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@ Bina: I guess what bothers me more is the idea thrown around of investing dev time and effort into modifying the existing code so that there's no longer guild restrictions and anyone can join any guild regardless of alignment.

First of all, we all know dev time and resources appear to be very limited and we have scarce few new patches coming out. So I'd MUCH rather see that time invested in new content (such as new missions and occupations for marauders as Virg suggests, those are sorely needed) instead of modifying guild restrictions.

Secondly because gameplay wise, if you are to make guilds free for all, then you might as well just discard the whole concept of Kami and Kara and factions, throw that out of the window, give the same PR TPs to everyone and be done with it. Then discard the whole concept of civ as well, give full NH rewards for everyone, and that's it. No more civs or factions, just guilds. And I know that'd suit some players just fine, but it just goes against the whole concept of Ryzom as a game.

@ Soyeok: No matter what the devs decide to do, it WILL piss off some players and loose some subs. There's no magic choice here that will suddenly make Ryzom flourish because it pleases everyone. As a matter of fact, you could argue more subs are lost by people dropping out of game for lack of RP than for lack of "free for all" guilds. Someone recently told me Aniro had OP wars in which 200+ players attended. Where are all those players now?

Also there's no "direction its headed" Soyeok. Ryzom guilds have worked like this since forever (or at least very early on in its development). There's always been the alignment restriction in place. The reason for this whole discussion is because marauder is a new organization. It only came out a few years ago, therefore all the code is new. And as Placio already explained, it was technical difficulties, limitations, oversights or whatever it was that have kept them from following the same limitations other factions and civs have always had. And they have been trying to fix that. As simple as that.

Now if you ask me whether I would prefer the next patch to be either a "fix" for kicking marauders out of non-marauder guilds OR a new content in the form of a new rite or boss, then I'd definitely go for the new content. I think that'd add more to the game.

I think that some unwelcoming people want to turn Ryzom into an all out role playing game. Some come onto Ryzom to socialize, explore and just to have fun. Others like to play seriously. Why would they take that away? Take that choice away?
Some of us choose our factions simply because they are cool or they have less conflict. Seriously. The Ryzom team is now creating a problem that should'nt exist and doesn't have a justified reasoning to it.
If we just want to enjoy the wonders of the game and to create connections with people by flailing around the game, then we should have the freedom to do so.

I'm so sick of overly sensitive people who are as boring as a rock. They truly believe that strict rules are needed to have a civilized organization. You know what, life isn't civilized and it never was.
Stop staying in your bubble and open yourself up to the world. Unless you have a severe immunodeficiency, then judge and hate 'till your sick of it. But if not, get your head out of your ass.

If you don't care about RP why are you choosing a faction/organization?

_Neutral_ provides the game play for what you guys want as in "socialize, explore and just to have fun".

I don't want just to state the obvious here, because I know how it feels to make a change, my guild moved from marauder to another faction, we had to raise from -100, but I don't see why it cant become a guild event and you guys still have fun with the change...

Exodus/Gkr

STOP TRYING TO HIJACK THE THREAD

THIS IS ABOUT MARA BEING ALLOWED IN GUILDS, NOT ABOUT THE FUNCTION OF MARA!

The FACT is that the game MECHANICS force a player to pick a faction, (teleport requirements and fame limitations impacting trading) and the only way around picking Kami or Kara is Mara or Ranger.

What is NOT right is saying Mara can't be in anything but a Mara guild and ignoring rangers and neutral players and allowing them to be in any guild they want.

The sub-issue is that the mechanics of who is allowed in a guild is redundant and possibly BROKEN.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE MECHANICS OF MARA SO STOP BICKERING ABOUT IT HERE.

*Hands Callie a chill-pill*

'mechanics of marauders' is very much going to be a part of any discussion about whether marauders should be allowed in aligned guilds. Granted there was some slightly off topic stuff but the thread is staying on course. The mechanics apply in the fact there are so many more useful things the devs could be working on rather than adding restrictions to the marauders. If they truly wanted to help- they would focus on that stuff instead.

Within anything the devs do and decide they think about two things:
1) The roleplay implications
2) The impact on the players

If you want to change their minds you are going to have to focus in both aspects and provide good reasoning for both. (C'mon Bina I am sure you can make some good RP arguments :P). Simply picking one and beating it to death won't get you anywhere.

(@Laofa clearly you didn't read what I said so no point in continuing that)

Since my 2 previous posts were ignored (maybe because no one cares that I am a newbie; or that i have brought valid facts that would upset this ridiculous idea) I will leave with you "Our rage and lamentations do us more harm that whatever caused our anger and grief in the first place" This is not directed at anyone in particular but as a collective whole for the silliness of this all….

Marauder: someone who wanders or raids in search of plunder.

By that very definition, we are all Marauders so this very silly and lengthly post (because too many people are missing the point) means that we are all guilty regardless of allegiance (Faction) and should just let people enjoy the game as is. Change will not be for the better, it will be for the worse and if that is what you want, you will see what i wrote earlier come true with a mass exudes.

Soyeok :-)

@ Virg - I agree :)

@everyone telling me i don't rp so i shouldn't care:
I have rp'ed in the past, I would like to think I did alot for mara in the past (pre Atys server). Bug testing town, bug testing rite, come up with ideas, helping in events, asking for things that where added (yes at first mara camp was even more empty with missing trainers for months and other stuff problems with shops and so on...), ....
True that I don't really rp anymore these days or even activly play except killing some boss now and then and for the rest i'm just here for relaxing instead of watching stupid tv in the evenings.
But I don't think that should mean I need to give up my ideas and way of playing because ppl don't like it on Atys server.

@Riku How is putting dev time into making a restriction not as bad as putting dev time into removing all restrictions?


The only thing I can see new and old ppl return to game is if they do content related additions, they don't have to be big even.
But in last months only addition I've seen to the game was the anti mara guards at FH stables that also formed a restriction to the game and where removed soon after being developped and added since it also costed them subs and angry players.

pls read the idea forums, alot of ppl have made god ideas there that could actually move this game along and would maybe even bring back old players (even if only for a short while). Adding restrctions to ryzom is not the way devs need to move I think.

Umm..............................no need for such a high horse perhaps :)

Yep, it's lack of RP that make people unsub from this game more than anything and not the mindless fanatics trying to shove it down our throats. Good laugh, needed that. But these same people have no problem teaming with there enemies to do an NPC hunt. GG.
If we had neutral guilds that were really neutral (normal as Virg put it), we wouldn't have this problem. That is broken. Mara camp is broken. Is it RP that I have to make extra characters to make dappers? Probably not. Come at me. Flame me but make sure you flame yourself first becaues you know you are just as wrong as I am. Please give me more reason to laugh at your amazing RP that makes you a better player than I am. Why don't we limit teams and chat as well by faction and civ. Let's be like every game out there, that works right? Would help us become an awesome community again.
Thanks again for the laughs, need more please.

@Subo: Oh yea that's why I said that given a choice between the two, I'd rather see new content in the next patch than a marauder "fix".

@Bones: All I said is that Ryzom will loose subs regardless, because a compromise cannot be reached. Both to rp people as well as non-rp people. A "normal" guild won't solve this problem, nope. It'll just piss off different people and loose their subs instead. And then I stated a fact to support the idea that _maybe_ we loose even more subs from rp people quitting. That was all, really. But I'm glad it made you laugh. Laughing is good. =)

I think for the last few years (and especially the Marauders) we have been the guinea pigs in preparation for advancements(? - errr more like the creation of more bugs and issues........) in the game.

I firstly dont agree with the way that the devs handled the implementation of the Marauder *organisation*/faction/WhateverTheHeckItIs.... and because of this I just see us (the player base) taking chunks out of each other or going around in circles: well if we cant why should you... well according to RP you cant do this that or the other...

The Lore was not properly addressed before the merging of the servers and the Marauder organisation was implemented in bits and pieces.

There is a lot of fixing that needs done in the game and I personally do not think THIS is as important.  Regardless of what I think personally the reality is the devs have left the player base to make do and we have made done and are now used to how things are even if we have to make alts to do NH.  I guess this is a bit like facebook and when they used to update it and there was an uproar until we all eventually got used to it... sadly I don't think the majority of us will have a say in this and we will just have to get used to it.

**Just so there is no confusion I still consider the Marauders as an organisation and I do not think they should be considered a faction and as such they should be treated in an organisation and be free to join any guild.**

The following things come to mind:

• Are there marauder-aligned guilds?
• Are marauders a faction, a race (nation) or an organization
  (IMHO an anti-nation+anti-faction org)
• Neutral guilds are the most restricted (all members have to be neutral)
• Pro-guilds are the most "open" (neutral + pro can join)
• pro-guilds don't "want" (from a RP perspective) no anti-their-own-alignment members
• The current alignment system doesn't work for marauders (unless we get 2 marauder fames - one for nation and one for faction leading to weird situations like )
• I've never seen the marauders as anti-cult/faction so I was really surprised when they were first introduced as an org

These things lead to the following logical rules for marauders/guilds:

• Marauders should be forbidden in Neutral guilds (pro is forbidden so anti should as well)
• Marauders should be forbidden in Pro-guilds
• Neutrals should be able to join marauder guilds
• We need 2 new fames (one could be renamed): atheists (new faction for anti) and deserters (new nation for anti)
• Marauder guards would have to check both fames
• A marauder guild would be atheist-deserter (and a trytonist guild would be atheist-neutral or atheist-some nation)
• If your fame goes below -50 for ALL factions you're no longer neutral but atheist (trytonist?)
• If your fame goes below -50 for ALL nations you're no longer neutral but a deserter
• It might be a good idea to create "open" guilds, where anybody can join,  but they would need some other kind of restriction instead (eg. having a guild hall which is just apartment sized)

I think it would be better for RP to allow players to do their decisions. It doesn't make sense that players are forced to do something. We'd have a much wider range of different social groups if we removed restrictions from guilds and gave them the chance to decide who to recruit.

I really don't think so, rubiksmomo. Most guilds don't push against the gameplay boundaries at all. They would remain the same regardless.