Punishment Declares - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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#33 Added by Fyrosfreddy 10 years ago [en]

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As you all know, I don't do PvP and I am dismayed at what it does to the game.... namely create threads like this. But the complaining here seems contradictory and ingenuous. With all the focus on RP excusing bad behavior, isn't that what the faction war is all about ? To completely dominate / eliminate the other faction. If it's OK to kill the other faction in PR .... even a neutral non PvP player in PR, in the name of Role Play, then why would it not be completely in the vein of RP and the lore to wipe the other faction from the face of the planet ? Of course peeking around from the RP veil, that doesn't fare well for the game as who is there left to fight ? So yes, it's not good for the game, but neither is killing peeps that have no interest in PvP simply because they '"dared" to enter PR.

So while domination is not good for the game, it is perfectly in line with the RP. How does the RP mantra which serves as the excuse for so much bad behavior, get so easily set aside when it doesn't benefit one side's interests. On Ari, we reached a point where balance was actively promoted. We had "community OPs" which both factions contributed to to distribute OP produce to all guilds. The more powerful faction would attack OPs, win them, and then give them back two weeks later. There were neutral guilds that "promoted balance" with a KLIKHx2 philosophy (Kami Lands in Kami Hands / Kara Lands in Kara Hands). None of that is permissible here "in the name of Role Play". If a Faction A Guild chooses to show up and defend a Faction B Guild say from a Marauder attack, Faction B will walk away..... all in the name of Role Play.

I agree, "greed' seems to be a primary motivator for **some** members of both factions, and certainly no less so for those with the disadvantage as those with the advantage. What is more disappointing, and this is new in the rootball in my experience, is that it is now less about having "the goodies" and more about "keeping the goodies" away from the other guys.

Most peeps who enjoy competition work from a mantra "to be the best, you gotta beat the best". If you are beating the other side because it's not a fair fight because you have access to gear that the other side doesn't, it's really not something to beat ya chest about.

As for the punishment issue, as someone who doesn't get involved in OP battles, looking from the outside repeatedly attacking an OP with no change in the result, I can view it in no other way but harrassment. Yes, I know what the CoC says:

"When declaring war on one or several OP at a time, if you don't attend at least one of these attacks with a number of players reasonably sufficient to pass the threshold against the NPC defense squadrons alone, it is considered harassment."

But really what is the point ? If you made an attack and came up just short of the threshold, by all means come back and try again. But if you failed miserably in the last attack and then declare again against the same OP with the same cast of characters, how much fun is it for the peeps who came to defend facing no challenge / enjoyment whatsoever. Let's be honest .... the only fun to be had there is annoying the other side who are taken away from more interesting and / or challenging endeavors that they would like to have pursued instead.

If attacking the OP in the 1st place is good role play, then how is responding and attacking the attacker not role play ? Whether a behavior is good or bad, should not depend on what side you're on. The Role Play hat is not something that can be taken on and off only when it fits one side of the argument. Personally, I'd like to see that hat burned. While I have no objection to RP, using it as a veil for self interest and disrespectful behavior is something I find disingenuous.

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#34 Added by Elvanae 10 years ago [en]

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Fyrosfreddy (atys)

As you all know, I don't do PvP and I am dismayed at what it does to the game.... namely create threads like this. But the complaining here seems contradictory and ingenuous. With all the focus on RP excusing bad behavior, isn't that what the faction war is all about ? To completely dominate / eliminate the other faction. If it's OK to kill the other faction in PR .... even a neutral non PvP player in PR, in the name of Role Play, then why would it not be completely in the vein of RP and the lore to wipe the other faction from the face of the planet ? Of course peeking around from the RP veil, that doesn't fare well for the game as who is there left to fight ? So yes, it's not good for the game, but neither is killing peeps that have no interest in PvP simply because they '"dared" to enter PR.

So while domination is not good for the game, it is perfectly in line with the RP. How does the RP mantra which serves as the excuse for so much bad behavior, get so easily set aside when it doesn't benefit one side's interests. On Ari, we reached a point where balance was actively promoted. We had "community OPs" which both factions contributed to to distribute OP produce to all guilds. The more powerful faction would attack OPs, win them, and then give them back two weeks later. There were neutral guilds that "promoted balance" with a KLIKHx2 philosophy (Kami Lands in Kami Hands / Kara Lands in Kara Hands). None of that is permissible here "in the name of Role Play". If a Faction A Guild chooses to show up and defend a Faction B Guild say from a Marauder attack, Faction B will walk away..... all in the name of Role Play.

I agree, "greed' seems to be a primary motivator for **some** members of both factions, and certainly no less so for those with the disadvantage as those with the advantage. What is more disappointing, and this is new in the rootball in my experience, is that it is now less about having "the goodies" and more about "keeping the goodies" away from the other guys.

Most peeps who enjoy competition work from a mantra "to be the best, you gotta beat the best". If you are beating the other side because it's not a fair fight because you have access to gear that the other side doesn't, it's really not something to beat ya chest about.

As for the punishment issue, as someone who doesn't get involved in OP battles, looking from the outside repeatedly attacking an OP with no change in the result, I can view it in no other way but harrassment. Yes, I know what the CoC says:

"When declaring war on one or several OP at a time, if you don't attend at least one of these attacks with a number of players reasonably sufficient to pass the threshold against the NPC defense squadrons alone, it is considered harassment."

But really what is the point ? If you made an attack and came up just short of the threshold, by all means come back and try again. But if you failed miserably in the last attack and then declare again against the same OP with the same cast of characters, how much fun is it for the peeps who came to defend facing no challenge / enjoyment whatsoever. Let's be honest .... the only fun to be had there is annoying the other side who are taken away from more interesting and / or challenging endeavors that they would like to have pursued instead.

If attacking the OP in the 1st place is good role play, then how is responding and attacking the attacker not role play ? Whether a behavior is good or bad, should not depend on what side you're on. The Role Play hat is not something that can be taken on and off only when it fits one side of the argument. Personally, I'd like to see that hat burned. While I have no objection to RP, using it as a veil for self interest and disrespectful behavior is something I find disingenuous.

I am making the assumption that you discussed RP in your post because of my initial post where I say that I addressed the situation in the RP forum thread. So let me explain why I did that...

The circumstances that brought about this thread were not instigated with an RP approach. As far as I am aware, TO did not continually declare on the basis of RP and the Kami did not retaliate on the basis of RP either.

They were instigated by Kami players who filed tickets about TO's "harrassment" declares. I understand that the response to these tickets was not found to be acceptable by those who filed them. The latter, in absence of a reasonable punishment from the GMs, took it upon themselves to punish TO. Surely the CoC is for the GMs to enforce and not the players themselves... That's why Virg felt strongly to post this thread.

Personally, I was not aware of the tickets, the number of declared TO made nor that some Kami felt it was harrassment. To me and, I can confidently say, many other Karavan, we were a bit confused as to why the Kami made the declare. Just like you mention in your post, some of us, inclduing myself, come from the Ari server where, like you say, a certain balance was promoted that is evidently missing from this server.

When I posed the question in uni chat, it was not in RP mode, in fact, I had never really RPed before... The situation really upset me and talking with some friends, it was suggested I try out RP. It felt a perfect time for me to do so and hence I wrote my first post on the RP section of the forums and have continued to develop the story.

This forum post is a completely out of context non-RP discussion about the situation.

The Kami did not and have not approached this in an RP context (apart from Mjollren interjecting in the RP thread very briefly). So I don't understand your comments regarding RP. I didn't see any other way to deal with the situation. I want to continue to enjoy the game and I have found a new way to enjoy Ryzom and it is as simple as that from my perspective. I keep re-reading your post but it is still not very clear to me.

To go back to the punishment issue, it is clearly a case of, as I described above, their lack of accepting the response to their tickets. They took it upon themselves to punish because they can and because they wanted to.

Following my... outburst... it was not the slightest bit surprising that my guild's Q100 Maga OP was declared upon with a huge number of Kamis attending. Even after the server reboot, they re-declared.

PvP can be fun. The issue is not the PvP, its the emotions that drive people to act in certain ways. But then again, thats just human nature isnt it, and we all fall prey to it at some time or another. It is saddening, in my opinion, that it has reached to this stage though.

Sadly, I do not feel that any amount of discussing is going to change the situation as it is now.

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#35 Added by Fyrosfreddy 10 years ago [en]

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Elvanae .... No I wasn't responding to your post, in fact i didn't read your post. I was responding to the postulation that responding to an attack with an attack is somehow "wrong". Under the reason given for the repeated attacks, the response is not only entirely to be expected but I'm surprised it wasn't done immediately. If taking the OP was done w/o even the repeated annoyance attacks ever occurring, how would that be wrong if RP is to always take precedence of what is good for game.

As for the tickets .... if someone repeatedly asked me to duel day after day after day, I would file a harassment ticket. If someone repeatedly chose to fight mobs repeatedly where I was digging, I would file a harassment ticket. It's annoying and detracts from the enjoyment of the game. The GMs can act as they see fit. If no action resulted, I would react in one of two ways:

a) As one whose focus and enjoyment from the game is in helping and cooperative activities with other folk, completely ignore the individual.
b) If it continued w/ action by the GMs or community, recognize that this is the no longer the community that I wanted to be a part of and add my name to the rapidly growing list of former players.

Again, speaking as a bystander who has no interest in OP battles, to my eyes repeated attacks, with no real effort put forth to actually win, appear to have the sole purpose of annoying and frustrating the defenders. My reference to RP is completely unrelated to your post and completely unrelated to the repeated attacks and counter attack actions **in and of themselves**. Under RP, aren't the factions supposed to try and obliterate the other ? I reference RP here only as a symptom of that philosophy.

Various adjectives could be used to describe certain behaviors I have observed in game, none flattering, but all excusable under the guise of RP. So no it's not the reaction to the attacks but the mindset that RP already makes any and all behaviors "OK" that I am addressing.

If you are going to repeatedly conduct a behavior that the recipient obviously finds disrespectful and annoying, one should never be surprised by the eventual response..... here's an example of that in the extreme.

http://www.funnyjunk.com/movies/1816028/Bully/

Where I am getting lost is what's the difference between:

a) You ... yada yada yada .... attacked us xx times ...yads yada yada .... it's annoying and extremely boring.... yada yada ytada .... we are taking your OP.
b) You are in the other faction and the lore says the factions hate each other, so we are going to take the OP.

If we are going to accept the axiom that faction RP takes precedence over everything else, no excuse is needed for any action.

Last edited by Fyrosfreddy (10 years ago)

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#36 Added by Marceline 10 years ago [en]

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The way i see it is:

From and RP perspective, wanting to take over all the outposts is perfectly fine. It's what powers that be would want.

"Huzzah! we, the Kami, have finally defeated the Karavan scum." - then march them back to their space doodahs.

But, in a game as small a this one has become, that mentallity has to have a line drawn somewhere. The player must step back and think, 'if we take all these op's and leave the kara with nothing, minimal as they already are, what will happen?'.
There needs to be an element of real world thought in the RP at this stage with regards to the outposts. If the kami owned all the OP's in game then not only would it make OP wars really, really boring for the Kami (and likewise the kara if the roles were reversed) but it would also leave the real world people behind the kara toons feeling disheartened.

Roleplay and real life attitudes are getting blurred and i think that's the main problem, though blurring it further could help, for example; the Kami won Elv's op.. well done! now, drop the roleplay and give it back for the sake of the game. You don't need it really in the grand scheme of things. You've got your glory and your ego is boosted that little bit more.

I know this will never happen, but if i was in control of the Kami or simply an outpost, then this is what i would do in order to keep the OP battles flowing. If one side owns them all then there will, give or take, be no OP wars... perhaps some minor skermishes but nothing notable. The weaker side will grow tired of losing and eventually give up altogether.

Of course, the Kara can attack as much as they like as they are the weaker faction (numbers-wise) and are far less likely to win at say a 250 OP. And it would be fun if they did... more battles, more fighty fighty fun fun and more PVP for those that want it. Unfortunately, the kara side doesn't have as many super rich folk that are willing to blow millions of dappers on an, essentially, futile pursuit.

I'm losing my train of thought now as i'm rushing and need to head off to work.... Hope what i was trying to say has been conveyed.

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Douglas (atys)

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#37 Added by Virg 10 years ago [en]

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FF all I am saying is that I personally want more OP wars in the game. Lots of people do- just see all the ideas posted up every month for the last 2 years and you can see that.

Attacking someone to try and beat them into submission so they don't attack again is just stupid. They aren't attacking for fun and they certainly aren't attacking for the q100 OP mats. They are simply attacking to make the karavan (TO in this case) stop attacking. This is supported by the fact they actually send tickets when TO declare.

Many people postulate different reasons for the lack of OP wars- I am seeing a pretty big reason right here- When the biggest faction doesn't want OP wars and try everything in their power to stop them.

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#38 Added by Binarabi 10 years ago [en]

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Well - are there any kami we can ask to stop recruiting high skilled returners to game? Ask them to go kara?

Or

Forget about op battles, and do something else - event team are prob raring to go on some good Matis v Fyros stuff - Trykers are trading water and beer with Fyros ... and rumour has it we might be trading weapons as well ... maybe Trykers and Fyros might be secretly plotting - and who is this long lost twin brother of wotsit?

If you do not get the response you want ... then change your behaviour, being as doing the same thing over and over just gets depressing/ daft

I love Elv's role play - think she makes a great slightly-pompous matis - and Virg is wonderful as her bit-of-rough - dunno if this coz it is very UK english tho - do they have stuff like that in USA/ other countries? (Educated posh woman marries blue collar worker?)

And I have given up on wanting any more op wars - they were as boring as hell when I was kami, they are for most of kami I think - but we are having difficulty thinking outside the box with this one - and no ops does NOT equal no game for me - role play has opened up a whole new way of playing.

I cannot change anyone else - I can change me, I can go to meetings, I can read posts about meetings in other civs (must check those nasty kara guards sometime - Marceline just thinks I am potty!), I can check lore and see if I can possibly think of some event that all can be involved in - preferably killing - and get it to the meetings.

Role play means Binarabi becomes separated from the real me - so if anyone is a git to her - it is her problem, not mine, and this is a nice change

There are some role play homins who are willing to meet with others and explain what they do - and yes, there are some bodoc-role players (Think Jazzy means stuck-in-ways and slow moving and a bit not-bright). Some role players are from old Aris - where they were not happy being as it was pretty much all about being high level and having friends in the right places - role play means it really does not matter - can just play here and have fun. If the game lives or dies by its op wars we are stuffed but I think Atyss is alive because of its role play as well as the really varied people here driving their characters

Hmm - back to game :))

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Binarabi
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. (Bill Hicks)

#39 Added by Marceline 10 years ago [en]

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bina! did you just call a marauder a "blue collar worker"?

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marceline nitwit.
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loyal member of the guardians of subox.
founding member of the cookies.
proud honorary member of the Lost Girls.

Douglas (atys)

“What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in the ground underneath a giant boulder you can't move, with no hope of rescue. Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your current circumstances seems more likely, consider how lucky you are that it won't be troubling you much longer.”

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#40 Added by Elvanae 10 years ago [en]

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Fyrosfreddy (atys)

I still don't understand why you talk about RP.

If both sides did not, at the time, approach the declares with RP in mind, how can you assert that RP is a valid reason for the declares?

If you are trying to put a spin on it to say, well technically because we have all 'taken a side' that means we RP to a certain extent then yes, I can understand that. RP reasons do exist, but I posted a screenshot of the real reason for the attack being "to send TO a message". I do not see the point in discussing the possible reasons why the Kami declared when we know exactly why... what you are saying is a proposed explanation as to why it was ok to declare, but there was no active RP in it.

No one said that to respond an attack with an attack is wrong. The issue is that the response was not simply to attack in order to win the OP, it was to attack to "send a message" because they were unhappy with how their ticket's were handled.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Elvanae (10 years ago)

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#41 Added by Binarabi 10 years ago [en]

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Erm .. . was that a bit Matis of me? Did have a brief fling with a Matis ...

Last edited by Binarabi (10 years ago) | Reason: spelling!

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#42 Added by Binarabi 10 years ago [en]

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Anyway - they are the criminal class!

(Digs even bigger hole to fall down)

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#43 Added by Talkirc 10 years ago [en]

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yes bina it does happen here in the states, but i'm sure it's a rare thing either way.

i want some event's related to the goo, and have a few ideas myself, which i would love to discuss with my friends via the handy teamspeak i'm on. the teamspeak is run as a cookies teamspeak and is english spoken, but you don't have to be proficient in english to join.

a cookies teamspeak means that we're all friends and just want to have fun and come up with ideas (cookies is about friends and fun first) it's generally a adult envoirment, some course speech and topics do arise, but if you have kids around and need things kept clean, we're adults and can do that to accommodate you.

for those of you that have been there, please don't be a stranger, it sure does get boring when it's always quiet.

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Remickla (atys)

Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.

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#44 Added by Fyrosfreddy 10 years ago [en]

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Virg (atys)

FF all I am saying is that I personally want more OP wars in the game. Lots of people do- just see all the ideas posted up every month for the last 2 years and you can see that.

You are focusing on one issue that is important to you and ignoring the wider issue ... a symptom rather than the disease. Respect begets respect, consideration begets consideration. Right after merge I was digging sups in Wasteland .... representatives of both factions were there and both repeatedly dragged aggro on me. Why ?

Consider that a futile OP attack may seem fun against great odds, for the other side being chained to a KB for 2 boring hours in case there's hordes of atatckers hiding in the buished is dreadfully boring. What you descripe is not an OP war, no different from me following you around all day asking you to duel every 30 seconds.

No one said they don't want OP wars, I think they would welcome the fun and the challenge. What's been described however is certainly not fun and no where close to a real challenge. It's boring and creates resentment. Yes, lots of people post ideas for more PvP .... but when I read the posts, it's the same cast of characters asking for different variations on the same theme. If there were 5 OP wars every day, it wouldn't bother me one bit. But when in the interests of more PvP when players are dictated to and told what they can and can not do, who they can and who they can interact with and players are logging off, leaving the region or closing chat channels because of the bickering, it hurts the game..... and this was the heart of your claim, wasn't it. Ya can't waive the "it hurts the game flag" only when it's convenient.

It hurts the game when players are put in a position they don't enjoy or when they feel they are being unfairly disadvantaged. It hurts the game when respect and manners are set aside and RP is used as a guise for self interest

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#45 Added by Fyrosfreddy 10 years ago [en]

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Elvanae (atys)

Fyrosfreddy (atys)

I still don't understand why you talk about RP.

If both sides did not, at the time, approach the declares with RP in mind, how can you assert that RP is a valid reason for the declares?

If you are trying to put a spin on it to say, well technically because we have all 'taken a side' that means we RP to a certain extent then yes, I can understand that. RP reasons do exist, but I posted a screenshot of the real reason for the attack being "to send TO a message". I do not see the point in discussing the possible reasons why the Kami declared when we know exactly why... what you are saying is a proposed explanation as to why it was ok to declare, but there was no active RP in it.

No one said that to respond an attack with an attack is wrong. The issue is that the response was not simply to attack in order to win the OP, it was to attack to "send a message" because they were unhappy with how their ticket's were handled.

I talk about RP for the many reasons stated, none of which you responded to. It's the same circular argument that you are objecting to one side responding to what they consider bad behavior with what you consider bad behavior. AGAIN, my post was not about this specific incident but the mindset which lets 100s of such incidents occur. I selected this thread, merely because it was the one that tipped the scales so to speak and felt that it was time to speak. I have said..... I think 3 times now, that my post is about THIS incident only to the extent that is just one of many symptoms resulting from using RP as an excuse for unpleasant behavior. I am saying that:

1. Walking by a dead character and not assisting because they are of other faction is bad behavior, RP is used as an excuse to make that OK.
2. Dictating who a player can or can not conduct activities with is bad behavior, RP is used as an excuse to make that OK.
3. Repeatedly attacking an OP without coming close to making it interesting is an unpleasant experience for those chained to the KB for 2 hours bored outta their skulls will see this as bad behavior, RP WAS in fact used as an excuse to make that OK.

I'm not saying that their motivations in taking the OP were RP driven. It has been stated here that the reasons for the repeated attacks was RP driven .... an RP excuse for unpleasant behavior. Please understand the distinction .... I am not suggesting RP was the motive for taking the OP, I wasn't at the meeting and didn't "get a memo". I am saying that ya can't excuse bad behavior with an RP excuse when RP provides the only excuse necessary to take an OP.

Did you look at the video I posted ? Now I would have said what the kid who was being harassed should have done is gone to the principal and get the behavior stopped. Now if the kid did that and the behavior continued, his response as shown in the video would have had absolutely nothing to do with what the principal did or did not do; it was because he chose to do what he thought necessary to make the behavior stop. I am certainly not suggesting that the kid's response was appropriate, but it's undeinable that the other kid certainly asked for it.

The defenders requested that the unpleasant behavior be stopped. When it wasn't, either by good manners or action of the GM's, they took what steps they felt necessary to stop it. There's no mystery here. On Ari, message being sent, that OP would be given back in a matter of weeks. But as there's no mechanism to do that under the fundamentalist RP stance that pervades, I don't see that happening.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Fyrosfreddy (10 years ago)

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#46 Added by Mjollren 10 years ago [en]

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If anyone wants an example of a fun battle, take the one in Hightowers Farm from a few days back. Attackers got 16 rounds against a dismal defense. Defenders went against all odds and actually managed to regain the OP. Even if they hadn't, I would still call this attack fun.

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#47 Added by Virg 10 years ago [en]

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Fyrosfreddy (atys)

Consider that a futile OP attack may seem fun against great odds, for the other side being chained to a KB for 2 boring hours in case there's hordes of atatckers hiding in the buished is dreadfully boring. What you descripe is not an OP war, no different from me following you around all day asking you to duel every 30 seconds.

OP wars are optional. If people want to fight then they shouldn't turn up. Also what makes you think that the people turning up can't win the OP war? There is always a chance and there is always hope. If swarms of Kami turn up then there isn't hope but you never know how many will show until you click.

I don't wave "it hurts the game flag" when it is convenient. I wave it when it matters. I was Kami for long enough, and I was part of many discussions on OP wars. Did we go on a rampage taking OPs we didn't need to "send messages" to the other faction basically saying "stop attacking us or we will punish you"? No we didn't.

Yes I am focusing on an issue here- an issue I decided I wanted to gather peoples opinions on. I am sure there are wider, broader issues that encompass this but some things will never change- punishment declares and the pathetic attempt to ticket people for declaring on an OP might. If you want to talk about wider issues I suggest you make another thread.

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FF you talk a lot here but nothing actually answers the initial problem:

People want to punish others for attempting to take an OP.

Your talk on using RP to hide unpleasant behavior is most relevant. Except you have it the wrong way around. You label TO's attacks as unpleasant behavior on what grounds?? They attack an OP for fun and to try and get some mats.. what is wrong with that?? If you seriously think that is wrong then why you think carrying out an OP attack to try and bully people into stopping declares is right I have absolutely no idea.

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Sorry MJ... "the defenders went against all odds and actually managed to regain the OP"?? What odds did Kami have stacked against them?? Low quality OPs should have high thresholds against them. The Kami had much larger forces. I don't see any mountain they had to climb and I certainly don't see any odds stacked against them.

Yes the OP was fun. Yes it was a Karavan declaring. Please don't ticket them for doing so. Also please don't feel the need to declare on any more OPs to "punish" Elvanae for declaring. Not that you can take any more OPs away from her as her last one was taken to punish her for simply asking why the Kami had attacked TO's OP. Perhaps if you guys are going to be dicks about this sort of thing try not to discuss it within the Kami channel.

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