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#68 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago [en] 

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Virg

3. Camp Welcomer: You will agree with everything about this except 1 simple fact: I want part of the rewards to be a generic 1h sword and dagger plans. Yes, I hear people yelping already- "but everyone deserves access to the same things!!" Wrong... very wrong. Marauders can't access city gen plans so why should people be able to access marauder stuff? If you want the plans.. go marauder! If we want the other generic plans we have to leave marauder. Its exactly the same thing. If you'd like to disagree with me using this argument then please explain how I, as a marauder, can get the generic craft plans located in cities?

As mentioned above, yes we can. :P I did to get long sword and 2 hand mace.  You do get a little fame boost with that civ but it is very small.  If mara worked the same with a negligible fame nerf at the point one gets the generic plans this wouldn't be an issue.  I also think generic spear would be better. Pretty sure Tixi told me that it exists and from a crafter's point of view I think a generic spear plan is missed more than 1-hand sword or dagger.

Last edited by Lacuna (9 years ago)

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#69 Added by Mjollren 9 years ago [en] 

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Virg
3. Camp Welcomer: You will agree with everything about this except 1 simple fact: I want part of the rewards to be a generic 1h sword and dagger plans. Yes, I hear people yelping already- "but everyone deserves access to the same things!!" Wrong... very wrong. Marauders can't access city gen plans so why should people be able to access marauder stuff? If you want the plans.. go marauder! If we want the other generic plans we have to leave marauder. Its exactly the same thing. If you'd like to disagree with me using this argument then please explain how I, as a marauder, can get the generic craft plans located in cities?

Everyone starts as a neutral, with access to all 4 generic plans from the nation welcomers. Moreover, the missions are incredibly easy to do, but for a small investment on your part (I think you are required to craft a few things of your own).

However, going marauder and getting out of marauder is a rather big time commitment. If you choose to go marauder right off the bat, I would say it's on you. You willingly forego access to a number of things, including but not limited to rites (+crafted item durability, +sap, +hp, +focus x2) and welcomer missions.

When compared, the tasks are imbalanced.

On one hand, someone who wishes to be anything but marauder would have to lower their fame, perform the marauder rite, AND raise their fame again, all for one generic plan. On the other hand, a future marauder only needs to wait a while until they complete the rites and missions that give them bonuses.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Mjollren (9 years ago)

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#70 Added by Virg 9 years ago [en] 

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@Bittty
I thought you were neutrally aligned Bittty? Therefore how would you know if a Kami drill won't produce Kami mats for a Kara guild?

@Lacuna
Ops sorry I wasn't aware that we still could. Although guard aggro makes the task a little harder than most? As for generic weapon plans I see an awful lot more marauders using 1h swords and daggers than I do using spears. This is something that marauders can decide when the time comes- as long as we are allowed the plans in the first place.

@Mjollren
Some have chosen to go marauder right off the bat and I wouldn't say its at all on them. Others have gone other paths right off the bat but they still get access to rites etc.

I have realised now I have put my point across wrongly so changing my stance somewhat:

Every alignment does have game implications and as you pointed out, particularly with rites. Marauders are affected more heavily by this as we are missing a lot of things ourselves. To help balance the scales somewhat I believe we should get unique access to generic generic plans. In 2 years time from now we definitely won't have an equal footing on rites etc- heck civs are getting more rites designed now even when marauders have none. If people want the plans then they can always go marauder similar to if it want all the rites we have to grind up all our fames.

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#71 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago [en] 

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Mjollren
Virg
3. Camp Welcomer: You will agree with everything about this except 1 simple fact: I want part of the rewards to be a generic 1h sword and dagger plans. Yes, I hear people yelping already- "but everyone deserves access to the same things!!" Wrong... very wrong. Marauders can't access city gen plans so why should people be able to access marauder stuff? If you want the plans.. go marauder! If we want the other generic plans we have to leave marauder. Its exactly the same thing. If you'd like to disagree with me using this argument then please explain how I, as a marauder, can get the generic craft plans located in cities?

Everyone starts as a neutral, with access to all 4 generic plans from the nation welcomers. Moreover, the missions are incredibly easy to do, but for a small investment on your part (I think you are required to craft a few things of your own).

However, going marauder and getting out of marauder is a rather big time commitment. If you choose to go marauder right off the bat, I would say it's on you. You willingly forego access to a number of things, including but not limited to rites (+crafted item durability, +sap, +hp, +focus x2) and welcomer missions.

When compared, the tasks are imbalanced.

On one hand, someone who wishes to be anything but marauder would have to lower their fame, perform the marauder rite, AND raise their fame again, all for one generic plan. On the other hand, a future marauder only needs to wait a while until they complete the rites and missions that give them bonuses.

For the third time: you can do welcomer missions as Mara.  Logically, therefore, you will be able to do welcomer missions from the Camp Welcomer without being Mara. The whole point of which would be that you do as a prelude to to the rite!  No need to turn Mara! If there was a generic plan you might need to lose a little fame, if it is the same as the civ welcomer missions. Making this as fair as any gaining generic plan.  Lacuna had to gain fame with Fyros and Matis to gain the plans something she found repulsive. Rites are something else. Virg is not asking for a reward as a rite.

Last edited by Lacuna (9 years ago)

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#72 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual 

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@Virg  From when I was -100 Matis I think there is a fame cut off where the welcomer wont speak to you. I think it is fame not being mara that makes them not speak.  But you can't have all in Ryzom. I would let the Camp Welcomer talk to everyone that wasn't aligned to Kami or Kara or a Civ.  This would allow anyone to get the generic plan and then just realign.  You may say that is harsh if you are max fame for Civ or Riligion and have to unalign to get plan: suck it up:P Like many I have had to grind fame up and down multiple times.

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#73 Added by Virg 9 years ago [en] 

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@Lacuna
So how about the marauder camp welcomer has two different mission sets:

1. For neutrals (with -10 fame in all?) to give a taste of what maruders are about. Activities would have to involve things out of the camp and the rewards to be generic plans?

2. For newly joined marauders involving camp stuff and more difficult tasks.

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#74 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago [en] 

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Virg
@Lacuna
So how about the marauder camp welcomer has two different mission sets:

1. For neutrals (with -10 fame in all?) to give a taste of what maruders are about. Activities would have to involve things out of the camp and the rewards to be generic plans?

2. For newly joined marauders involving camp stuff and more difficult tasks.


1.  Yes.  But make is just that you have to be civ and relgion neutral - this stops the objection of a long fame grind up and down.  Make it so fame was nerfed negligible for this part.  Ofc if you have max fame, you do have to make the choice the: do I want plan/s, and is it worth the effort of getting them. But is was your choice to go for max fame.  Been there and done that for getting Matis craft plans after Gasket encouraged me to drink too mcuh wine and nerf Matis fame to -100 while I was Kami :P

2. Maybe better to make it for those who want to continue on to do the rite? This would be more in fitting for what the Camp Welcomer is meant to be there for.  This stage would be the part that droppped fame significantly, so wouldnt be an issue for those just wanting to con plans out of Welcomer.  Clicking to remounce civs is dull.  But missions to nerf fame would be better, maybe some repeatable missions.

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#75 Added by Virg 9 years ago [en] 

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@Lacuna

Due to our guards though people can't properly be 'welcomed' into the camp until they actually are a marauder. So surely the 2nd thread of missions would work best for players who are actually marauders? Of course also some mundane stuff telling people where everything is in the camp etc.

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#76 Added by Bitttymacod 9 years ago [en] 

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Virg
@Bittty
I thought you were neutrally aligned Bittty? Therefore how would you know if a Kami drill won't produce Kami mats for a Kara guild?

About the drills:  I wasn't always neutral and I wasn't always Bittty.  For some time I was HO/GL of a Tryker/Karavan guild with two (then one) OPs.  (This was on Arispotle pre-merge.)  Before that I was my father (a Matis) and in several Kami guilds and Karavan guilds. 

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#77 Added by Virg 9 years ago [en] 

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Ah fair enough. Well then no need to add restrictions to kami/kara- just to make sure they are inplace for marauder/neutral mats as well.

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#78 Added by Daomei 9 years ago [en] 

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Just a remark to the welcomer craft Mission: All welcomer missions so far have a fame threshold of -67, as far as I know. I would it deem fair to have the marauder welcomer threshold at 67, not -10 or so. Interesting fame lowering missions should be publicly available in the same way, as with all welcomers.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#79 Added by Virg 9 years ago [en] 

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They are a marauder camp welcomer not a neutral camp welcomer.. No marauder is going to accept anyone showing positive affiliations with any religious or government whackjob :) Accepting neutrals is a big push already.

0 is the maximum threshold I would deem appropriate. -10 is more like it and lowering fames from 0 to -10 is actually quite quick.

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#80 Added by Daomei 9 years ago [en] 

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Tribe camps also are not "neutral camps". Anyway, the welcomer accepts anybody who makes it alive to her/him to obtain a mission.

I am against privileges for marauders only, and why should their welcomer act differently towards homins of opposite alignment than any other welcomer? Only to reserve a generic weapon to those with all alignments negative? There is no craft plan reserved to homins with all alignments greater or equal +10, so there is no point for.

Last edited by Daomei (9 years ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#81 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual 

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If there was a generic plan as a reward, I think Daomei makes a valid point.  It would be consistant and fair.  If there is no generic plan, then a negative for all fames would appropriate.  I think generic spear and sword plans would be best reward, a generic dagger one would be pointless :P

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#82 Added by Virg 9 years ago [en] 

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Privaleges for marauders only... please don't make my laugh. We have no rites, missions, occupations- heck we deserve some tlc. We are far from 'privalged' thanks.

A marauder camp welcomer should act differently to other city welcomers because guess what? We are different. Our guards are different to other guards. Our merchants are different to other merchants. Our civ fame requirements are different to other alligned players civ requirements. You make the mistake of looking at this by grouping together camp welcomers. Instead you should view it from the view of 'marauder' and 'not marauder'.

I think 0 is perfectly fair and -10 is more in tuned with marauders.

Lacuna daggers are the bestestest weapon around :P 1h sword+dagger is also an awesome combo :3

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