How to fix the game (brainstorming) - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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#22 Added by Rook 9 years ago [en]

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+1 to Klrs' last post, and last post for me as well.

#23 Added by Binarabi 9 years ago [en]

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It is a shame how poeple who play this game still think anything will change - owner is quite happy gathering the subs at the end of each month - and nothing will be changed here - I have no idea why people are still being misled about new changes via Forge ...

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Binarabi
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. (Bill Hicks)

#24 Added by Bitttymacod 9 years ago [en]

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I come late to this argument, but I have to say first, that the proposed disconnect of the auras from each other and from other players is MUCH more than changing a few constants in the code. The interactions between the auras/protections/heals is built into the code. The durations and cooldowns are just constants to be adjusted, but the rest is coding, and not simple coding either. (I'm speaking conceptually, not from any knowledge of the actual code.)

In addition, if those changes had been in effect when I started the game I never would have stayed and learned to appreciate all that Atys is. You won't be attracting *more* people (necessarily), just *different* people, and you will be removing one refuge of careful gameplay for yet another button-mashing twitch game.

My opinions.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#25 Added by Irfidel 9 years ago [en]

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Bitty and Daomei already expressed what I'm feeling, so I won't repeat.

But one point I do want to make: The posts in favour of this idea express a certain viewpoint based on a certain style of playing games and underlying assumptions/expectations about how a game should be working.

I would believe though that this is not representing the majority of the players. And as Bitty pointed out: it does us no good if we exchange one crowd with another. Well, i don't want to be replaced ;-)

there's so much you can do from day one onwards in ryzom that you could spend weeks playing content without levelling at all. Travelling has been named in this forum dozens of times, occupations, of course, roleplay, just watching the fauna live their lives. I always tell new players too not grind levels to 250 too quickly. What for? If the only goal is too be able to kill high level mobs, you need a team anyway. In a team, except for Pei, you will be welcome even at a low level. So what's the hurry? And if it's for pvp, why can't folks organize tournaments at comparable levels?

This is a sandbox game. This also means you have to put work into enabling your personal playing style. Tournaments do not happen if nobody organizes them, roleplay is entirely in players hands (and those players who put additional time into the event team).

I also believe that we are not afraid of change as Bonny said. With the limited development happening, it's all a matter of priorities. Changing a working combat system is not a priority, imho. Ryzomforge is somewhat different: open source folks tend to work on just those things that mean fun to them. See Talk's post. Some of those rogue ideas make it into the game, some not. Did we really need an achievement system? Imho not. But SirCotare had fun doing it, he did it, and that feature did not break anything - so it happened and got accepted for inclusion into Ryzom. There was once code to degrade mats over time. Great idea. All wasted work, if you want, because it never made it into the game. It would have broken the load on the server.

It's ok to fervently defend one's ideas. But do not be disappointed if it does not store the same enthusiasm with this little community. We have to face the reality of what can be developed currently and with which priority.

Last edited by Irfidel (9 years ago)

#26 Added by Mjollren 9 years ago [en]

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I've said it before, I'll say it again: the game feels like a movie. And considering the not-so-subtle influences of Kaena, I'm not surprised.

Going on Irfidel's theme, having a sandbox is pretty useless if your only tools is a broken spade and a bucket of water. You could make a decent nature documentary in Ryzom, but not an action movie or a dramatic one.

Yes, I keep hearing that "you could". Sure, you could organize tournaments. Why the hell don't people rush to organize tournaments, then? Hint: player base is too low in order to find even 20 people of similar levels, mechanics suck when going against someone even 15 levels higher (much better dodge, higher chance to resist magic, etc). This is just one particular example.

At some point, you will have to suck it up and understand your player base needs a fun (or addictive) activity to perform constantly, without a lot of time investment on the player's part. Digging is not fun. Leveling is not fun and can't be done in large groups. Roleplay requires Event Team intervention or a lot of scripting and make-believe. There is nothing I can think of that will keep me *entertained* for 3 continuous hours in Ryzom, without getting bloody repetitive. Recipe-making for a select few, perhaps.

Every moderately active guild will tell you that new players never stay. They play for a while, sink up time and effort, then when nearing 125 they draw a line and figure they don't want to sink years into the game. They don't find entertainment value in it.

I don't care what keeps the current player base entertained, because whatever it is, it's a proven loser's recipe, slowly bleeding out people. I care what would keep *more* players interested.

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#27 Added by Bitttymacod 9 years ago [en]

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Ahem.

Mjollren

At some point, you will have to suck it up and understand your player base needs a fun (or addictive) activity to perform constantly, without a lot of time investment on the player's part.

OK, here I lose you completely. If "your player" needs that, then they should be playing solitaire, sudoku or Bubble Monkey Pop Juice Candy Farm. I have not met an MMO that does not involve a lot of time investment on the player's part and a significant amount of grind. As for the staying power of new players, churn is also a feature of all games.

Mjollren

Digging is not fun. Leveling is not fun and can't be done in large groups. Roleplay requires Event Team intervention or a lot of scripting and make-believe. There is nothing I can think of that will keep me *entertained* for 3 continuous hours in Ryzom, without getting bloody repetitive. Recipe-making for a select few, perhaps.

Digging is not fun for YOU, it's fun for me. Leveling CAN be done in large groups (e.g. Shalah and Plod teams, and use of multiple teams in the same area). You say that there should be a fun or addictive activity and then you criticise repetitiveness. The two are inversely related (see any dungeon crawler).

As for Roleplay, it's inherently make-believe! How can it not be?

If you have ideas for things that will improve the game, make them explicit and work them out (in detail). As Irfidel pointed out, some things do get implemented, some things don't. However, if an idea is not well worked out, it is guaranteed not to get implemented!
-- Just my thoughts.

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#28 Added by Mjollren 9 years ago [en]

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Bitttymacod

I have not met an MMO that does not involve a lot of time investment on the player's part and a significant amount of grind. As for the staying power of new players, churn is also a feature of all games.

That grind must be either fun or addictive (think rats pressing a lever for random cheese drops addictive, there's a study on this). Ryzom promises neither. You grind just because you're required to - impossible to hit some mobs or players otherwise - not because you want to unlock some high level fun content.

Digging is not fun for YOU, it's fun for me. Leveling CAN be done in large groups (e.g. Shalah and Plod teams, and use of multiple teams in the same area). You say that there should be a fun or addictive activity and then you criticise repetitiveness. The two are inversely related (see any dungeon crawler).

See above. Nothing is fun about pressing "4" to heal, for 30 minutes/level at 240. This is a grind you just *have* to slog through, if you want to compete with others in actual gameplay. And usually grind is rewarded with something (you know, dangling the carrot) - Ryzom doesn't dangle anything.

For every person that says Ryzom's grind is fun, I hear 10-20 others who say it's not, or just quietly slip away because of the state of affairs.

If you have ideas for things that will improve the game, make them explicit and work them out (in detail). As Irfidel pointed out, some things do get implemented, some things don't.

I can sit on a stool and tell you that it's badly designed - sometimes even "why". But I could not tell you how to design and build a good stool, that's not my craft.

I am not a game designer or architect. There is a reason why those actually have a job with its own title, and get paid significant money for it. To come and tell me unironically that I should do this job for free (even if I were qualified for it) is just crass.

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#29 Added by Rook 9 years ago [en]

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I just had to pass by, to approve almost everything Mjollren said.
*nods to Mjollren and goes away again*
PS : Did I forget to mention - Grinding is not funny in this game.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Rook (9 years ago)

#30 Added by Yenno 9 years ago [en]

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Rook

IGrinding is not funny in this game.

+1.

#31 Added by Placio 9 years ago [en]

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This thread is for the Idea of shortening auras and thier cooldowns, maybe an actual discussion thread is need to brainstorm what will 'fix' Ryzom.

#32 Added by Daomei 9 years ago Multilingual

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Mjollren

Bitttymacod
I have not met an MMO that does not involve a lot of time investment on the player's part and a significant amount of grind. As for the staying power of new players, churn is also a feature of all games.
That grind must be either fun or addictive (think rats pressing a lever for random cheese drops addictive, there's a study on this). Ryzom promises neither. You grind just because you're required to - impossible to hit some mobs or players otherwise - not because you want to unlock some high level fun content.

Strange, Mjollren. Did you ever read that "Chasing the Ding" signature? Did you understand it, and did you ever share the feeling, the satisfaction to improve, much more when you experienced the results, were rewarded by new stanzas to try?

All that was no fun, did not motivate? I doubt. Moreover, as Bittty told, "you guys" (it is appropriate here) constantly confuse "it is no fun" with "it is no fun for me".

I was never bored during leveling. When doing my first melee master (dagger) I got used to train naked, because at that time, I depended on other players to craft my armor, and it was valuable for me, even emotionally, as nice higher players had bothered to craft it for me, mostly beatiful stuff according to my wishes. Additionally, it was fun and thrill to take on cuttlers in FF naked, armed only with two tekorn daggers. This works better than you think, of course it needs a very attentive healer.

I had other methods to make level grind interesting. My ele training, as far as it was solo, was, once I was higher in level, performed in regions like SC and GoC, where cuttlers, tyranchas, jugula etc. are attacking herbies, which had to serve as my tanks. This was not without dangers or failures, but never boring. And, to be honest, I can, at least at times, even enjoy repetetive stuff, it is somehow reassuring and relaxing and may free your mind. Same goes, even more, with digging which can indeed be very addictive.

Yes I know, you'll find that ridiculous. I for my part could equally rant about PvP, that it is boring, always the same, leading to nothing than waste of good equipment, and is most times not a victory of the better fighter than of the faster box, the stronger weapon or better armor, or even the larger number, and often leads to dissent and resentment, sometimes even hate. All that is true and untrue at the same time: it is true for me, as I don't like PvP and have no fun with. I is of course not true for people who practise and like it and I am far from miswanting or deriding their fun.

Nothing is fun about pressing "4" to heal, for 30 minutes/level at 240. .. For every person that says Ryzom's grind is fun, I hear 10-20 others who say it's not, or just quietly slip away because of the state of affairs.

I doubt your "statistics". Of course one can practise level training in a boring way and get bored - how astonishing. I have leveled up everything without boredom, and am still helping off team at times.

There are a lot of things which require improvement in Ryzom, the skill ladder clearly is not among them.

Edit: just read and +1 Placio

Last edited by Daomei (9 years ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#33 Added by Yenno 9 years ago [fr]

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It looks like Daomei only wanted to oppose with an argument that would seem 'realistic' or 'logic' but in fact it's completely wrong.

I didn't want to respond at first... But, I couldn't let such thing to be seen without clarification. Okies, I approved the idea 'No fun in leveling' because I do have enough experience in leveling and I spent most of my gaming-experience (which lasts long) doing that. But, in the other hand, how much does Daomei spend in PvPing... Did she ever try it? Well... Nevermind... I guess, I/we know... :)

Daomei (atys)

I for my part could equally rant about PvP,boring, always the same, leading to nothing than waste of good equipment, and is most times not a victory of the better fighter than of the faster box, the stronger weapon or better armor, or even the larger number, and often leads to dissent and resentment, sometimes even hate.

Boring: How could it be? Explain... Wow!
The same: *Shocked again* PvP is dynamic and always change... You don't know what PvP jewels your enemie is wearing, the way your enemie would react or which 'Auras' would he use...
Leading to nothing: Actually it leads you to everything *smiles*. PvP is very competitive and teach you alot of things... It's much more than killing a Programmed-Mob that always acts/behaves the same way.
Waste of good equipment: Well, wahh! What? If you don't use your best equipements in PvP then, where would you use them? On a Great Cuttler? You don't need any good equipements when it comes to PvE.
After that, I didn't really get much your next arguments... They didn't make sens to me, you used a lot of words just to fit the place... 'dissent', 'resentment', 'hate'... Either you have changed the topic or I am not really getting it, because PvP is very far away from that.

If you have mastered all your skills, got all NPC armors yet you still dying easly against a Homin, and you couldn't protect yourself in PvP regions... That doesn't make much sens even in RP...

If you can not PvP then don't judge it.
If you do not like PvP then try it.

(*Nods* Not really its place but it could fit, I couldn't resist:)

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Yenno (9 years ago)

#34 Added by Rook 9 years ago [en]

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@Yenno I do believe The PvP thing was not a real argument. More like a "Don't say something I like is not enjoyable, because I can tell you the same for something you like." kind of argument.
Even though what she said about PvP is not correct because she didn't get into it anyway.

I also believe that this discussion is getting pointless.

As every "fixing" discussion I've ever seen so far.
Because it confronts 2 completely different points of view which, even by discussing a lot, can hardly reach an agreement.

Apparently, players that are happy with the game will be happy forever since it won't change for us little unhappy players; And sadly enough we will just leave unhappy - as every other unhappy player that left before and will leave after us.

#35 Added by Bitttymacod 9 years ago [en]

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The point of any "fixing" thread, in my opinion, should not be "this needs to be fixed" (implied by someone else), but "this change" should be implemented because it doesn't break anything and it makes (this aspect) better.

The original post here proposed a poorly described set of changes to the protective and healing auras and merely said the changes would make the game "more dynamic", without specifying how the change would do so, nor how the impact on the current use of those stanzas would be mitigated. Naturally it met resistance.

In the meantime, you are correct that the point of the discussion wandered. The question then becomes: What are the "two completely different points of view"? Is if PvP vs. PvE? (I don't think so.) Is it "rapid action fighting"? What is it?

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#36 Added by Rook 9 years ago [en]

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@Bitty I was thinking of an opposition between players comparing Ryzom with other MMORPGs (gameplay wise) which i believe are me, Klrs, Mjollren... vs people playing the game as it is without really questioning gameplay.

I do agree on your point of proposing a real change to be applied or not with stats and values and whatever you need - however I will quote Mjollren here ''I am not a game designer or architect. There is a reason why those actually have a job with its own title, and get paid significant money for it. To come and tell me unironically that I should do this job for free (even if I were qualified for it) is just crass.''

You know, I love this game. I unsubscribed but I still can't let go of this universe and it's community. And I dream of the day I'll be able to play a game while playing the game. Because this is not a game. It's literally just another universe. Quite the glitched one though, but I hope y'all get what I am trying to say.

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