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#45 Added by Daomei 9 years ago [en] 

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Hm, I still do not buy that concept of a nation, and for my taste, the definition of a nation as imagined community is bit too postmodern and arbitrary. I prefer more down-to-earth views like those of Wallerstein and others in traditions of Marx or Weber. A nation is not only a cultural and traditional, but even more a socio-economic and legal entity. Of course, atysian societies and communities are not really comparable, but even marauders have to eat, to clothe, to build weapons and tools etc., imagined community does not help so much with it. And in real nations, a common legal system, rules of residence, property rights and their limits etc. are fundamentals which are definitely not imagined.

And no, I categorically deny the concept of a 'savage' for the marauders, it does not fit at all. They are violent, and in some of their views fanatic, but resembling ways more the conquistadores rather than any south american tribe in their attitude to the people in the new territories.

I agree that the marauders created, to some extent, a common culture, at least a language of their own. Beneath that, I fail to see that they are really one people. Every clan is a community in its own right, every marauder inside these boundaries a lawmaker of her/his own, entitled to act how she likes as long as she has the strength to defend that against anybody contesting it. So, there is no common law for marauders, only some rules of customary behaviour. And I saw marauder clans acting very differently, some were in drug trafficking, some in employing enslavement, some were in rather close communication with non marauder homins.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#46 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual 

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Imagined community is a concept to help explain why people think they belong to group, Daomei.  Why does someone living in Stuttgart and someone in New York still identify as German.  Why do they think they share ancestry, etc. Religions are also imagined comunities. People will never meet, indeed they may be dead for hundreds if not thousands of years, but they are seen as belonging.  You are being very materialistic in your ideas.  The idea of imagined communities does not preclude or negate Marx or Weber.  It can be used to compliment them. Imagined communities ARE REAL.  Imagined is not apposed to 'real' but face-to-face.  It is how people who may never meet can think they belong to a group. 

Daomei I give up.  I could explain this too you over a bottle of wine, but not over the forums.

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#47 Added by Binarabi 9 years ago [en] 

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But if they are seen as "the other" then in outsider's eyes they are homogeneous, but within their own "group" they may differ

On reflection I think that we should keep the marauder "faction", being as I think there should be a place for homins who do not agree with either Karavan or Kami and who want to flex their muscles in fighting and make choices about what they do, rather than toe-the-party-line in other "factions"

Also I love the rp of Lacuna when she sells wonderful crafted gear in the bazaar and, as a Tryker who has been told tales of slavery under the Matis, utterly agree with the idea of killing all Matis (hmm, maybe not quite all - but the particularly pompous ones) and keeping males in their place - preferably barefoot and in the kitchen

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Binarabi
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. (Bill Hicks)

#48 Added by Daomei 9 years ago [en] 

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Lacuna, just to say one thing: this "I give up" is hurting a bit, ok it may be my fault. When I contradict or do not share your descriptions, it does not mean that they are wrong, bad, or invalid. I have read and reflected everything of your arguments, and consider them worthy to think about, and if they reflect the self-perception of marauder players, so be it. It is the job and the right of marauder players to shape their description and community culture.

Yet I would like to come back and down to the practical issues. Would occupations, and the possibility to hand them in to some NPC for faction (or nation or whatever) points really make so much of a difference? I do not think that anybody argues that lack of acceptance of marauders stem from these missing features.

Further on, when listening to Nerwane, and to some extent Bones, one may get the impression that the marauder faction is still awfully incomplete. Could you describe what, besides the occupations/NH equivalent stuff, is still missing?

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#49 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual 

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Daomei I apologise, I did not mean that. I just meant the frustration of discussing abstract concepts is being lost in translation and we are misunderstanding what eachother means and talking at cross purposes a lot. I simply meant that I could explain what I meant in person.

1) A permanent city: the camp is meant to be temparary.
2) A respawn point in camp.
3) An effective way of dropping fame that is not simply clicking a mouse to renounce fame over and over.  Missions to kill guards would be good.  This would be a good counterpoint for missions to help people leave mara.
4) A series of missions similar to City Welcomers that would allow mara to lose a little fame just as homins gain a little for civs ones.  But make them really hard.  It would also be nice to have a generic spear plan as a reward. I think I was told that one exists but is no implemented.
5)Mara rite needs fixing.

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#50 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual 

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As to the Occs, yes doing having the higher ones in camp would help. It would also stop mara going to cities and all the aggro that that causes.  There is no rp reason for us not having them.

Yes an occ to gain fps, if it was fun, HARD. Perferably harder than Butcher.  But I dont think we should get any dappers from it, just faction points.  Not having them doesnt make the game harder, it just makes people make alts.  Having them but making them evil to complete would make game better for us. We want hard. We just don't want incomplete.

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#51 Added by Nerwane 9 years ago [fr] 

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6) que les marchands du camp mara nous fassent payer ou achètent inversement proportionnels aux fames .. plus on est mara, plus on paye cher à NOTRE marchand.. dingo ça ^^

(c'est pas vraiment une priorité^^ mais c'est une honte!! si encore on pouvait lui arracher la tête de temps en temps.. huhu)

#52 Added by Rikutatis 9 years ago [en] 

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Lacuna
3) An effective way of dropping fame that is not simply clicking a mouse to renounce fame over and over. Missions to kill guards would be good. This would be a good counterpoint for missions to help people leave mara.

Virg used to organize raids on racial cities with a team of maras tagged for pvp to kill the guards there and quickly lower their fame with that race. Then the opposing faction there would tag and try to fight them off. Those were pretty fun events. ^^
Lacuna
Yes an occ to gain fps, if it was fun, HARD. Perferably harder than Butcher.  But I dont think we should get any dappers from it, just faction points.  Not having them doesnt make the game harder, it just makes people make alts.  Having them but making them evil to complete would make game better for us. We want hard. We just don't want incomplete.

Maybe some craft/hunt missions to gain dappers as well? I was told there isn't anything like that in the camp right? Makes more sense than using alts to get dappers. Sure there's tribes, but still would be nice to have an in-house option to make dappers as well.

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#53 Added by Rikutatis 9 years ago [en] 

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Tamarea

The forum is a place to exchange thoughts and of debate, in a good atmosphere for discussions. Animosity and agressive behavior against Ryzom staff is not something that is tolerated. Marauder players have the chance to have a volunteer who is dedicated and responsible for Marauders, and who spends all of his free time to work for them. He has explained during an OOC meeting, what he and some Ryzom teams are working on together for Marauders, and nearly everything that has been requested on the forums by players, is exactly what he stated was in progress with the team at in his OOC meeting. Such disrespectful comments from a part of the community are just unfair and demotivating for all the staff and are unacceptable.

Sorry Tamarea, I didn't know about this OOC meeting. Just wanted to discuss with other players what they think about the future of the marauder faction and how they fit in the game. =)

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#54 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual 

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@Rikutatis That is a good option but something for players to do solo or in small team that suits their game time would be good too.  I suppose a way to get dappers would be good.  I think your idea would maybe better if it was open to all players.  Perhaps Ranger npcs outwith of cities could give missions to kill kitin, they harder the mob the more dappers.    I think Talkirc proposed something like this.  Could let players earn a lot of dappers if they were willing to invest all their time doing it.

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#55 Added by Daomei 9 years ago [en] 

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Lacuna
Daomei I apologise ..
Thanks, no offense taken.
1) A permanent city: the camp is meant to be temporary.
Honestly, I do not understand that. I consider the camp a bridgehead for projecting marauder power into the new territories, so it may be considered temporary to those who want to conquer the world. But it seems not logical for me that marauders want a fixed city. Aren't they nomadic?

In fact, if once my craziest dreams would become real, playable ancient lands as new territories, with large marauder (free PvP) regions, a marauder capital there would make sense. Personally, I could imagine that bit alike the wandering capital of the medieval Mongols, with the task to find where it is located every given day or season (mind that the wandering palace was a two or three story structure, not just some dusty tent ;)).
2) A respawn point in camp.
Agreed. I would suggest a respawn point in or directly beneath every existing and future arena.
3) An effective way of dropping fame that is not simply clicking a mouse to renounce fame over and over.  Missions to kill guards would be good.  This would be a good counterpoint for missions to help people leave mara.
Agreed, that clicking down fame is boring, and too easy.
4) A series of missions similar to City Welcomers that would allow mara to lose a little fame just as homins gain a little for civs ones.  But make them really hard.  It would also be nice to have a generic spear plan as a reward. I think I was told that one exists but is no implemented.
To be honest, I despise the idea of reserving any crafting ability to a single faction, nation, or other closed group of players. Otherwise, agreed, also in case that such weapon may be obtained by other means, too.
5)Mara rite needs fixing.
I do not know about, but good luck for you and good success for Gaueko
6) [from Nerwane, bug fix of stupid merchants]
agreed of course

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Daomei (9 years ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#56 Added by Bones 9 years ago Multilingual 

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In order to be able to kill guards we have to click down our fame first by renouncing. I did thousands of clicks before i was able to kill guards.

#57 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual 

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1) Agreed. But I don't mind the camp, but would be nicer to have it in PR, imo.

4) Agreedd, but this isn ot an issue. I was a complete noob and forgot to get longsword and 2 hand mace before I went Mara and expected not to be able to get them.  I was able to do.  Did have to do a little murdering to get me fame back, but only gained 1-2 points, if that, in getting both of the plans.  That is why I say just lose a little fame.  Anyone can get them, and then just be good boys and girls for a little while to get them back.

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#58 Added by Salazar 9 years ago [en] 

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Lacuna
@ Salazar and Daomei, I still argue that Mara are a nation. We will not be able to agree on this as we have different undertsandings of what this means.  (...)

The mara are a people.  The are not a mob.  I think both of you do not really know much about tribal peoples or the history of ethnography of them. Your toons can see them as a ravening mob out to kill all hominkind.  A view that mirrors the european curtural myths of the Other that we can trace back to Tacitus and Herodotus, indeed this is good rp.  But this discussion is not about what toons think but what the mara actually are.  We may not agree that they are a nation, but they are a people.  And as cultrual entity that endure over time it is not unreasonable that as members of this culture that mara toons can show solidarity and earn faction points.

The term to describe Peoples usually their common language rather than their way of life - in many cases they were rather fighting each other than anything else. That was very much the case with the Germanic tribes, and it sort of went on into the 19th Century - there was no German nation until Bismarck forced it into being. The Arabic peoples are another example. The Atys countries are highly artificial in their unity, and the various cities given to the different language servers were just an effort to soothe the pain, to minimize the more or less natural problems. So I have high respect for those who choose to be Marauders and be forced in a community similar to Babel and the building of its tower, for few can (like Daomei) talk and write in several tongues, for the self-developed Marauder language is - like the language of the Atys nations - more of an abstract idea than of factual use.

But I do see a quite large gap between the Marauder players and the NPC Marauders who tried to take over the New Lands by force, are ruled by Old Lands' Melkiar, count blood-thirsty bandits and murderers and psychopaths like Aen and Dante and Marung amongst their representatives and deal in murder, drug trade and slavery. There's probably need to sort that out, as that very much infuences the dealings with the Marauders.

@Binarabi: As for slavery - don't forget that the last nation which introduced slaves were the Zorai under mad Fung-Tun. They are no writings telling us that Mabreka dropped it when he diposed of Fung-Tun. Probably it was continued until the ratification of the Homin Rights Act. ;)

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Salazar Caradini
Filira Matia
Royal Historian
Member of the Royal Academy of Yrkanis
First Seraph of the Order of the Argo Navis

#59 Added by Binarabi 9 years ago [en] 

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Yes - I remembered that after I posted - we sort have more reasons to dislike Zorians - especially with their slow ponderous way of thinking as well as their nasty, mean attitude to Trykers :D

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Binarabi
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. (Bill Hicks)
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