IDEAS FOR RYZOM

I don't think it should be overly difficult to obtain any generic weapon plan. The others were quite easy, low requirements. 0 fame,no fame requirement, I could see it work either way but I don't think anyone should really have to go out of there way to obtain one, that would be game play hindering. While I do agree that we do operate quite differently.
Perhaps we could always give non-marauders a different type of generated mission/response. Maybe a bribery or trickery, kidnap mission to the kami/kara/fyros/tryker/matis/zorai, some sort of black market type deal while the Maruder mission may be a bit darker.
The welcomer could be located a bit outside of camp like the mission giver is so that we do not lose the way our guards react as I think allowing 0 fame to enter camp would be wrong and would make the Marauder rite worthless.

I thought the plan in regard to the remaining generic plans was to have them as rewards from tribes? In the situation they would be available to all players.

I thought that was just bq, mq, hq skins?  Though I disagree with Virg, his idea would still make them available to all players.

Tribe plans are a completely different thing.

I agree it shouldn't be difficult Bones.

A simple mission string for marauders and neutrals with 0 fames for generic craft plans is simple and easy. 0 fame is not difficult to achieve for anyone and doesn't sacrifice the marauder-RP stance too much. A fair compromise on both sides.

Sorry and just to calrify the welcomer would be out of the camp away from guard aggro range so to accomadate the 0 fame players.

0 fame is not a fair compromise but an attempt to harm those who have higher fame, an unfair move as marauders may get generic plans at -67.

And there is no point for except Virg's vanity and stubbornness.

I would welcome if obtaining a marauder welcomer mission would not be easier for 0 fame and above than it is at -80 and below tribes. That would be fun and interesting. Every petty bargain of -10, 0 or so misses the point.

There is another aspect, it is the overall game design, its consistency which is beauty in the eyes of those who ever worked in technical and operating system design and programming. Destroying that for selfish and short-sighted wishes and envy would be a shame.

[Edited: Due to post not contributing to a useful discussion and are only serving to inflame the thread, it is heavily edited]

Daomei. Many marauders have -100 fame. We are 'harmed' if we want to do any generic plan or any rite etc etc. Arguing we chose this life is mute. This is a valid game option and as such things should be designed around that option.

Marauders have to grind fames from -100 to 30 if we want to do anything.

Each civ be it tryker, fyros, matis or zorai are just echos of each other. Therefore they can have the same merchants, they can have the same city welcomer.. make something for one civ? Copy, paste, change a little and stick it back into the other civs.

Marauders are completely different ...

With the speed of the posting in this thread, I will probably end up way later than intended. Please do not start any mud slinging even though you disagree and detest each others point of view etc.

Remain polite and within the forum rules at any time, please!

[Edited: Due to post not contributing to a useful discussion and are only serving to inflame the thread, it is heavily edited]

There are different dimensions.

One is the overall design of the game which holds a beautiful symmetry and consistency.

Next is: it does not deal with the "problem" of getting fame up and down. There would hardly be a roleplay justification to bring my reputation down to get a crafting plan. Ok, I could construct one, and probably would. 

Marauders are somewhat different, but in no way completely. Like Rangers and Trytonists, they emphasize the concept of one hominity above all differences. Like most homins, they emphasize the importance to fight the kitins. Like many Matis, they hate the Fyros nationals, like many Fyros, the Matis nationals etc., like Kamists, the Karavan followers and vice versa.

There are ways more similarities between Marauders and other homins. The state space in which homins and their differences as well as similarities do exist is the design of Atys. In this state space it is crucial to maintain symmetry and equilibrium. A single subset is not "completely different" from other subsets, and should be subjected to the same basic design principles as the others. Hence it is reasonable that a Marauder welcomer works similarly as a tribe or nation welcomer, a (possible future) Marauder journeyman/scout similarly as a Matis or Tryker journeyman/scout. Everything else would cause senseless and brainless extra work and be a cause of infinite new bugs.

[Edited: Due to post not contributing to a useful discussion and are only serving to inflame the thread, it is edited]

The game is not symmetrical.. because players with -100 fame just can't do normal things that everyone else can do. If it was then -100 and 100 fames would give equal opportunities. They don't. We have to grind fames for many things- don't cry when you have to for 1 simple thing. You don't even have to go to negatives. 0 is easy.

[Edited: Due to post not contributing to a useful discussion and are only serving to inflame the thread, it is edited]

Hm. The concept of symmetries (in physics conservation principles) does not require that every phenomenon is symmetrical. It is true that -100 does not give equal opportunities to 100, on the other hand, it is easier to achieve. There is symmetry in the system.

Tixi, thanks for overseeing. Yet, so far I think you can go to bed without worries. I fail to see that any of the opponents is excceeding the CoC constraints, no matter how much their views may differ.

To add: I did not feel Virg's posting really due for editing, of course, your mileage may vary, but one should be, in my opinion, reluctant in editing except in case of real transgressions which Virg is not culpable of.

I want to add something which is off topic in some way but important anyway. I do not want to appear arrogant with my reasoning, and want to keep in phase with other contributors.

I am aware that I am no angel when it comes to polemics. I am catty and not willing to take any attack unanswered (sometimes I hate myself for). I am aware, further, that my technique of polemics is fairly sophisticated and most times avoiding the pitfalls of CoC. That does not excuse that it is sometimes at least as if not more venomous than a simple "you are an <censored>".

I owe a lot to Wrox who once muted me in an Uni discussion telling me "I cannot blame you any CoC transgression, but the way you argue is stirring up everything". He was right, and I admitted fault to him. I can be a bitch.

I ask, honestly, everybody, to get back to a rational, peaceful, and respectful discussion. We may have different views, but should be able to seperate them from personal animosities and prejudices.

Tixi can you just close this thread as long as Riku agrees. This has once again, like so many other threads, been derailed. Perhaps hopefully we can restart a healthy discussion elsewhere.

The forums is meant to be a positive place for people to work together and put forward ideas that will help the game. Not to antagonise others into petty arguments. Unfortunately I was suckered in so I am sorry for ruining this thread.

Daomei one more petty comment (misandristic or otherwise) and I will just ignore you from now on.

(and please don't edit this- it is relevant to all future discussions even if off-topic)

I am against closing. There have been a lot of constructive proposals how to develop the marauder faction. I am willing to go on discussing them constructively, and fail to see that all of them have been discussed. Further ideas may be added. Beyond the polemics, most of the discussions were constructive and fruitful.

Everybody should use restraint when engaging in polemics. I do not exclude myself, of course.

To add that: Rikukatis opened that thread on my proposal, and mentioned it. It is bit strange how some contributors take things personal.