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+1 Elvanae

Just as a disclaimer, I’m pretty new to all this op stuff so forgive me if my observations are way off.. just wanted to throw in my two cents :)

Obviously the guilds with lots of pvp lovers will become known for it and will attract more people who want to learn pvp, and I feel like this is how it gets unbalanced. Kinda like how the rich get richer I guess?

The challenge then for the guilds who don’t have many pvpers is of course that they cannot compete with a guild full of people who love it.

Having said that, trying to win an op fight against people who love and actively train their pvp skills in that case is no different than trying to kill a boss with a low level, poorly coordinated team. It’s obviously not going to work without grinding and training your team’s various skills first, it’s just that your “pvp skill” is not quite as tangible as, say, healing or 2h axe or whatever, and does not show up in the skill tree. But really it’s the same thing, and without practicing pvp that skill will remain low.

However, you can’t really tell people in your guild to stop doing what they like so that they can get better at doing something they hate, in order for the guild to win outposts..

To be honest, I will admit that I don’t know a lot about ops or their resources, but my impression is that they produce mats that are good for pvp. So, if outposts are a pvp mechanism that provides resources that help you get better at pvp, then one -could- argue that saying you want op resources but hate pvp and don’t want to work hard at improving your pvp skills is kind of like saying you want good boss mats but hate boss hunts and don’t want to spend time training to do them effectively. It makes even less sense if the purpose of getting boss mats is to make gear that helps you get better at boss hunts...

So I guess overall, I’m not actually sure why non-pvp guilds really want outposts in the first place (sorry I just have never really been very involved with this stuff before so I could be missing something). Why not just let the silly pvp lovers have them and fight each other to their hearts content?


HOWEVER..


As Elvanae has pointed out, the gloating etc when some of us do try to fight (and lose) is awful, and not a great way to encourage non-pvp lovers to give it a try. Losing sucks to begin with, but when you already know you suck, then lose badly AND the winning team act like aholes about it (sorry), you kinda stop wanting to bother with it.

Maybe the ones doing this are just trying to fuel rage to make us more motivated, and it was a good effort if that's the case, but just know that it's not working like that. It's doing the complete opposite. If you want more people to get into this part of the game it needs to be enjoyable and we need better sportsmanship on both sides.

Great thoughts Tuxi and +1 for the vast majority of them (especially the sportsmanship). As for a little word on why some may be misconstrued as gloating is just simply that sort of banterous attitude is used a fair bit in 2v2 PvP and I think the people don't realize they are upsetting others. Perhaps a little word in a /tell to them may make them aware of their actions. More recently bad attitude has been provoked by rule breaking but this is no excuse.

As for OP mats being useful in non-PvP situations, they do have some uses. However this is mainly in digging supreme (egiros pick) or digging in general (boosted focus gear). As for outside of digging and PvP activities OP mats are not really required. You can do almost every PvE activity without good (or no) gear in this game. Only two examples I can think that actually is significantly helped by a vedice weapon is when solo-ing KPs. Also tekorn weapons do also come in useful when tanking a boss without armour (critical hits causing stuns prevent him from hitting you).

Ah ok, thanks for clarification :)

If a guild is in a position where they want to make use of these things, then they probably have some high-level players that have potential to be great pvpers. It is unfortunate that the only way to get this stuff is via pvp, so if you are a completely non-aggressive person you have no chance of obtaining them.. but that is a different debate. So I guess the issue for the most part just boils down to motivation to learn pvp (I think we all know that already).

So why aren't people motivated?

Personally I've always avoided pvp because I have always found it utterly terrifying. I'm not aggressive, I don't like trash talk and I get intimidated easily. Ask Elv about me right before the first (and only) pvp training session I went to haha.. it was pathetic. I almost ran away at the last second. However the atmosphere was relaxed and friendly, so I forced myself to stay and did have a lot of fun with it and learned a lot once we got going. That made me want to do more of it.

I suspect many other people find pvp intimidating as well, or don't feel the competitive urge or aggression or whatever.. but this relates back to good sportsmanship and just making it a little more fun and approachable for everyone.

Not saying we should ban trash talk in outpost wars, that would be silly... but I think we do agree that a general attitude change (on both sides) might help :)

I find it funny that y'all like to flame me for my alts. I subscribe 4 accounts which is the amount allowed from One IP address. Binarabi this a sad attempt at you trying to toss egg on my face for calling you and your guilds actions out in front of everyone, Yes I don't agree with the decisions you guys made and I said all I could to stop you from backdooring the Souls OP.

No more talk on yaka or his alts from now please. Unless in a friendly manner and relevant to the subject.

I'm sorry Yaka, I used your set up as an example I didn't want this to turn into a debate about your alts.

I used you as an example of the bar that the kami are setting.

There's certain things that, relunctantly, I have worked on. I got my launcher to 220, Im working on the ammo crafting, I've got my 1h + dagger + 2 2H and another on the way, I've got my mixed set + jewls but despite this, I do not feel it is worth trying to attack you let alone thinking to myself, ok if I advance my skills I can do something. 

Ok, I can get other Karas to work with me in launcher but I'm not going to force people to do that when they have so many other skills they are working on.

So this is not to flame you, it is the reality I am faced with. 

Virg's post is provokative and I felt the need to respond to it. In fact, not only is it provokative but I sense some complaints from him too. You cannot put people into the position the Karas are in (with Virg kindly telling us how we could "beat" you...) and not expect retaliations which will be mingled in with defeat at losing OPs and all other sorts of emotions and not expect some to verbally convey these to you. So for me, your complaining about complainers trying to get them to do something in order that they can provide you with the level of competition you are after.

And all I'm saying to you is... a lot of people will be running out of steam with regrds to what they are up against because launchers are not the be all and end all.

I really don't want to contribute to the alt discussion.. but maybe we could solve it once and for all by having an experimental battle where Yaka is only allowed to bring 1 alt. (We could also agree that nobody is allowed to bring more than one alt, but I specify Yaka just cause he's the one people have been complaining about).

If we still get creamed then at least people would have to stop blaming Yaka's army.. if not then maybe it really has been a factor worth considering. It's just a thought..

I do not think anyone is really saying Yaka's army wins battles - just makes it hard/impossible to kill him!

But I do think, after a chat with a Kara Tryker homin after the battle, that pvp jools are a must, Pei LA helps (can be killed every hour), Helmets help on mages, having 3 amps in bag with diff enchants helps (wish there was a fast way of re-loading the things tho - and make sure you have good sap load on the craft of amps) and making sure the tank in your team and the 2 nukers keep on their feet helps, assisting the tank's target by affies helps and the use of f2p for healing the healers helps - then shooting the guards to drag them out of the op helps ...

Also not inviting all Kami to come to a battle helps level the playing field as well - as Asylum spokes-homin said

Why don't you all try (speaking to both factions and no one in particular) to do a real WAR without using alt...

I really would like to see what would happend because there is people with courage (people n.3) and people who need alt or they feel weak (people n.1)...

Or maybe this people just want to keep the game like it is now till the death of it...and they are gonna play only with their own alts because many people are gonna leave... (sounds funny playing alone, but those kind of people from my point of view has misunderstood Ryzom)

This topic is degrading into a discussion about alts. There are many alt users on both sides. Lets steer this away from a discussion about alts. Make a separate topic if you want to talk about that.

My answer is in the right topic...You spoke about the kind of people we are..well you forgot the kind of people who use alt...they are not in your list :P

Regardless of if it does or doesn't, a conversation about alts will turn sour. I would rather this topic was not blocked.

But it is all part of the same topic ...

Guildie came up with good idea:
When 1st round is won attacking side take off one piece of armour
Another piece on winning the 2nd round
If they loose 3rd - they can put back on a piece of armour
And so on - thus giving the defenders a better chance of defending

Matis might get banned ofc - being as they are far too  bright with no armour on!

Here's the facts : it took a server merger to undo the previous power balance with Karavan on top. They were dominating completely, just like kami are doing now. I'm quite sure there were plenty of Virgs to tell kamis "yeah, you're underpowered and undernumbered, but you can TOTALLY do it".

Maybe this comic explains it better than me? http://www.marriedtothesea.com/index.php?date=012710

Anyway, you're just an aggravating ***** at this point, as other people have pointed out more politely in this thread. Your guild soloes NPC bosses, the kami faction could have all OPs on Atys if it wanted to, but you keep insisting the other side can TOTALLY recover. Just shut up already.

Developer oversight (or carelessness) does not make things right. We should have mounting costs to keep declaring, mounting difficulty and so forth. Otherwise you end up with the current situation.

I heard that on Arispotle the winning side actually gave back outposts, just so there could be further fun? Maybe you kamis should do that instead of being the smug ****** that you are.

Just for the record, Victoriancamper is in no way related to me, although I'm quite flattered that someone follows my victorian + camping beliefs.

As to the current topic: I do not beliefe all the people who left did so just because there is a lack of OutPost battles, although I aknowledge it *could* be a part of it.

In fact, I think people have left in the past for a rather excess of battles (+ the continuous lack of new content, inaccesibility to the dev team, ideas being ignored, characters being wiped etc.).

You keep saying people could actually do something at OPs  if they put in the effort but seriously, i have a hard time believing 15 launchers vs 50 (I have no clue on numbers, just said a random amount) would stand any chance, and after constant attempts people get tired.

You also don't want to speak about alts but it's not just about monstrous undying homins with (12k heals every 2.8 seconds) let alone 12k damage on a single homin, or a synced bomb on a pod, i think (and i'm just assuming) that that is not all that Elvanae meant, I think that on top of the proper alts, she was also speaking of the very common practice amongst the kamis of sharing accounts, if you mix that + the dexterity of some to control numerous toons at the same time.. well you have some advantage.

In any case, must remember everyone also has a RL to take care of and that theres only so much a homin can do to try to match your force.

Just my 2 cents, I don't even play anymore so could be completely mistaken, others will say.