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@Subo: Oh yea that's why I said that given a choice between the two, I'd rather see new content in the next patch than a marauder "fix".

@Bones: All I said is that Ryzom will loose subs regardless, because a compromise cannot be reached. Both to rp people as well as non-rp people. A "normal" guild won't solve this problem, nope. It'll just piss off different people and loose their subs instead. And then I stated a fact to support the idea that _maybe_ we loose even more subs from rp people quitting. That was all, really. But I'm glad it made you laugh. Laughing is good. =)

I think for the last few years (and especially the Marauders) we have been the guinea pigs in preparation for advancements(? - errr more like the creation of more bugs and issues........) in the game.

I firstly dont agree with the way that the devs handled the implementation of the Marauder *organisation*/faction/WhateverTheHeckItIs.... and because of this I just see us (the player base) taking chunks out of each other or going around in circles: well if we cant why should you... well according to RP you cant do this that or the other...

The Lore was not properly addressed before the merging of the servers and the Marauder organisation was implemented in bits and pieces.

There is a lot of fixing that needs done in the game and I personally do not think THIS is as important.  Regardless of what I think personally the reality is the devs have left the player base to make do and we have made done and are now used to how things are even if we have to make alts to do NH.  I guess this is a bit like facebook and when they used to update it and there was an uproar until we all eventually got used to it... sadly I don't think the majority of us will have a say in this and we will just have to get used to it.

**Just so there is no confusion I still consider the Marauders as an organisation and I do not think they should be considered a faction and as such they should be treated in an organisation and be free to join any guild.**

The following things come to mind:

• Are there marauder-aligned guilds?
• Are marauders a faction, a race (nation) or an organization
  (IMHO an anti-nation+anti-faction org)
• Neutral guilds are the most restricted (all members have to be neutral)
• Pro-guilds are the most "open" (neutral + pro can join)
• pro-guilds don't "want" (from a RP perspective) no anti-their-own-alignment members
• The current alignment system doesn't work for marauders (unless we get 2 marauder fames - one for nation and one for faction leading to weird situations like )
• I've never seen the marauders as anti-cult/faction so I was really surprised when they were first introduced as an org

These things lead to the following logical rules for marauders/guilds:

• Marauders should be forbidden in Neutral guilds (pro is forbidden so anti should as well)
• Marauders should be forbidden in Pro-guilds
• Neutrals should be able to join marauder guilds
• We need 2 new fames (one could be renamed): atheists (new faction for anti) and deserters (new nation for anti)
• Marauder guards would have to check both fames
• A marauder guild would be atheist-deserter (and a trytonist guild would be atheist-neutral or atheist-some nation)
• If your fame goes below -50 for ALL factions you're no longer neutral but atheist (trytonist?)
• If your fame goes below -50 for ALL nations you're no longer neutral but a deserter
• It might be a good idea to create "open" guilds, where anybody can join,  but they would need some other kind of restriction instead (eg. having a guild hall which is just apartment sized)

I think it would be better for RP to allow players to do their decisions. It doesn't make sense that players are forced to do something. We'd have a much wider range of different social groups if we removed restrictions from guilds and gave them the chance to decide who to recruit.

I really don't think so, rubiksmomo. Most guilds don't push against the gameplay boundaries at all. They would remain the same regardless.

I find it a bit strange that on one hand there are "some stupid rp reason" but on the other hand there seem to be enough RP reason to become marauder. I mean, if you don't care about RP then why not stay completely neutral?
Maybe I don't understand the motives of the one joining the marauders, are there other reasons for it than some kind of RP? Obivously Suboxide joined the marauders because "an event person (akilla) told me and some others to infiltrate the other guilds and factions." Which is a fine RP reason.
So I don't understand why on one hand you say that we don't want to hear something of "rp reasons" and on the other hand you seem to have enough RP reasons to become marauders.
The marauders are the most extreme faction of all, they are against all nations and factions. This is so strong that it cannot just be an organisation, they have raided the homins again and again, burned their cities and killed their guards. It's not just an organisation all nations can just ignore. And this is not just a tiny little stupid RP reason, it's the very identity of that stuff and the reason you join them.To be a cool badass or something. And I find it a bit strange that it seems unfair to people afterwards that marauders aren't welcome to national or factional guilds.
My solution would be that marauders are welcome in marauder and completely neutral guilds.

lol well pre merger they where different and played differently by event team aswell. yes they still hated all false gods and rulers but above all they hated the kittin.
> the kittin part wich was important pre merger seems to have dissapeared and does give it a totally different ring

And yup when i was one before you could join them and then when i joined them i had rp reasons. But since merger any rp i want to do or believed in was crushed by the french so now I don't rp anymore like most ppl i know.
Does this mean I need to give up what I worked for?

Our guild has been a mixed guild for over 5 years, monks is now also a mixed guild recently.
We don't own op's and we try to help ppl ingame with FH shops stocked up, do treks when asked and so on. So who do we hurt?

The thing that confuses me is this idea that the devs created this clause as an 'attack' or something against 1 or 2 particular guilds. That seems pretty ridiculous to me.

They stated that the marauders will have the same rules the other factions have had for years and years. No matter what your opinion on organization vs faction is, it is a simple idea. (IMO Maru is defined as a faction simply because you can't be karavan/maruader or kami/marauder at the same time.)

If you want to look at the RP, it fits the Maru ideal doesn't it? That whole 'all the other factions/civilizations are fools!' mentality does conflict with being in a guild with all those fools. :P (Insert Maru roar here)

I can understand newer players up in arms with the guild restrictions and such, but that is how it has always been. Marauder, being an 'official' new faction, just took a little longer to implement (due to the fame issues Placio quoted, it seems.) The rule is not new, guys and gals. (Yes I know Marauder has been around since the beginning but not as an official faction like it is now.)

It isn't like they are telling us who to be friends with or not (and who to hang out with). I got friends across all factions/civs/languages that I hang out with all the time!
But I wouldn't feel right if a karavan or marauder were in my guild, as much of a friend as they are to me.

if they wanna turn it in a faction then easy:
Give em missions, Silan precense, occupations, ... < this is just some basic stuff that would be needed to make it a faction since now it's a broken thing that gets a new restriction.

Then again we don't RP anymore we are just bunch of friends, but seems ryzom community is showing maybe ryzom isn't the game anymore for friends and friendly ppl all they seem to want is war and confrontation.

We will see where it leads to ...

(This isn't meant as offensive as it may sound) Then why you have chosen to be part of the faction that is a synonym for war and confrontation? If you like friendly play then wouldn't being neutral be the better choice?

I mean... you guys don't like to play with the RP background of the marauders. You don't like the conflicts and confrontations of the marauders. And you're afraid that the guild breaks apart if you're marauder. That sounds like three good reasons for me to just skip that marauder stuff and have fun playing with your guild as it is, hanging around in Fairhaven with just the same amount of PVP or whatever you're interested in.

Marauders are the anti-faction, they were introduced by raiding half of Atys and always they said they wanted to destroy the civilizations and were against the higher powers. It's hard to believe no one knew about that when the decision came, living forever happily together with the civs they want to destroy? Even when they said you infiltrate the guilds... that smells like conflict from the beginning! Being totally surprised that the anti-faction is indeed opposite (oh my god!) to the nice guilds and being angry that those opposite things can't be united... that is a bit strange or at least a bit naive in my eyes. You've chosen MARAUDERS not Greenpeace.

I fully agree that the marauder faction isn't very appealing in the current state, still many things missing. But if I was in your position, I would just skip that marauder stuff gameplay-wise, just playing it in RP for fun and hang out with your guild you love.
One day, if there is a fully developed, attractive faction with RP background, Lore and nice gameplay you're free to decide what feelings are stronger in your character's chest. The life of a badass doing bad things raiding cities and killing people or the life of a nice homin, helping others out in the cities and being part of a guild that is part of civilized hominkind. Having both in the end seems highly irrealistic and simply arbitrary and irrational to me like being a Gingo and a Yubo or Fire and Water at the same time.

By the way, personally I'm not happy about the fact that the marauders were introduced as a player faction at all. I think the nations and the factions as they were were fine and good enough. I would be very happy to see the very friendly GoS guild being part of the civilized Atys as a whole.

Well for me there is still hope there, I still hope one day the stuff I believed in comes true.
I hope one day it does all get added and or fixed and so on.

What you are saying is give up and addapt > if that is what ryzom is standing for now then for me it will mean the end of almost 10 years playing on Suboxide

I've been quietly watching this post since it started; The apparently upcoming "fix" has raised some questions in my mind, like what is a "guild anyway?"

Websters defines as guild as :
"an organized group of people who have joined together because they share the same job or interest; especially : an association of people who made or sold goods in the Middle Ages"
Clearly, Ryzom isn't based upon middle ages Earth, it's Science fiction-someplace else. So what is it?

Is a Guild a family? In my family (irl) we have extremely devoted Christians of several faiths, Agnostics and at least one outright Atheist (who shows up for Christmas every year and doesn't start any trouble, just enjoys the holiday for what it is). Politically, we have far right-wing supporters and far left liberals, but we still get together on a daily basis and share holidays. (with no bloodshed mind you)

Is a Guild a job? I've held several occupations and worked for lots of different companies in my life and the one they all have in common, is that the people i meet in the workplace all come from different religious and political backgrounds. I'm a bleeding heart liberal atheist and can gat along just fine with with the most conservative Cristian government hating republican tea-bagger my country has to offer, as long as we get the job done.

Is a guild akin to a quilting/crafting club? I think not. Although I have never been personally involved in any kind of "crafter's club (guild if you will)" I know people who are, and they have a lot of fun discussing differences in politics/religion.

Is a guild a school of some kind? Please, you will never find a more politically/religiously diverse group than you will at a university.

OR... Is a guild in Ryzom just an outward expression of our religious or political fanaticism?

Why not give the power to control who is and is not allowed into a guild to the founders and /or leaders of a guild instead of making religious and political faction a game mechanic? If Ryzom is going to bill itself as a truly sandbox game, then why restrict guild formation in regards to fame? wouldn't it be more dynamic even related to RP if you could have members of a guild who were of opposing factions to interact with each other daily within the same guild, friends in family, but enemies in ideology? Guild leaders could decide how extreme their followers needed to be in order to be in guild, members would be more free to choose their level of fellowship within a cause.
I realize this isn't the easiest solution to this problem for the people who code this game, but maybe it's the best? Giving the guild leaders control of the faction of their own guild could make for a much more rewarding experience for all.

As I already said a few times Aru, if people want to suggest removing guild restictions that should be posted in ideas for Ryzom. But currently guilds do have restrictions.

In regard to what is a guild in Ryzom, we are probably more like a tribe- webster's has three possible definitions of a tribe: (the first fits what we call guilds in Ryzom)

: a group of people that includes many families and relatives who have the same language, customs, and beliefs

: a large family

: a group of people who have the same job or interest

I would suggest that the guild structure as currently implemented parallels the concept of "sept", a tightly bound subdivision of a clan or tribe.

Clearly the game initially intended to encourage players to make divisive choices with consequences as to things like politics and which teleport pacts you got to use.

The rise of the un-aligned class already put stress on that model, and the institution of the Marauders as a playable orientation stressed it in ways that were not foreseen. The lack of speedy coding and adaptation meant that what was, in concept, a bug, went uncorrected long enough for some players to see it as a feature.

The concept that choices have consequences, however, suggests that allowing Marauders into aligned guilds remains a bug. It makes being a Marauder free of certain consequences that Kami and Kara and Nation aligned have to accept.

As Placio points out, a suggestion that guilds be given total control over their membership should be submitted to the Ideas forum since it represents a far greater change in code and play than extra room in GH's or multi-selection for trading.

Myself, I would like to see neutral guilds be allowed to take any members but retain the restrictions on aligned guilds.

A possible fix