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#1 Added by Virg 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Right several topics have stemmed up and clearly people want a specific definition of what a marauder is- a very tricky question. One thing a marauder is not- is a complete copy of what the lore is. The lore is not a strict bible to follow, it is in fact a guildline to pick up if you so choose. I will not be delving into the RP side of what a marauder is- you can find that through guild reg and my roleplay posts if you want to find what I personally follow. This post will be about OC marauders and their involvement within the game. This is my own personal view- other marauders may not share this view.

First off I would really like to actually explain what marauders currently are within Ryzom and how their gameplay is affected. Basically what marauders are OC. So what is the marauder ogranization? To simply put it: Marauders are currently a black hole. You see, guilds go in, they never come out and furthermore they tend to vanish. So what is the reason for this? Why does every marauder experience a complete restriction on their gameplay whilst seemingly being in the most free organization? The answer is in fact three fold:

Player Bias: The players have an extremely strong anti-marauder hate pre-designed within them. Not surprising for an organization that has -50 fame in all factions and religions.
Complete lack of.. well anything: The marauder camp is in fact a hollow shell. Whilst it may have the essentials there are no missions, no rites (except the joining rite), no occupations, no.. well no sustenance.
Events: For whatever reason, marauders have no actual events. Many have been put forward, many have been planned, none have come. Furthermore marauders are increasingly banned from other events (take the FHF which was always open to everyone on Ari).

So now we have defined what Marauders are within Ryzom in OC terms. One particular question non-marauders should be asking themselves is: 'Why should I care?'. Well many players simply put won't care in a OC or RP way, but marauders are important for the game. Ryzom is a game that thrives from its small community, however, without PVP, that community would be non-existant. It adds that certain.. je ne sais quoi.. that little something which turns it into a worthwhile game for many to play. It gives a goal and most importantly it gives a reason for massive hoards of homins to meet up and have some fun. So estblishing that PVP is important for the survival of the game, how could marauders possibly be important to pvp? Well if the current change in OP wars haven't proved this I am not quite sure what will. Marauders, like some neutral guilds, are able to add a third prong to the OPs, making them more interesting and more exciting. Did you notice the complete lack of fun OP wars when the entire marauder faction up and left?

So.. PVP is important for Ryzom, Marauders are important for PVP. That is my thinking. Now back to the three issues causing this black hole I mentioned earlier:

Player Bias: This will happen. Of course it will- but many players are forgetting something. The factions were designed in a 'like 2, hate 1' manner. The Trykers are against the Zorai and vice versa. The Matis are against the Fyros and vice versa. Oh sure its fine all directing your hate at the Marauders but in essence without these conflicts Ryzom becomes a much more boring place.
Complete lack of.. well anything: This is on the higher powers. Please don't go starting Trytonists until you have sorted this out. More hollow content is not what the game needs.
Events: Well how to approach this. Considering the current situation above, it would be nice if players could take this into account. Your 'roleplay' does not hold you back and your hands are not tied by it. There are always reasons that can be factored into a reason for not excluding marauders. Also if you are going to exclude us, don't have the blooming ET spawn invisible or invincible guards to kill us. That is not roleplay- that is cowardice.

So I am not exactly painting the current Marauder organization in a good light I am? No of course not but I am not afraid to say it like it is. I believe that Marauders are needed within this game and well.. I love this game. Marauders are something which requires a lot of work and if you are sat there thinking you are someone willing to put that work in for the game you love then perhaps why not come and sign up? It won't be easy but then its actually hard to find things in Ryzom that aren't easy- and they are the things you get the most reward out of. With more marauders and marauder guilds we can get activities up and running again and we can have some real fun whilst doing so. In essence the marauder organization reminds me of pirates of the Caribbean- one of my favorite films.

So that's basically it from me. Marauders, imo, are essential for the game. It isn't an easy organization to work in- but a real challenge is more rewarding. I hope I have cleared things up for anyone who is confused. I will also add, despite all the aforementioned problems with marauders, I love playing one and I will continue to fight for the organization I believe in.

Please don't bother with RP discussions in this thread. This is for OC.

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#2 Added by Naema 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Virg

Player Bias: The players have an extremely strong anti-marauder hate pre-designed within them. Not surprising for an organization that has -50 fame in all factions and religions.
Complete lack of.. well anything: The marauder camp is in fact a hollow shell. Whilst it may have the essentials there are no missions, no rites (except the joining rite), no occupations, no.. well no sustenance.
Events: For whatever reason, marauders have no actual events. Many have been put forward, many have been planned, none have come. Furthermore marauders are increasingly banned from other events (take the FHF which was always open to everyone on Ari).

Bullet point 1: Agreed, some have not read any of the lore about marauders and only view them as criminals. But, they are not, and such homins who think they are criminals need to read up on who they are and why

Point 2: A little birdie told me they are getting a Dev team member to be involved with marauder events as soon as January. Since they do not have any government meetings and so on, it is hard for marauders to influence the life of Atys at the moment, so plz be patient and we will see if it pans out. the birdie could be lying... :/ ~I will shoot it personally if it is :D

Point 3: I ask: If you had a full marauder agenda supported by the event team, would you care if you were excluded from certain events? I think it would add to the flavor of the roleplay on Atys if we ALL were supported in our roleplay and could act out our positions on certain things, even if it excluded certain homins. Reason below...

(On another subject, but still related: I understand the 'master of arms' event sponsored by certain Matis involving Pvp, was spoken about 9 months ago. If people want to be more involved in these events they need to go to the government meetings no matter how boring they may be. Link to follow after I check where it was, will edit: ok, here it is:
Forums/General/English/#121~Public appeal for Weapons master and Master of Arms.]

ps. It was to find a member willing to lead the Matis Army, display his characterisics and ability.
It seems to me this should only be a Matis event, or for those loyal to the Matis kingdom, not those apposed to it, like marauders, fyros, or anybody for that matter.

pss. Later is was pointed out to me it was not to determine who that person would be, but only it would be that persons ability to sponsor an event and put it on, which in turn means, anybody could come and enjoy it and be involved. That is ok with me.

non-the-less, my opinion is, there should be latitude for exclusive events to be planned and people not to complain about not being invited. If they are upset, they can roleplay their own event in opposition to it. That would be wonderful and spicy! As it is, there is not much of this anyways, so its not a big deal. If it became such a big deal, then maybe I would change my position. But bring it on I say, lets see what happens!

Last edited by Naema (10 years ago)

#3 Added by Maximus 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Hey Virg, I think your analysis is pretty much on point.

Regarding PvP. The Marauder faction was created to be a "pvpers factions". While this seems logical, it actually killed the PVP on Aniro. Why ? Because, before that, the compositions of the nation-states and of the factions was balanced. There were all sorts of players in every faction. But once the Marauder faction came to life, it attracted most PvP players and... There had nobody to fight anymore, because they all united together :-). It also killed the emulation for PvP. When you play with people who like to that, you tend to try it and maybe even a bit more. When you have nobody who likes that around you, you probably won't be bothered to try. So indeed, for this, the Marauders are kind of a black hole.

Regarding the lack of events, you have to take a look at how Ryzom does work. The whole Marauder faction idea was pushed by some players, who actually wanted to play like, and who successfully pushed the idea through so that it was implemented in game. You also have to realize that the Ryzom teams are mostly staffed with players (voluntaries).

I could probably speculate at how it went. Some players actually entered the event team to push the idea, started working on it, did a few events, but never bothered to finish what they started, hoping that someone else would do the dirty work, what was partly done by the way. You can pretty much see that the marauder Lore was never finished, since it is not as complete as other factions lore. It also means that the events should be managed by non-marauder voluntaries, and maybe those did not really want to invest their time in something that was pushed on them for "shady and interested reasons".

Furthermore, Marauder faction took all the focus of the dev team for really a long time. If I could, I would have given you the link fo the topic where Ulukyn explained why and how they decided to implement the Marauders (alas, it disappread with the merge of the forums). And in the end, the result of all this years long development is what you have at your disposition. And as we can see from topics popping all around, players want more than what actually exists.

You have to add to that the fact that the ryzom voluntary teams are now REALLY spread thin, and when I say, spread thin, it is a real euphemism. At any given time, there are around 5 to 10 people working part time on all the ongoing projects (and there are a lot, and new ones every now and then). You also have to realize that the staff turnover is quite high. So what one person starts is sometimes taken over by someone else (best caste scenario) or abandoned (usual scenario).

And just try to see how many factions there are in game, how many projects, and since this is not the battle of Britain, so few cannot do so much :-P

So maybe Marauders are essential. But the question is more like : is it a viable faction ?
Is it cost effective to have people working on them ?

Regarding the exclusive events, I agree with Naema.

#4 Added by Binarabi 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Maximus (atys)

Hey Virg, I think your analysis is pretty much on point.

Regarding PvP. The Marauder faction was created to be a "pvpers factions". While this seems logical, it actually killed the PVP on Aniro. Why ? Because, before that, the compositions of the nation-states and of the factions was balanced. There were all sorts of players in every faction. But once the Marauder faction came to life, it attracted most PvP players and... There had nobody to fight anymore, because they all united together :-). It also killed the emulation for PvP. When you play with people who like to that, you tend to try it and maybe even a bit more. When you have nobody who likes that around you, you probably won't be bothered to try. So indeed, for this, the Marauders are kind of a black hole.
...
So maybe Marauders are essential. But the question is more like : is it a viable faction ?
Is it cost effective to have people working on them ?

+1 Maximus

I think maybe remove them altogether - can we discuss that?

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Binarabi
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. (Bill Hicks)

#5 Added by Marceline 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Binarabi (atys)

I think maybe remove them altogether - can we discuss that?

OI!!

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marceline nitwit.
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atys's first openly transgender homina.
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Douglas (atys)

“What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in the ground underneath a giant boulder you can't move, with no hope of rescue. Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your current circumstances seems more likely, consider how lucky you are that it won't be troubling you much longer.”

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#6 Added by Binarabi 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Might work tho - Trytonists could have the tp's, all maurader fames get reset to 0, pvpers go into whereever they want?

No more feeling like the outcasts in terms of game provision, tidies up the Lore - being as the interpretations of the Lore are so radically different, and all factions/ alliances get pvpers back - bit like Nizyros heading back to Kami/ Tryker (tho as a Fyros ... but think Peatpom adopted him ...)

Anyway, thought it might be worth a discussion, for once we might not rip each other's heads off ...

PS Suppose arguments would then get transferred to Trytonists ...

Last edited by Binarabi (10 years ago)

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#7 Added by Marceline 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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yep, i think the same issues would arise with Trytonists as an entity. It'd be moving the problem from one place to another. I think there's less Trytonists than there are marauder and thus, less attention from the powers that be.
I don't think the mara organisation should be deleted, though i dare say numerous players would rejoice if it was. I have no idea what a solution could be, as there cleary aren't enough people working behind the scenes to deal with all the issues that arise from this game. Focus will be placed on the things that matter for the largest group of players (kami/kara), i suppose it's a case of "can't please all the people all the time".

It would be nice to add some lore for the mara's... what is there now is the bare essentials, nothing more. Though, is lore even necessary? probably not for mara, perhaps just for other people.

---

marceline nitwit.
professional procrastinator.
atys's first openly transgender homina.
loyal member of the guardians of subox.
founding member of the cookies.
proud honorary member of the Lost Girls.

Douglas (atys)

“What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in the ground underneath a giant boulder you can't move, with no hope of rescue. Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your current circumstances seems more likely, consider how lucky you are that it won't be troubling you much longer.”

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#8 Added by Maximus 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Marceline (atys)

yep, i think the same issues would arise with Trytonists as an entity. It'd be moving the problem from one place to another. I think there's less Trytonists than there are marauder and thus, less attention from the powers that be.
I don't think the mara organisation should be deleted, though i dare say numerous players would rejoice if it was. I have no idea what a solution could be, as there cleary aren't enough people working behind the scenes to deal with all the issues that arise from this game. Focus will be placed on the things that matter for the largest group of players (kami/kara), i suppose it's a case of "can't please all the people all the time".

It would be nice to add some lore for the mara's... what is there now is the bare essentials, nothing more. Though, is lore even necessary? probably not for mara, perhaps just for other people.

If I may, I think the Mara faction never has been the focus of the largest group of players before. On Aniro, there was so few people who really wanted in that to justify its creation, we were said that the creation of this faction was one of the biggest wishes on both Arispotle and Leanon.

Regarding the lore, I think you could try to fill it, send it to the event team and ask for it to be validated and then added to the official lore. If I were them I'd accept this help.

But it's much work though. You have to align the FR/EN/DE versions, agree on an interpretation of the official lore, take out what's not necessary, agree on what is necessary, try to find out if there is documentation that has not made public yet about the faction, to factor it in in the lore writing job. See if there is any clue of what the Event wants or does not want.

You'd also have to factor the language things, like poor translations either in French, or English, or German, which could have brought different interpretations, and so on.

Maybe we could ask to create a proper lore project called "Ryzom Lore Forge" centered around the official Lore Wiki ?

Regarding the scrapping of the Marauder faction, it's also a possibility.

Please note, regarding the trytonists, that this faction is way way way older than the Marauders.

#9 Added by Virg 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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As you said Naema, if there were more marauder events I wouldn't worry about being excluded from others. I just think at the current time it would be nice if everyone was aware of the current OC situation and worked together. For example, marauders aren't invited to a Matisian event and many Matis put forward good reasons for that. How about the recent events where a Marauder has led the Matis faction (inc. nobles) into war and they followed? How about Marauders playing a big role in winning back Westgrove Outpost? Could this torunament not be a celebration of finally seeing that outpost return to them? Therefore could all not be invited? Like I said, if we had our events (and I understand the reasons why we currently do not), this would not be an issue. However players need to look at the game in a RP manner and a non-RP manner and be aware of the situation around them. It is just a game- I get that. It is however a game I love and want to see continue running.

Max you are right about Marauders being the pvp faction. That has slightly changed now and PVPers are more spread everywhere. I know the event team is spread thin and this post was not meant to sound derogatory towards them. Was just hoping that Trytonists aren't added too soon otherwise will be two unfinished organizations.

I know many want to see the rise of Trytonists but removing Marauders and then implementing Trytonists would, as Marc and Bina said, just shift the problems from one to another. Furthermore it would be worse as Trytonists have even less of a starting ground.

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#10 Added by Maximus 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Well the thing is that Trytonists are already living in the nation-states. They're part of the landscape. It's just that, lorewise, they are more of a "secret" faction. Let's say they are more story-driven than gameplay-driven. Anyway, if there's nobody to take care of them, the problem would still be the same I guess.

As it stands, it wouldn't take much effort to have them play a role on Atys. All the story prerequisites are almost in place. There just needs to be a will to have things go forward (which is the hard part).

#11 Added by Marceline 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Maximus (atys)

Marceline (atys)
yep, i think the same issues would arise with Trytonists as an entity. It'd be moving the problem from one place to another. I think there's less Trytonists than there are marauder and thus, less attention from the powers that be.
I don't think the mara organisation should be deleted, though i dare say numerous players would rejoice if it was. I have no idea what a solution could be, as there cleary aren't enough people working behind the scenes to deal with all the issues that arise from this game. Focus will be placed on the things that matter for the largest group of players (kami/kara), i suppose it's a case of "can't please all the people all the time".

It would be nice to add some lore for the mara's... what is there now is the bare essentials, nothing more. Though, is lore even necessary? probably not for mara, perhaps just for other people.

If I may, I think the Mara faction never has been the focus of the largest group of players before. On Aniro, there was so few people who really wanted in that to justify its creation, we were said that the creation of this faction was one of the biggest wishes on both Arispotle and Leanon.

Regarding the lore, I think you could try to fill it, send it to the event team and ask for it to be validated and then added to the official lore. If I were them I'd accept this help.

But it's much work though. You have to align the FR/EN/DE versions, agree on an interpretation of the official lore, take out what's not necessary, agree on what is necessary, try to find out if there is documentation that has not made public yet about the faction, to factor it in in the lore writing job. See if there is any clue of what the Event wants or does not want.

You'd also have to factor the language things, like poor translations either in French, or English, or German, which could have brought different interpretations, and so on.

Maybe we could ask to create a proper lore project called "Ryzom Lore Forge" centered around the official Lore Wiki ?

Regarding the scrapping of the Marauder faction, it's also a possibility.

Please note, regarding the trytonists, that this faction is way way way older than the Marauders.

Yep yep, i was meaning the focus will always be on Kami and Kara.. i know that the main focus will never be on Marauders or Trytonists. That's what i mean by "can't please all the people all the time" - the powers that be have to go with the majority. I guess it's simply business.

I see how the lore will be an absolute nightmare to write in. Having to get validation and interpretations from the main language communities is no easy feat. I'm not saying it should be done.. just that it would have been nice to have been there at the time of the mara organisation's creation.

And yes, i know the Trytonists have been a thing for a lot longer... i was told about them when i first started playing and read about them on various texts. I suppose the secretive nature of the faction kept it from becoming a proper in game thing and forced it to remain an RP only zone.
Off topic, but a guildie has written up an RP event incorporating Trytonists and the lore... as far as i know, the event team basically shunned it.

+1 to the 'Ryzom Forge Lore' idea. Could be useful to a number of people... though could also create yet more animosity.

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marceline nitwit.
professional procrastinator.
atys's first openly transgender homina.
loyal member of the guardians of subox.
founding member of the cookies.
proud honorary member of the Lost Girls.

Douglas (atys)

“What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in the ground underneath a giant boulder you can't move, with no hope of rescue. Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your current circumstances seems more likely, consider how lucky you are that it won't be troubling you much longer.”

What Cookies is about ---- Contact Cookies ---- Cookies at Events ---- For Cookies Diggers and Crafters

#12 Added by Icus 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Might work tho - Trytonists could have the tp's,

Let me grab some popcorn and watch as the Kuild takes every homin who use them for "interrogation" :D

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#13 Added by Binarabi 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Icus (atys)

Let me grab some popcorn and watch as the Kuild takes every homin who use them for "interrogation" :D

*pours sticky goo all over Icus's popcorn*

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#14 Added by Fyrosfreddy 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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I don't have any issue with any of the "lack of" arguments you make.. where I will take issue is the "Jessica Mulligan" mindset Let's remember that when PvP was introduced we lost > 50% of our player base on Ari. Im not saying that most MMO players don't like PvP, what I am saying is they were plenty of PvP games out there and, at the time, Ryzom was one of the only places out there that wasn't so they flocked here... even WoW soon after had 50% of their servers non PvP. For new players, they have no memory of this time, back them there were dozens of "neutral guilds" .. Armada was one of the first and largest.. sorry Bittty :)

I have no problem with the addition of all the PvP action you could desire.. and I understand the "why don't we get any love" position you are in... but the future of the game is not not secured if one faction survives the way it wants to.... the future of the game depends more on whether it can satisfy the needs and desires of as many types of players as possible, within reason.

What I don't understand is the "we want what we want ..... and we don't want players w/ different views and approaches to the game to have what they want". Personally I don't think the Maruders thing was well thought out. For example, I'd like to see the Occ masters outside the cities for example so anyone with the req'd amount of dappie could participate.

As we saw on Ari, the player base after a time allowed for players to do whatever they wanted with forcing anything on anyone and the player base actually worked to provide a balance in PvP between the factions because it was readily realized that "winning" (crushing opposing faction) was losing as there'd be no on left to PvP. When this happened, we actually say a significant influx of player swith many of them returning old-timers. This would appear as what's behind the devs efforts in recent years with Trytonists, Rangers and Marauders.

However I'd say the biggest threat to the game is not what the devs haven't been able to get in yet for those groups, it's the potential for having the game set up and specifically idealized for one group of players the way they want and to the detriment of everyone with a different approach.

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#15 Added by Rollocks 10 years ago Report | Quote [en]

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Virg (atys)

[*]Events: For whatever reason, marauders have no actual events. Many have been put forward, many have been planned, none have come. Furthermore marauders are increasingly banned from other events (take the FHF which was always open to everyone on Ari).
[/list]

Poppycock!! There was an event, one hell of an event. Not only are you physically short, but so is your memory!!

Rollocks

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