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#17 Added by Bitttymacod 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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tl;dr version: The arguments being advanced do not make sense to me. The proposed change is still probably a bad idea.

Detail:

Suboxide -- There's a big difference between all positive Fame and all negative Fame.

If Marauders want to be the "bad guys" as far as National and Cult Fame, they need to accept that self-selected fate. That means that a Guild that wants a high positive Fame with a Nation or a Cult shouldn't have them as members. Gameplay restrictions are set up to put a certain amount of consistency in "how things work."

By the way, I have not heard/seen anywhere that a neutral guild could not have Mara members, but if it's being treated as a Faction (which is what it seems to be heading towards), then that would be totally consistent with the rule that has always been in place that neutral guilds cannot have K/K members, and that K/K adherents cannot join a guild of the opposite Cult alignment.

Fame is not reciprocal. How other people regard you is not necessarily proportionate or reciprocal to how you regard them. (e.g. Bittty is a devout Jenaist, but does not belong to the Karavan Faction -- in fact he regards them with suspicion of being poor servants to their Goddess. He has good fame with them on the basis of his good works. The same applies to his fame with the Kami religion -- his personal beliefs have not interfered with his ability to treat courteously and generously with those of that religion.)

Rangers are the "good guys" (as far as Fame is concerned-- individual reputation may vary), and the rules for them are still being formulated (according to a remarkably open post in News). Heck, even once we are able to be official Rangers, the highest we're going to be able to get is +50 across the board, so we will never be BFF's with anyone, just homins of good repute. In addition, there has been no indication that a "Ranger Guild" is going to be possible except in roleplay.

Feno -- There is no change in the Rules except for the introduction of Marauders to full Faction/Cult status. The openness of Aris server had nothing to do with the game mechanic restricting guild membership; it was there *despite* the mechanics.

Soyeok -- I, too, have seen some of what you see as being lost, and I agree with you. I just don't think it's relevant to the arguments here.

Binarabi

LET'S GO FOR NO RACISM IN RYZOM

There is no racism in the gameplay rules. There is religious intolerance and nationalist jingoism, but no racism. Please use the right word when fighting intolerance (plenty of that to go around). (Bittty for the correct and precise use of language, be it EN, FR, DE, ES, or RU)

To ALL -- no one is saying, nor can they possibly enforce, that you need to give up your friendships, regardless of alignment.. What then, does "guild membership" mean? That you hang out with your friends? You need not share a badge to do that.

Having said all that and (I hope) made people on all sides equally irritated with me, I have to say that I agree that the imposition of a change of ruleset at this late day is a bad idea. The barn door has been open for far too long and the horse is over the horizon. I hope that Event/devs/support reading this reconsider the plan.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#18 Added by Suboxide 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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First of you gonna discus the use of english words with somebody for wich english is the 4the language he learned in shool? > i'm not gonna go there but for a non native english speaker we use what we have got

Seccondly yes bitty all your points are heavy RP inspired and that has no point anymore for me. I gave that up long time ago. Yes I'm Suboxide ingame a different person most likly then I'm in real life but thats ligth RP for me. Factions and races really don't intrest me anymore, I wanna login after a days work and relax with some friends while we play dress up dolls and try to help new ppl the best we can.

We don't own op's, actually we gave that up so we could be left alone and no longer be harrased by ppl with strong RP convictions that didn't like us or our members. Yes some of us still go to op's for fun and to support friends but there is no stance there really, there is the help ppl in their lands loose stand but it is not guild enforced since we want our guildies to make the choise.

Now onto the all positive and all negative fames, well mine for instance is from back on aristople where an event person (akilla) told me and some others to infiltrate the other guilds and factions. But yeah aristople is death and now we live on this sad server with no intollerance called Atys.

btw. If they wana make mara into a faction the place to start I think would be Silan where new homins can learn about the factions and races ingame and can make a first decission on where they go and so on. As long as Silan isn't addapted to mara then mara will always stay the way it is as an obscure (big atm) organisation.

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#19 Added by Soyeok 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Hello everyone, I am fairly new to this game and so far I am enjoying it for the most part although some people have been very nasty to me and rather rude but that is for another topic and time.

I am following the path as a Ranger and if i am understanding correctly the issues and arguments back-in-forth there seems to be more game restrictions that need to be put into play so that the game actually follows suit based upon what i am reading. I am also fairly new to role-playing based games so pardon me if i do not fully understand what is being said. The restrictions seem a little odd and the following statements is what I would suggest we follow if we are to truly have a realistic role-play environment.

If you are Kami aligned, you should only be able to have your Guildhall and Apartment on Kami soil (Jungle and Desert) and you should only be allowed to buy and sell items in those 2 respective lands. Same would apply for Kara aligned where you would only be able to to have your Guildhall and Apartment on Kara soil (Forest and Lakes) because I am not able to go into the Mara Camp and sit at the stables or make any purchases there without my head being chopped off.

If Marauders are not allowed inside any city by choice and game design then we should have all the same applied for both factions and really have a true role playing scenario and not just this "as it suits us" attitude. I see Kami/Kara/Neutrals and Mara all sitting with a CSR near a campfire in Fairhaven and no one seems to have an issue with that. Also, I have seen several different teams training and hunting bosses who are of different factions and no one seems to have an issue with that either but if you really want what is being suggested then we have to restrict "faction only" training and boss hunts should be included and any non-faction member wanting to join is automatically rejected from team and their guild should have a penalty applied. This should also apply to any faction OP Mat, Tools and Weapons where as if you or your guild has any of the opposing faction mat/tool/weapon inside your bag/apartment or guildhall, it should be destroyed immediately regardless because it is not nor was not produced using your own factions mat and that then would really put a real and true value on all OP because as i see it now, there really is no value because you can always trade with someone with out any penalty.

The issue i see with Neutrals is that we should be able to go anywhere and team with guilds who are aligned with our race even though we do not have any civilization alignment. Meaning, as a Zorai, I would only be allowed to help any guild who is civilization aligned with Zorai on OP defense only as long as on Zorai lands and nowhere else. But then we have the issue with as a Ranger my fame is positive with everyone as I would like to help all regardless of Faction or Alignment and that includes Marauders.

I think that this is a dangerous path we are headed towards because once we start this then everything has to and will change all based upon lore that has taken 10yrs or more to implement. Change is never easy and normally hard but change for the sake of change is no reason to change and change for a few at the expense of the many is a bad idea.

Finally, I agree with Suboxide, after school all i want to do is have fun, make new friends and not be harrashed which i have been all because of the company I keep.

Thank you :-)

Soyeok

PS, if anyone really wants to know how restrictions work, come to my world and walk in my footsteps here in China then see what is fair and how restrictions really affect and change people and then remember that we are all here to have fun from the horrors of reality...

#20 Added by Laofa 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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I answer only to the first subject, the off-topic about "what are mara" doesn't interest me.

I am rolist. Mainly. And french, too. 2 defect :P But I am agree with Binarabi. I think that guild should be able to accept everyone, with no faction restrictions.

Not only mara : all people.

-First, for non-rp people : guild exist only just to aggregate friends. Faction haven't sens for non-rp people, it's only sort of gameplay, and I understand that they want play together. Kami, Kara, mara, neutral, it's only human behind keyboard.

-Second, for rp-people : if a lot of guild accept only "their" faction (kami only with kami, kara only with kara, etc), there are other guild, too, who want promote "friendship through nation and faction". I remember a guild, on aniro, who want reconcile Kami and Kara in matis nation (open only for matis, but for kami/kara...). I play 2 years on aniro, and I meet a lot of rp-people who play "friendship rp", who say "they are our ennemies, but they are homin too, and if we can work with them, peace come on Atys". I think, for RP-people, the real war is between fanatics and peacekeepers. Fanatics want to kill all people who are not in their faction (or convert theim), peacekeepers want love and peace between all homin (and not "between player"... It's RP, it's for "homin" !).

There are fanatic and peacekeepers in rp, but, if they are only RP, it's not a problem (hey, I have fanatics toons too). Problem is when it's not only RP, with fanatics who don't accept that we can have friend who play differently. Or with peacekeepers who don't accept to have rigid rules ; nobody has "right" or "wrong", it's two different way, very different, and very easy to fight for that.

In french, we say "Vivre et laisser vivre" ("Live and let live" say Goo-trad, I hope it express the same thing). I like this sentence, so I like idea to allow people to choice their guild (and their gameplay, their rp, etc).

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Plus d'histoires ici.

#21 Added by Neela 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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My 2 cents on this.....

I'd would say I agree with the argument that a guild should be faction-less. Guilds should be about a group of people from all races and creed sharing a common goal. I've twice experienced civ or faction preventing me joining a guild and guild rules preventing me choosing a civ or faction.

A better implementation would be to keep civ for people of the same civ to group, faction for faction and guild for people to work toward a goal that doesn't involve faction/civ.

Following beta, most of my friends chose to create Matis toons while Doc and I chose Fyros. In those early days it didn't matter; until PvP was added. I went to the first PvP event and found I couldn't heal an old friend because they were now my 'enemy'. Never went near PvP again.

I don't think the faction/civ implementations have enhanced Ryzom at all and I don't think they're logical either where guilds are concerned.

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Elder Of Atys

Chasing the DING!

katriell

You can't "complete" the mainland. If one thinks one has seen or done everything there, one is kidding oneself. But be prepared to "get out what you put in," because the mainland does not coddle or hold hands.

Remickla (atys)

Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.

#22 Added by Lacuna 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Laofa (atys)

I answer only to the first subject, the off-topic about "what are mara" doesn't interest me.

I am rolist. Mainly. And french, too. 2 defect :P But I am agree with Binarabi. I think that guild should be able to accept everyone, with no faction restrictions.

Not only mara : all people.

-First, for non-rp people : guild exist only just to aggregate friends. Faction haven't sens for non-rp people, it's only sort of gameplay, and I understand that they want play together. Kami, Kara, mara, neutral, it's only human behind keyboard.

-Second, for rp-people : if a lot of guild accept only "their" faction (kami only with kami, kara only with kara, etc), there are other guild, too, who want promote "friendship through nation and faction". I remember a guild, on aniro, who want reconcile Kami and Kara in matis nation (open only for matis, but for kami/kara...). I play 2 years on aniro, and I meet a lot of rp-people who play "friendship rp", who say "they are our ennemies, but they are homin too, and if we can work with them, peace come on Atys". I think, for RP-people, the real war is between fanatics and peacekeepers. Fanatics want to kill all people who are not in their faction (or convert theim), peacekeepers want love and peace between all homin (and not "between player"... It's RP, it's for "homin" !).

There are fanatic and peacekeepers in rp, but, if they are only RP, it's not a problem (hey, I have fanatics toons too). Problem is when it's not only RP, with fanatics who don't accept that we can have friend who play differently. Or with peacekeepers who don't accept to have rigid rules ; nobody has "right" or "wrong", it's two different way, very different, and very easy to fight for that.

In french, we say "Vivre et laisser vivre" ("Live and let live" say Goo-trad, I hope it express the same thing). I like this sentence, so I like idea to allow people to choice their guild (and their gameplay, their rp, etc).

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#23 Added by Bones 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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If this was real life would I see a person's faction tag above his or her head??? I've never seen it and the only time I ever knew about somebody's religion or country of origin is when he or she told me what they were. Hard coding a restriction such as this only takes away realism while giving back only a headache. If there was no "hard coded" restriction we would have a better possibitlity for spies and even actively be able to try to "convert" someone to the religion or faction of choice. I don't know how much more RP than that it can get.
But he/she is teaming with the enemy!! How do you know for certain what is going on in that team chat or guild chat if you are not in it? Maybe they are doing RP?
I think it's far too late in the game to start this and if it was to go through it should be from neutral to aligned. You would have to earn the right by aligning to join a guild as a neutral, mara or ranger aspirant too if it's to be fair and equal.

#24 Added by Virg 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Personally I think the biggest mistake is forcing aligned players into only aligned guilds.

Anyone should be allowed to join a normal guild. (I use the word normal because neutral implies too much). Normal guilds should be the standard guild.

On top of this- players should have the option of aligning their guild specifically to Marauder/Kami/Kara/Tryker etc etc. This should give some sort of benefit- be it RP, a title or whatever and this also means that everyone within that guild has to follow that alignment. This means those 'hardcore roleplayers' (half of who don't have the imagination to think beyond the lore (there are of course some nice ones out there)) can be happy in their RP guilds.

This also means those who don't care much for RP but still want the option to be whatever alignment they want- can do so in a normal guild. To me I can't think of any good reason why homins from different backgrounds shouldn't be able to come together under one roof. The issue lies in that guild being alligned.
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So that I think would be the best compromise- still have the option of aligned guilds with some sort of benefit but allow 'normal' guilds to have any alignment.

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#25 Added by Placio 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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This is the original post that explained the problems that were being solved regarding the Marauders:

Tamarea (atys)

When the marauder rite has been added, there was not any specific "marauder fame": the Marauders were recognized by their all very negative fames only and not by a specific marauder positive one. This has caused problems with the marauder guards, who didn't recognized the Marauders so didn't defended them. Since then, the gameplay has been changed and a specific Marauders positive fame has been added: any Marauder has got a >50 Marauder fame now. That's the reason why the marauder guards protect Marauders now: they check their Marauder fame.

The old system (Marauder = all negative fames and not = marauder fame>50) is also the reason why there still have a "bug" with the guilds, who don't check the new "marauder fame" for the moment so don't recognize a Marauder and only see him as a factions-neutral and civilizations-neutral. This has to be fixed. A Marauder shouldn't be able to join a non marauder guild, as a Kara homin can't join a Kami one or a Fyros homin can't join a Matis one.

This old system (Marauder = all negative fames and not = marauder fame>50) causes also a technical problem with the forums: Marauders should not have access to "Factions-neutrals" forum neither to "Civilization-neutrals" one because they are not neutrals, they are "Marauders". This will have to be fixed too.

The current ability for a marauder to be in a civ/cult aligned guild is a bug. They are fixing it so that Maras will have to follow the same rules that already apply to all other homins.

Personally i think they could also adjust city guards to see the positive Mara fame, it is a joke that a mara can walk past guards just because their civ fame is up to -42 or whatever the magic number is.

Finally, I have no idea what the point of this thread is. Bina was the first person to reply to Tamarea's post, so this isn't a new issue. If anyone has an idea on how to improve guilds it should be posted in the ideas for ryzom section, Otherwise it seems this thread is just here for us to bash each other and the ryzom staff :(

#26 Added by Zendae 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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I agree with Placio

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Beauté, curiosité, virtuosité !

#27 Added by Rikutatis 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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+1 Placio. Perfect reasoning there.

On the issue of Rangers: There are no Rangers. Not yet. Marauders is already a finalized organization/faction. You can take a rite and become a marauder. Rangers do not exist yet as a coded organization. That's why "aspirant" rangers can be in any guild at the moment. I'm pretty sure once Rangers are implemented as an official organization, the same limitations will apply to them as well. That is, rangers in ranger guilds only. As it should be. So no point in complaining about it now and trying to compare the two.

On the issue of multi-faction, multi-race guilds as per Virg's suggestion: The idea has merit, but I think it'd be a waste of dev time because there are already other systems in place to facilitate that stye of play. You can make chat channels, multi-faction teams, leagues, etc. Proof of that is the successful Cookies group. They are a multi-faction, multi-race group of like minded individuals who use chat channels, leagues, teams etc to make their vision come to life. And they've been going on for quite some time now. So it works.

If you're such good friends and you want to stay guilded no matter what, then I'm sure switching to your guild's current alignment shouldn't be a problem at all. People have been doing this for the past 10 years.

Ryzom already offers more freedom than most theme park MMO's. In the other games choosing a race locks you into a particular faction and you can't even team with opposing factions. In Ryzom you can be a Zorai who chooses to align with the Karavan instead and join teams with marauders. If you ask me that's more than enough freedom.

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"We are Kami. We are here to be you. We are many as you are of many minds. We are one as you are one in Ma-Duk."

#28 Added by Virg 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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*Groan* We had this argument already on Marauder forum..

First things first. Marauders walking past guards.. You are not thinking through this properly. Say you are taking a Marauder rite- you wear full HA- you go do the rite. The only homins who know you are a marauder are the marauders themselves and whoever you decide to tell. We don't go running around with a big sign strapped to our backs that say 'HEY! I AM A MARAUDER! ATTACK ME!' (Some of us might but that is reflected in our RP by our fames). Marauders have every entitlement to be discreet.

So it makes perfect RP sense that guards won't know you are a marauder until you do more deeds that make you infamous, make you more well-known and then guards will know to attack you.

(EDIT: If any changes should be done its the FH guards freakishly big HP- makes no sense at all. Haven't been on recently so don't know if its been fixed but I doubt it).

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Secondly. Marauders are an organisation. We are a multi-national organisation that operates in all nations. Think of us like the Mafia. In that sense we aren't like a religion. I won't delve into that bit anymore but there are 'for' and 'against' in whether marauders should be in Kami/Kara guilds. Either way as Placio said this isn't an new issue so why is it being brought up now?

Last edited by Virg (10 years ago)

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#29 Added by Lacuna 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Virg (atys)

*Groan* We had this argument already on Marauder forum..

First things first. Marauders walking past guards.. You are not thinking through this properly. Say you are taking a Marauder rite- you wear full HA- you go do the rite. The only homins who know you are a marauder are the marauders themselves and whoever you decide to tell. We don't go running around with a big sign strapped to our backs that say 'HEY! I AM A MARAUDER! ATTACK ME!' (Some of us might but that is reflected in our RP by our fames). Marauders have every entitlement to be discreet.

So it makes perfect RP sense that guards won't know you are a marauder until you do more deeds that make you infamous, make you more well-known and then guards will know to attack you.

(EDIT: If any changes should be done its the FH guards freakishly big HP- makes no sense at all. Haven't been on recently so don't know if its been fixed but I doubt it).

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Secondly. Marauders are an organisation. We are a multi-national organisation that operates in all nations. Think of us like the Mafia. In that sense we aren't like a religion. I won't delve into that bit anymore but there are 'for' and 'against' in whether marauders should be in Kami/Kara guilds. Either way as Placio said this isn't an new issue so why is it being brought up now?

+1 for an rp explanation that makes far more sense than guards being superheros with supernatural powers of perception.

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#30 Added by Icus 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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[quote=Lacuna (atys)]

Virg (atys)

*Groan* We had this argument already on Marauder forum..

First things first. Marauders walking past guards.. You are not thinking through this properly. Say you are taking a Marauder rite- you wear full HA- you go do the rite. The only homins who know you are a marauder are the marauders themselves and whoever you decide to tell. We don't go running around with a big sign strapped to our backs that say 'HEY! I AM A MARAUDER! ATTACK ME!' (Some of us might but that is reflected in our RP by our fames). Marauders have every entitlement to be discreet.

So it makes perfect RP sense that guards won't know you are a marauder until you do more deeds that make you infamous, make you more well-known and then guards will know to attack you.

Yes, but you could also argue that guard would ask homins who are deliberately trying to hide their face (so, who they are) in a city to stop by and remove their helmet. (Same could also be said of anyone having a weapon in a city)

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#31 Added by Suboxide 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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> About why this is now on the agenda, this is because a csr has been gloating to us that is will soon be implemented.

> About tama saying it's a bug is kind of strange since when asked 4/5 years or so ago to csr's it was not regarded as a bug. It was also not dealth with as an bug or exploit. In RP it was even encouraged to be used.
If event team themself tell you in an RP event to join kami and kara guilds as mara undercover and convert them from inside then explain to me how same event team all off a sudden finds out about this bug.

=> sounds to me more like forcing something and hiding behind it being a bug.

This is the sad state I guess in ryzom where we the players that don't RP have to addapt or leave because SOME RP players can't cope with the fact some ppl play to relax and have fun; My mind is made up I'm tired of the harrasement on my adress, lets not forget the mess they did with the guards in FH (it is also strange that this bug was announced to be fixed around the time they removed the guards with their tail between their legs). If this anti GoS and Monks patch gets released I'll be f2p and pissed.

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