an OP in enemy lands. It's as if kamis are supposed to own vedice 250 and karas are supposed to own maga 250 forever. Just as examples. Or alternatively, guilds who have owned certain OPs for very long and just feel like it belongs to them.

I think there should be some kind of mechanism in place which made it easier for a smaller team or guild to be able to take an OP. Virg had a thread proposal for that some time ago, I won't bother digging it up now, but just something to make taking an OP easier, make OP wars faster and OP ownership more transient.

Moreover, ganking in PR (outside of SNs) is seriously looked down by community members as trolling, disgusting behavior, etc etc. But that's the whole purpose of the PVP PR zones!! To make it dangerous, to give some more pvp content to the game. Those zones can be completely avoided, you have the choice to go there or not, and yet someone is shunned if he ganks members of the opposing faction there.

The same for tagged pvp, which baffles me even more. People who are tagged consent to participate in pvp, and yet there is this "unwritten" rule and feel that you're a bad player and a bad guy if you attack another tagged player without consent. I have seen so much arguing over being attacked tagged while grinding, afk, etc. In my opinion that mindset just helps to kill pvp even more in this game. I run into a tagged player and I'm thinking to myself "oh I shouldn't attack him, he's a friend, he's gonna get offended if I jump him". But that totally ruins the element of surprise, danger and excitment that should come along with being tagged. That you can be attacked any time and must be ready to defend yourself on a moment's notice. And if you get killed while afk, come back and go hunt the offender! Or just afk in a safe zone =P

I want Seve Noire back, sweeping the Prime Roots and killing everyone that crosses their path! I want to feel the real danger of being tagged while grinding in Void. Any moment 4 heavily armed Pandas may jump me. And that's just not in game anymore, or at least not in any considerable amount. And it used to be before ...

Unlike Virg I don't think the death of PVP will mean the death of Ryzom. There's plenty of loyal players who couldn't care any less about it. However I think Ryzom has a very interesting and very organic setup for PVP, and it's just not being used at all. And it feels like a waste to me.

*throws a yubo at the overgrown smurf*

A lot of what you say in this post is spot on. Unfortunately, speaking from past experiences, I don't think much can be done to ammend this. Many players look down their noses at PvP and when ideas are made that could encourage PvP there is the usual crying that if PvP gets something new then PvE should get it as well (as if PvE doesn't have enough). These ideas are then not implemented and no progress is made.

Right now the only thing I believe that will cause a true revival of PvP in ryzom is the return of many PvP players who have left. Speaking as one of those players who has considered returning, new content is really what would make me come back (that opinion is also reflected by many other absent players). From what I have seen the devs are making great progress and working towards producing lots of new PvE content but, to my knowledge, no PvP content.

Personally, if the devs want to talk to me about new possible content I am happy to talk and have lots of ideas, but I am done wasting time and effort in both making new ideas for the forums and attempting to use ARK.

I don't care a whole lot for pvp, but sometimes maybe in op fights its fun, but otherwise, what you say is pretty much correct Riku.

As for my thoughts:
If you are in a pvp area, expect to get killed and BE PREPARED for it and don't whine when it happens! Lore wise, it should be an oposing faction , (not someone on your side ofc).
If you are tagged, EXPECT TO BE ATTACKED, or don't tag up! And don't whine about it!

I do not have anything to add to your post, Riku, as I could not agree more.

OP battles are way too long. 2 or more hours at the op, and a range weapon user can spend another 2 or more hours gathering mats and trekking packers.

I don't really understand the gvg regions. There is no reward system, in fact your normal pvp points don't work there. So aside from when super nodes refill why would a level 250 player need to run around a q100-150 region ganking level 100 diggers? It would make a little more sense if a q250 region was a pvp zone, but not sure if that would add much this late in the game, and many non-pvpers would complain.

Finally, even if there were more active pvp players, it's still just 1v1 or 3v3 etc. Fun, but no real objective other than pvp points or a wipe.

I researched this game on the internet before I ever came to play. My old game had virtually died. I wanted something similar.

So I came to this game to be a marauder and pvper.

That has made my life very hard here.

I don't understand the point of all this crafting if not to pvp. It is the pvpers who want the gear. Who can protect in PR. Who can get the guild OPs.

Yet over and over I am treated as though I am some kind of a monster because I pvp.

There is a little clique in this game that does everything they can to drive out pvpers and anyone who does not obey them. That is what I think is ruining Ryzom.

But you can't do anything to them. They sit in their little GHs crochetting doilies and whispering behind people's backs.

I sincerely believe these crafters would destroy their gear before selling it for dappers or mats or crystals if pvper is going to use it.

The only thing I see to do is make everything myself as much as possible. And put them ALL on ignore.

Otherwise the attitude of non-pvp, even though pvp is advertised on the website, will eventually ruin Ryzom for everyone except the crafters.

Thats why we need new content directed towards PvP ^^

Solution: PvP Fishing.

huhu :-)

I guess in an ideal world you'd also get PVP points for killing players in GVG/PVP zones (PR, Nexus), and on top of that you'd have a broader selection of valuable stuff to buy with your PVP points as well. Such as a full armor set instead of just skirt. Or heck, maybe even be able to buy OP mats or marauder LA pieces for example. That'd encourage people to PVP outside of OP wars. BUT... the reason why that wouldn't work is because we all know how easy it is to exploit the system and use an alt or a friend from another faction to just grind those pvp points easily without any real need for pvp.

As for your other comment, there are other reasons to PVP in PR outside of supernodes as well. Bosses for example. There's a few valuable bosses and nameds in the q200 zones there.

But yea, unfortunaly it might be impossible at this point to change the system and allow people to gain PVP points from killing enemies in GVG zones. Otherwise that'd give extra incentive.

We can sit here and determine many ways to fix the pvp system. I am sure the older players know more ways than me.

But if the "Powers that Be" are happy with the way pvp is there will be no change.

I believe they are trying to balance the crafters with the pvpers.

Maybe they are just waiting for the pvpers to go away and go back to not having pvp at all.

Nehrie

Most of the points stated by the author are valid and have been discussed many times both in this forum and in Ideas section.

Only to me PvP stagnation has nothing or very little to do with community disapproval.

Motivation for PvP can be either a reward or the PvP process itself, or both. Let's evaluate what do we have in Ryzom.

Rewards:

1) A shield, a skirt and a pick for tagged PvP. Good enough, but it's just a handful compared to PvP rewards in other games, i. e. faction stuff in Eve. To people who got used to PvP shops with say 50 entries, this looks like a joke. A bad one.

2) SN stuff for fights over supernodes. Seems OK to me.

3) OP stuff for wins in OP battles. Quality varies from utter trash (I'm looking at you, greslin!) to quite useful things. Some prestige too - i. e. an established guild have to own an OP, and better a good one.

That's it. Once you have collected PvP shop items, supreme/vedice/maga/tekorn/boosted gear, and your guild owns an OP - you are done with PvP for rewards. There are no more levels, like looting, or fighting over territories, or defending something that you have built, like a castle. This sort of motivation is over. What is left is

Process:

1) Variety of playstyles, or let's call them archetypes is scarce - you can either be a nuker, healer or debuffer, heavy or light melee, or a gunner. There is little to none difference between OA or DA caster, or between warrior with a pike and warrior with an axe. Compare that to many different classes in games like DAoC, Lineage or Anarchy Online, or 200+ combat ships in Eve.

2) Variety of actions is also scarce. Half of them is either irrelevant or plain useless in PvP. Same goes for spells.

3) Preparation for PvP - feel free to argue that, but to me PvP in Ryzom is very gear-centered. Gear comes first, random numbers second, player's skill third. Combining stanzas could be a game of itself, but doesn't add much, because see # 2.

3) The process of PvP itself is repetetive and monotonous - hit action, shoot enchant, hit aura, repeat, watch your and opponent's HP bars go down. Very exciting.

4) Outposts - the author has already stated it: sheer numbers win, there is no way for a small guild or alliance to claim an OP on their own, apart from attacks against inactive guilds. Due to OP materials being imbalanced there is only a few popular OP's getting declared all the time. It's always Westgrove/Ginti/Loria/Woodburns like a carousel, throw in BB or EI and you are done. Fighting on the same landscapes doesn't add to variety.

Resuming: an active PvP player can get all the rewards approximately within a year of playing, and get bored with the process even earlier. Once they done with both PvP motivations they quit. Hence the stagnation as the number of incoming new PvP players seems lesser, than the number of bored vets quitting for good. Again, they quit not because of "disapproval" (like they care if their playstyle is approved or not) but because they have no motivations to stay and other MMO's offer much more to them.

What can be done about that? In my opinion - stuffing PvP shopes with new gear, weapons and materials; rebalance of old stanzas and adding new ones; rebalance or revamp of OP mechanics; rebalance of OP materials. That's the minimum, I'm not even talking about next level of rewards. Sounds good, but not with current dev team (no offense here) and not in current state of the game. So the answer is "nothing".

I am looking at myself. What can I do to make a difference in the current pvp situation? Are there things I can do without waiting for a dev to rewrite code?

Personally, I don't understand the current pvp. Are you ready? Are you sure you're ready.

Also, I don't see picking on helpless players as honorable. For me as a Master to kill a level 50 noob does not seem honorable. I might do that to someone that was mouthy just to wake them up but basically not honorable.

So in PR if I gain nothing... No pvp points, no loot, no territory... What is the point unless we're fighting over resources? I actually need some of those people to tell me information about how to dig in PR. Why would I want to run around and just randomly kill a bunch of level 50 noobs over and over? That is how killing people who are digging in focus gear strikes me.

Now attacking people standing in front of FH stables with their tags on. If you're big enough and brave enough to stand there with your tags on don't cry you're afk.

Nehrie

+1. Sadly many of the things you have mentioned I have made forum posts on. Always the same old characters arguing tooth and nail against, waffling on and on diverting the posts away from the original topic. Its a shame because if the community could get behind an idea (and look past their own self-interests) there might be a chance of some improvement.

Changing the OP mechanics isn't impossible from the coding part... but i'm not sure WG would accept to change them at all