Discussing the Marauder Faction/Cult - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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#41 Added by Binarabi 9 years ago [en]

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Extremely well informed and very well said Lacuna - totally agree with you :))

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Binarabi
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. (Bill Hicks)

#42 Added by Daomei 9 years ago Multilingual

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Lacuna: Much interesting as is what you are telling, my perspective is rather that of the peoples of the middle kingdom and their formation of a multiethnic statehood than western primitive and totalitarian cults like "christian civilization". And I also hold some reserves against much lauded european enlightenment, the source of exterminatory "scientific" racism, and the malthusian concept of superfluous, dispensable humans, the cradle of nazi ideology. So you are ascribing a stance to me I do not hold and never will.

While your description of the marauder civilization is interesting, I ask myself how far it really fits the existing marauders, both in the ancient lands, and their outposts in the new territories. As far as I know and learnt, the marauders split from the rest of hominkind only short time ago (more or less one century now, to be exact). The founding fathers of the marauders, some of them probably still alive, stemmed from four different forms of statehood, which they all despised due to their defeat and collapse in the Kitin Wars 2481-84. To my knowledge, they collected the remains of hominity, united them with a lot of force, and formed their community. It became nomadic for the simple reason that they had to run and hide, later to hit and run, in face of the kitin danger. Therefore it is fairly understandable that their structure is based on clans, and has strength and readiness to fight as main principles.

I fail to see that those principles of the marauder community fit very well in the picture of tribal cultures you are describing. Granted I am not so deep in south american history and ethnology, but your analogies seem shaky to me.

The four peoples of the new territories just restored the cultures destroyed in the disaster of the twentyfoureighties, those are traditional rather than imagined communities, with their institutions, principles, and customs.

I fail to see that the marauders fit into that. They have a strange concept of "revenge" for that the nations, and they themselves alike, were not strong enough to win against the kitins, so that many homins either perished or were dispersed and left behind.

This desire for revenge is somewhat pathetic and ridiculous, why not punishing everybody for bad weather? But so what. Then yes, the want to "take over", to force all of hominity under their violent tyranny, and suppress and destroy their institutions, traditions, and cults (also their cities and house? I am not sure). I fail to see analogies in tribal cultures I saw and read about. China, for example, was two times forcefully "overtaken" by nomadic tribal people, the Mongols during the Yuan dynasty, and the Manzhou in the last centuries of the empire til the revolution of 1911. Those tribal rulers were not overly gentle during their takeover to say the least, but in fact, they neither destroyed the institutions nor suppressed the religions.

The program of the marauders seem to resemble much more ideologically driven movements than anything on an ethnic or national base. The matis and fyros may have their quarrels unfriendly neighbours have, but they always have a base to communicate, and no desire to overthrow the political system of their counterpart. As said, the nationhood would require less "universal", if not totalitarian claims which much resemble to those of e.g. christian crusaders aiming to either convert or kill every heathen.

And for the marauders being a people, I also have some doubts. This may be, to some extent, true for the marauders in the ancient lands, who, under the pressure of the kitins, found a viable way for survival, and even development, in their nomadic, mobile organization. The marauder proselytes from the new territories stem from more or less peaceful societies who found a comfortable way to restore more or less the pre swarm civilizations which well fit into the geopolitical and ethnic conditions of the regions where they are dwelling. Therefore, the status of marauders in the new territories is fundamentally different from their counterparts in the ancient lands, they are outcasts or dropouts in an environment which is in no way yearning to kill them all. Yet, I do not want or like to deny them to be a people. I consider them rather a faction, such as Karavan or Kami, with the differences described above.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#43 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual

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Daomei, I did not ascribe this stance to you. I criticised your use of examples.

I was not saying that they fit into the tribal societies I described. I am trying to make the point that Marauder do not fit with any culture in human history whatsoever. But ironically have most in common with the ones that have actually tried to exterminate peoples, the so called civilised nations. My ethnographic examples are from North and South Americas and these are peoples who in the colonial ethnography and the popular imagination seem to fit the idea of the 'savage'. A mode of thinking that legitimises all that was done to these peoples.

Marauder have existed long enough to transform into a people, and ethnic group. An imagined community is one where people imagine they belong to a community though a shared sense of history, culture, language etc rather than simply face to face interaction. Indeed, such face to face interaction is not needed for a sense belonging to a community to exist. Benedict Anderson coined the concept to discuss modern nationalism but is has spread beyond this narrow usage. In this sense German, Scottish, Matis, Fyros and Marauders are all imagined communities. Imagined should not be read as antonym of real in this case.

Marauders in the new lands are outcasts etc from the Civs BUT they are NOT from Marauder in the Old Lands.

Last edited by Lacuna (9 years ago)

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#44 Added by Binarabi 9 years ago [en]

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When Subbo was chatting with the guy who brought in Marauders - how long ago was this ... Subbo had the intention that marauders real enemy would be kitin - not all "other" homins, so marauders were disgruntled homins who rejected both karavan and kami and had their own community - in theory this would have been best built in Prime Roots. They were never supposed to be a set of nasty villains, rejects from society, or criminals, just an alternative in game for those who did not want to be the other 2 factions but who wanted to be a good alternative. Homins who lived by their wits and who had their own code of honour - but the role play was taken in a completely different direction on other servers.
Basically they did not want to take over by force (rape and pillage) but expected others to give up their false beliefs and join them

As they stand now I, personally, see them as against karavan and kami - but will support who they fancy in any war (possibly for dappers) and not as a bunch of evil homins - well, not too evil anyway. The concept of "the other" that Lacuna spoke about is a good one - concocted ideology by karavan and kami to make the marauders seem like nasty evil people, not to be trusted or liked and who should be killed on sight by all. Think this happens in real life - thus "they eat babies"

And just a point about ideology - all social systems concoct their own - to try to create cohesion - some of it based on lies (masses of it in some cases), so ethnic and cultural ideals are also ideological - but then I always did love Althusser and Lacan.

PS in theory, under our guild's Trytonist beliefs, no homin can die - being as we are alive because of nanotechnology - thus we are created and put on Silan so we can become the slaves of the Karavan - thus we do not have children and thus we are rezzed everytime we die - but Lore has many deaths - presume nanotechnology can be withdrawn ...

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#45 Added by Daomei 9 years ago [en]

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Hm, I still do not buy that concept of a nation, and for my taste, the definition of a nation as imagined community is bit too postmodern and arbitrary. I prefer more down-to-earth views like those of Wallerstein and others in traditions of Marx or Weber. A nation is not only a cultural and traditional, but even more a socio-economic and legal entity. Of course, atysian societies and communities are not really comparable, but even marauders have to eat, to clothe, to build weapons and tools etc., imagined community does not help so much with it. And in real nations, a common legal system, rules of residence, property rights and their limits etc. are fundamentals which are definitely not imagined.

And no, I categorically deny the concept of a 'savage' for the marauders, it does not fit at all. They are violent, and in some of their views fanatic, but resembling ways more the conquistadores rather than any south american tribe in their attitude to the people in the new territories.

I agree that the marauders created, to some extent, a common culture, at least a language of their own. Beneath that, I fail to see that they are really one people. Every clan is a community in its own right, every marauder inside these boundaries a lawmaker of her/his own, entitled to act how she likes as long as she has the strength to defend that against anybody contesting it. So, there is no common law for marauders, only some rules of customary behaviour. And I saw marauder clans acting very differently, some were in drug trafficking, some in employing enslavement, some were in rather close communication with non marauder homins.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#46 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual

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Imagined community is a concept to help explain why people think they belong to group, Daomei. Why does someone living in Stuttgart and someone in New York still identify as German. Why do they think they share ancestry, etc. Religions are also imagined comunities. People will never meet, indeed they may be dead for hundreds if not thousands of years, but they are seen as belonging. You are being very materialistic in your ideas. The idea of imagined communities does not preclude or negate Marx or Weber. It can be used to compliment them. Imagined communities ARE REAL. Imagined is not apposed to 'real' but face-to-face. It is how people who may never meet can think they belong to a group.

Daomei I give up. I could explain this too you over a bottle of wine, but not over the forums.

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#47 Added by Binarabi 9 years ago [en]

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But if they are seen as "the other" then in outsider's eyes they are homogeneous, but within their own "group" they may differ

On reflection I think that we should keep the marauder "faction", being as I think there should be a place for homins who do not agree with either Karavan or Kami and who want to flex their muscles in fighting and make choices about what they do, rather than toe-the-party-line in other "factions"

Also I love the rp of Lacuna when she sells wonderful crafted gear in the bazaar and, as a Tryker who has been told tales of slavery under the Matis, utterly agree with the idea of killing all Matis (hmm, maybe not quite all - but the particularly pompous ones) and keeping males in their place - preferably barefoot and in the kitchen

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#48 Added by Daomei 9 years ago [en]

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Lacuna, just to say one thing: this "I give up" is hurting a bit, ok it may be my fault. When I contradict or do not share your descriptions, it does not mean that they are wrong, bad, or invalid. I have read and reflected everything of your arguments, and consider them worthy to think about, and if they reflect the self-perception of marauder players, so be it. It is the job and the right of marauder players to shape their description and community culture.

Yet I would like to come back and down to the practical issues. Would occupations, and the possibility to hand them in to some NPC for faction (or nation or whatever) points really make so much of a difference? I do not think that anybody argues that lack of acceptance of marauders stem from these missing features.

Further on, when listening to Nerwane, and to some extent Bones, one may get the impression that the marauder faction is still awfully incomplete. Could you describe what, besides the occupations/NH equivalent stuff, is still missing?

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#49 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual

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Daomei I apologise, I did not mean that. I just meant the frustration of discussing abstract concepts is being lost in translation and we are misunderstanding what eachother means and talking at cross purposes a lot. I simply meant that I could explain what I meant in person.

1) A permanent city: the camp is meant to be temparary.
2) A respawn point in camp.
3) An effective way of dropping fame that is not simply clicking a mouse to renounce fame over and over. Missions to kill guards would be good. This would be a good counterpoint for missions to help people leave mara.
4) A series of missions similar to City Welcomers that would allow mara to lose a little fame just as homins gain a little for civs ones. But make them really hard. It would also be nice to have a generic spear plan as a reward. I think I was told that one exists but is no implemented.
5)Mara rite needs fixing.

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#50 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual

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As to the Occs, yes doing having the higher ones in camp would help. It would also stop mara going to cities and all the aggro that that causes. There is no rp reason for us not having them.

Yes an occ to gain fps, if it was fun, HARD. Perferably harder than Butcher. But I dont think we should get any dappers from it, just faction points. Not having them doesnt make the game harder, it just makes people make alts. Having them but making them evil to complete would make game better for us. We want hard. We just don't want incomplete.

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#51 Added by Nerwane 9 years ago [fr]

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6) que les marchands du camp mara nous fassent payer ou achètent inversement proportionnels aux fames .. plus on est mara, plus on paye cher à NOTRE marchand.. dingo ça ^^

(c'est pas vraiment une priorité^^ mais c'est une honte!! si encore on pouvait lui arracher la tête de temps en temps.. huhu)

#52 Added by Rikutatis 9 years ago [en]

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Lacuna

3) An effective way of dropping fame that is not simply clicking a mouse to renounce fame over and over. Missions to kill guards would be good. This would be a good counterpoint for missions to help people leave mara.

Virg used to organize raids on racial cities with a team of maras tagged for pvp to kill the guards there and quickly lower their fame with that race. Then the opposing faction there would tag and try to fight them off. Those were pretty fun events. ^^

Lacuna

Yes an occ to gain fps, if it was fun, HARD. Perferably harder than Butcher. But I dont think we should get any dappers from it, just faction points. Not having them doesnt make the game harder, it just makes people make alts. Having them but making them evil to complete would make game better for us. We want hard. We just don't want incomplete.

Maybe some craft/hunt missions to gain dappers as well? I was told there isn't anything like that in the camp right? Makes more sense than using alts to get dappers. Sure there's tribes, but still would be nice to have an in-house option to make dappers as well.

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#53 Added by Rikutatis 9 years ago [en]

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Tamarea

The forum is a place to exchange thoughts and of debate, in a good atmosphere for discussions. Animosity and agressive behavior against Ryzom staff is not something that is tolerated. Marauder players have the chance to have a volunteer who is dedicated and responsible for Marauders, and who spends all of his free time to work for them. He has explained during an OOC meeting, what he and some Ryzom teams are working on together for Marauders, and nearly everything that has been requested on the forums by players, is exactly what he stated was in progress with the team at in his OOC meeting. Such disrespectful comments from a part of the community are just unfair and demotivating for all the staff and are unacceptable.

Sorry Tamarea, I didn't know about this OOC meeting. Just wanted to discuss with other players what they think about the future of the marauder faction and how they fit in the game. =)

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#54 Added by Lacuna 9 years ago Multilingual

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@Rikutatis That is a good option but something for players to do solo or in small team that suits their game time would be good too. I suppose a way to get dappers would be good. I think your idea would maybe better if it was open to all players. Perhaps Ranger npcs outwith of cities could give missions to kill kitin, they harder the mob the more dappers. I think Talkirc proposed something like this. Could let players earn a lot of dappers if they were willing to invest all their time doing it.

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#55 Added by Daomei 9 years ago [en]

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Lacuna

Daomei I apologise ..

Thanks, no offense taken.

1) A permanent city: the camp is meant to be temporary.

Honestly, I do not understand that. I consider the camp a bridgehead for projecting marauder power into the new territories, so it may be considered temporary to those who want to conquer the world. But it seems not logical for me that marauders want a fixed city. Aren't they nomadic?

In fact, if once my craziest dreams would become real, playable ancient lands as new territories, with large marauder (free PvP) regions, a marauder capital there would make sense. Personally, I could imagine that bit alike the wandering capital of the medieval Mongols, with the task to find where it is located every given day or season (mind that the wandering palace was a two or three story structure, not just some dusty tent ;)).

2) A respawn point in camp.

Agreed. I would suggest a respawn point in or directly beneath every existing and future arena.

3) An effective way of dropping fame that is not simply clicking a mouse to renounce fame over and over. Missions to kill guards would be good. This would be a good counterpoint for missions to help people leave mara.

Agreed, that clicking down fame is boring, and too easy.

4) A series of missions similar to City Welcomers that would allow mara to lose a little fame just as homins gain a little for civs ones. But make them really hard. It would also be nice to have a generic spear plan as a reward. I think I was told that one exists but is no implemented.

To be honest, I despise the idea of reserving any crafting ability to a single faction, nation, or other closed group of players. Otherwise, agreed, also in case that such weapon may be obtained by other means, too.

5)Mara rite needs fixing.

I do not know about, but good luck for you and good success for Gaueko

6) [from Nerwane, bug fix of stupid merchants]

agreed of course

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Daomei (9 years ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

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