IDEAS FOR RYZOM

I know we can't enforce it Riku, I was just hoping this thread might "send a message".

At the end of the day the Kami are taking mats they don't need and creating zero fun in doing so (unless they are actually still enjoying just sitting at OP wars spam healing and wiping us within a second). If you are attacking to create fun then that's fair. Back in Asylum we attacked a Kara OP without the masses just to have some fun- we didn't win the OP but everyone had a good time.

Who knows maybe some Kami will realise what an ugly faction they are in and swap sides ^^ At the end of the day the people behaving like this are their teammates- I hope thats a worrying enough thought alone.

Virg, I don't think I missed the point at all; I just don't agree that you can say so called punishment attacks are wrong; they're part of PvP. It's not like they're new, from what Rikutatis says, just now it's the Kami who have more strength than the Karavan. If you don't like the way the Kami are acting, feel they're acting like a bully, then stand up and be counted; go help The Outsiders to win!

For those who disagree with TOs actions in multiple declares, has it occurred to you that they've already stirred up more PvP? For those of you that like PvP, surely that's a good thing??

I am now going to sit in a dark corner for a while and contemplate the fact I'm actually encouraging PvP here. Must be having an off day!

Umm.. I do support TO, just haven't had enough time to attend the recent battles. I left Kami for a reason- to try and add balance.

I can quite easily say they are wrong because the people doing them are attempting to discourage PVP and even trying to prevent it happening with tickets! How is that in anyway a good thing?

-Declaring on an OP over and over can be annoying but not wrong.
-Declaring on an OP for revenge can seem distasteful but not wrong.
-Sending tickets for any of the above reasons is wrong.

I don't have any issue on what TO is doing or what kami is doing to retaliate. That's the way its always been. OPs are meant to be warred over. Sending tickets because of the why or how is the only thing about all this I have an issue with.

For the longest time in Aris, Karavan were the dominate faction. They had more numbers and OPs.
There will always be people who whine about imbalance (even back then) but no one outright complained about who attacked who and how many times and if it was for revenge, etc.

I don't remember anyone complaining when the stronger faction bit back.

The stronger faction never bit back to try and quell the other faction into not attacking at all.

The Kami aren't trying to attacking for fun, they aren't attacking for mats they are attacking to try and beat down the Karas into not attacking at all. That is just pathetic.

So to clarify some things, I turned up yesterday just because there was an OP battle going on and I like to always show my face for such things, when I can.


Nothing was mentioned untill it was asked in Universe by Elv. My initial reply of "sending a message" was me just making an idle remark, however it seems I inadvertantly struck a nerve on a topic of contention. :(


As for "we want more OP battles", well thats exactly what is happening. The Kami faction is not without its own instabilitys, and has suffered the loss of a fair few players to other sides in recent months. Coupled with owning so many OPs and being prodded all the time by small attacks, maintaining the possition of power is draining on the "collective". Things like this are expected, and shows that there could be some hope for a shift in power for the Kara/Mara. However don't expect those who are the truest of Kami's to ever yield without fighting tooth and nail.


All of this is just part of the conflict between the factions. There is a "war" of sorts, and for now, the Kami have the upper hand, but it looks like the Outsiders are fraying some nerves.

Ultimatley, if I was Kara (LOL) I'd be taking the viewpoint of "Awesome, we're getting them p***** off!" and then just carry on ;)

Luckily everyone can read the conversation since I took the liberty to screenshot.

If you merely just "showed your face" then I can't see why you felt the need to respond to my question. I didn't direct myself to you and I didn't force you to respond. So clearly, you had a pre-meditated plan in order to attend to send TO a message. This is not an idle remark, how can you possibly say that?

- Edit: Xtar you're obviously free to respond to questions  as you see fit (I miss-read in your post that *I had asked you directly in uni chat* but that's not what you said infact, I was in a bit of a rush with that last post so the  bits above about "I can't see why you felt the need to respond to my question" is an error on my part). I can't accept those who attended did so without knowing fully well that they were there to send a message or else if they did not then I hope they regret doing so. I do not see any good in this form of declare. I probably respect you for at least saying it as it is.

I would probably add that in addition all you have done with your post is contradict yourself. You say you want more OP battles but the reasons for your declare on the Q200 Armilo was because "Xtarsia says: they spam declare and show up with 3 people a lot of the time :p". Despite many people asserting that these declares were a lot of fun and sometimes more than just 3 people attend, I have no idea how you can say you want more OP battles but you are annoyed(?) by TO's declares.

The Q200 Armilo declare was nothing else by a punishment declare. Lets accept that first and foremost.

The only thing I see that the Kami want is to own all outposts.

I don't want to piss anyone off. I don't log on to "piss people off". I don't think I achieved anything by what I did apart from assisting some people to show their true colours in Atys, and this is not a personal statement towards you Xtar but a lot of people like to hide in the shadows, pull the strings and push people apart and for this in particular, I am incredibly sad about. This is not the Atys I want.

I personally, am not annoyed by TOs declares. I also am not really bothered if there are more of less OP wars.

I was merley stating my observations at the time, as I did just now with my previous post.

and yes, the Kami, colectivley, probably wouldn't say no to "owning all OPs". However on that point, clearly OOC, I can see how that would pan out and ruin the game for everyone.

I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

You directed a question at no one in particular, so who did you think would answer? You thought kamis were just a bunch of kids caught with the hand in the cookie jar or what? Of course someone from kami was going to pick on your question and give an honest shot at it, eventually. The TO spam/troll declares were discussed in kami chat before, and there is more than one person miffed at this tactic. Obviously, whoever answered first was going to think back at exactly those discussions. If it wasn't Xtarsia, it was going to be me or someone else; what's the point in latching onto that first person? Go yell at whoever declared, as they have set things in motion.
As I've mentioned in Universe before: I can't see the connection between kara and TO, sorry; their attacks are not announced in the kara war topic, and no other kara shows up. I'm supposed to acept that "maybe kara would show up in Phase 2" ... yeah sure. At least Dharm puts some effort into their attempts.

At any rate, spam declares with no kara support are little more than attempts to rub the fun out of whoever is stupid enough to defend for their faction; I'm sure you're familiar with the concept that not everything we do on Atys is strictly for fun. This is just grinding down defenders' patience. Pretty pathetic on my list too.

Who I thought would answer is completely irrelevant, your jumping on a response I gave to Xtar directly, and no your insinuations are not what I was thinking at the time. The answer to my question is what we are discussing here. Instead it is being used to discuss TO's declares.

You think its ok to declare simply to send a message and punish Mj?

MJ all I see is you picking at the minute details whilst offering nothing to the actually core of what the topic is about? Posts like that, as I know from past experiences add nothing to the conversation and only derail it.

Talking about how TO aren't related to Kara in your opinion, is just pointless (and I completely disagree with what you have written anyway). This post wasn't made because TO are Kara, this post was made because the Kami are doing everything in their power, from sending tickets and attacking to warn other players off, to try and prevent OP wars from occurring.

Its pathetic and instead of trying to pick holes in peoples posts, try and actually answer the actual issue here.

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As for TO's spam attacks they generate a source of fun for many players. Is there something wrong with attacking an OP for fun? Definitely not in my book.

Elvanae -

You do realize the two topics are linked, no?

You present the situation as if "kami" attacked "kara". I challenged that outright in Universe, and it's still unclear what your thoughts are on this. TO are not acting as part of a karavan alliance, based on all the solo attacks. For all I can tell, they are acting for their own fun most of the time. So, if you don't care about fellow karavan guilds when they attack, I fail to recognize your standing to call out people when same guilds are on the defense. Except the vested interest that you get their mats.

Considering the repeated attacks ruin the fun and grind the patience for the defending alliance, I don't see a problem in trying to make it stop. The Code of Conduct is sadly too weak, and only provisions that the attacker must have "sufficient (numbers) to pass the threshold against the NPC defense squadrons alone". Defending against two people ... again ... and again ... and again. Such fun. Many enjoyment. Totally go ahead and start doing this stuff yourself.

edit:

Virg-

Literally, Elvanae started by asking in Universe if "someone (can) actually tell me why the kamis are attacking one of the few q200 OPs we have?".

We. Karas. Sorry, but that line set the tone and topic for the discussion.

edit 2, because you'll of course say I'm offtopic with everything above:
Personally, I want to see troll declares stop, yes.

The Loria war where kami barely won phase 2 was fun. I fail to see who is having fun in these attacks, except the attackers.

All the individually owned OPs within the Kara faction are technically owned by the Karavan alliance- same as with the Kami, or at least when I was Kami. So by attacking that OP you attacked the Karas. I hope that clears that up and we can move on.

A troll declare? They attack with all they can muster and have fun doing so. Is it wrong to hope? Is it wrong to keep attacking OPs, improving your skills, and hope at one point you might win the attack? Two people can kill the guards alone. MJ have you ever known anyone who can kill Kinkoo with 2 people? TO has. Just because you can't manage something yourself doesn't mean it can't be done.

well i only see as it is, you have just fear of losing an outpost or why do you come with 30-45 peops if you think its only troll and you would win the phase 2 easily?^^
you dont have to be surprised if it's boring for you with 1:5 ratio, for me it could be 1:100 ratio, then i would think "ok no chance to get the op but my ampition then is to get one round"
thats the difference between "faction op managers" and "pvp fighters", for you its no fun to have challanges...but for me, this is the inspiring

you can call it troll declares, maybe for you are 2-3 per month often and much, for me 5-6 is rarely
if you dont want pvp ok, then you shouldn´t have an outpost, easiest way to get what you want
nobody is forcing you to fight, so you dont have to come in phase 1 if you know how it ends^^

As you all know, I don't do PvP and I am dismayed at what it does to the game.... namely create threads like this. But the complaining here seems contradictory and ingenuous. With all the focus on RP excusing bad behavior, isn't that what the faction war is all about ? To completely dominate / eliminate the other faction. If it's OK to kill the other faction in PR .... even a neutral non PvP player in PR, in the name of Role Play, then why would it not be completely in the vein of RP and the lore to wipe the other faction from the face of the planet ? Of course peeking around from the RP veil, that doesn't fare well for the game as who is there left to fight ? So yes, it's not good for the game, but neither is killing peeps that have no interest in PvP simply because they '"dared" to enter PR.

So while domination is not good for the game, it is perfectly in line with the RP. How does the RP mantra which serves as the excuse for so much bad behavior, get so easily set aside when it doesn't benefit one side's interests. On Ari, we reached a point where balance was actively promoted. We had "community OPs" which both factions contributed to to distribute OP produce to all guilds. The more powerful faction would attack OPs, win them, and then give them back two weeks later. There were neutral guilds that "promoted balance" with a KLIKHx2 philosophy (Kami Lands in Kami Hands / Kara Lands in Kara Hands). None of that is permissible here "in the name of Role Play". If a Faction A Guild chooses to show up and defend a Faction B Guild say from a Marauder attack, Faction B will walk away..... all in the name of Role Play.

I agree, "greed' seems to be a primary motivator for **some** members of both factions, and certainly no less so for those with the disadvantage as those with the advantage. What is more disappointing, and this is new in the rootball in my experience, is that it is now less about having "the goodies" and more about "keeping the goodies" away from the other guys.

Most peeps who enjoy competition work from a mantra "to be the best, you gotta beat the best". If you are beating the other side because it's not a fair fight because you have access to gear that the other side doesn't, it's really not something to beat ya chest about.

As for the punishment issue, as someone who doesn't get involved in OP battles, looking from the outside repeatedly attacking an OP with no change in the result, I can view it in no other way but harrassment. Yes, I know what the CoC says:

"When declaring war on one or several OP at a time, if you don't attend at least one of these attacks with a number of players reasonably sufficient to pass the threshold against the NPC defense squadrons alone, it is considered harassment."

But really what is the point ? If you made an attack and came up just short of the threshold, by all means come back and try again. But if you failed miserably in the last attack and then declare again against the same OP with the same cast of characters, how much fun is it for the peeps who came to defend facing no challenge / enjoyment whatsoever. Let's be honest .... the only fun to be had there is annoying the other side who are taken away from more interesting and / or challenging endeavors that they would like to have pursued instead.

If attacking the OP in the 1st place is good role play, then how is responding and attacking the attacker not role play ? Whether a behavior is good or bad, should not depend on what side you're on. The Role Play hat is not something that can be taken on and off only when it fits one side of the argument. Personally, I'd like to see that hat burned. While I have no objection to RP, using it as a veil for self interest and disrespectful behavior is something I find disingenuous.