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It seems these days everyone is attributing the declining player-base to the lack of OP wars. Whether this is true or not still remains a question however in this post I will be addressing those players who believe it is the reason.

It seems many people look at outposts as "rightfully theirs". Something which they should own by right because the outpost resides in their lands. Others have the view guilds who own many outposts should be considered greedy. Both of these beliefs are in my opinion severely wrong. The misconception that Kami outposts should rightfully, without earning it, belong in Kami hands (and vice versa) has stemmed back from truces struck between Kami and Kara factions.

Outposts are by simple definition, a PvP mechanism. If guilds weren't meant to own more than a certain number of outposts, then there would be a cap on the maximum amount of OPs. If Karavan guilds weren't meant to own outposts in Kami lands then they wouldn't be able to own them and build their nasty, damaging drills there.

Outposts have been taken over and heavily influenced by politics, which is to be expected, after all they do produce rare mats. However they are a PvP orientated mechanic and people would do well to remember this.

What I personally find ridiculous is the fact people harp on about the lack of battles, then when a guild declares all of a sudden it is a horrid thing!

There are seven types of people:

[1]People who loose something, then whine and throw the toys out of the pram until they get it back.
[2]People who just don't care.
[3]People who loose something, then fight to win it back.
[4]People who can't spell "lose" correctly. What asshats.
[5]People who can't count! What asshats ;)

If you are 1 or 2 then outposts aren't for you. If you are option 3 then fight to win the outposts back. Many people are working hard towards it and quite recently there was an excellent first phase battle between some Kami and Kara. I loved this fight and it was well fought and led on both sides. I look forward to seeing many more battles in the future just like that.

PS: Your faction's success in this game is not necessarily measured by how many outposts they own. If you personally think it is- don't expect such a thing to be handed to you on a silver plate.

EDIT: Just for you rollo :)
EDIT 2: Just for you xtar :)

Virg,

You forgot the fourth type of person. Those that use the word "loose" when they should use "lose."

Your pal,

Rollocks

Edited thanks xD

Virg -- I do care because I would like to see some of those OP mats out on the open market where non-violent homins could have a chance to score some. However, I do not enjoy PvP in this game and in my current incarnation I do not do it as a matter of policy.

Having said that, I would note that OPs are supposed to be GvG not FvF. I think that it would be a good thing if some aggressive kami guild attacked an OP held by another aggressive Kami guild, but that would provoke cries of outrage from Kami alliance folks following by a falling apart of the Kami alliance, and... Yes, it would be a good idea (for those who like PvP and some balance in the PvP).

Stirring the pot,

Bittty

Everyone is going to see it from their point of view.

To you, your looking at the weaker opposition telling us to "fight back".

There are a lot of people who like me are "number 3's"...

But what I have to "fight back" against is something I personally will not be able to compete with. It feels like we are measuring our prowess in different ways now compared to traditional PvP.  When I say this, I am basing it on my experiences at the last two OP battles. I can deal with players and their alt healing them... despite myself not being able to operate a healing alt in the same manner. But the bar you have set goes above and beyond me mastering launcher or other skills. It is something I do not foresee myself being able to do especially when I consider I sometimes have troubles with a cping alt...

Anyways, no one wants anything handed to them on a silver plate. But neither do we want it rubbed in our faces like some of your guild members love to do, whether playfully or not you underestimate its impact.

Lastly, when you stipulate that, " It seems these days everyone is attributing the declining player-base to the lack of OP wars," then you clearly have not explored the more important underlying issues such as the one I outline above.

+1 for elvanae.

i would elaborate but it's far too late and my brain doesn't work at the best of times.

i do feel that the imbalance has got to a point where it's impossible for the karavan to bounce back.

the gloating from certain players is just silly.. sore losers are one thing but sore winners? 
all might be fair in love and war but it's just not cricket (to coin a phrase) to rub the loss in the losers' faces. kinda childish.

for the record, i'm a number 2.

Let me preface by stating that I don't usually read or reply to forum posts. Just don't have the time I guess.

I agree with you Virg that outposts are a pvp mechanisms. If anything, I would like to see more outposts built so that more guilds can own them and enjoy having a place to call their home, if only for a while. I also agree that outposts are a political mechanism.

You mentioned 3 types of people. But the word "people" isn't really the correct noun unless a guild is made up of the same person, some are... From my point of view, there are many types of people and many types of guilds where these various types of people enjoy their time. From my perspective, there is only a select few guilds that devote the majority of their time and resources to pvp. That's what they want to do and it's their right to do so. Most guilds that I am aware of are made up of people that like to dig/craft, PVE, help new players, and generally enjoy their time here as short as it may be for some of us. These guilds also have people that enjoy pvp and work toward becoming better at it.

With that being said, it is difficult to expect most guilds to be on par with the guilds that specialize in pvp. There is nothing wrong with that, It's how the game works. Since only a few guilds specialize in pvp, the end result of this type of thinking is an atys controlled by only a few guilds. If that's the way things work out, so be it.

As a last note, there is a difference between pvp and bullying others. pvp would likely be more enjoyable without verbal abuse from the obviously stronger side. Outposts are a mechanism for pvp but they should not be a mechanism for hurting others. If anything, this type of pvp only discourages others from affiliating themselves with the type of people that do such things. Affiliation as I use it here includes pvping with them. If you want more people to fight with, let outposts and pvp be more enjoyable even when on the losing side.

~Art

Virg.. why! There is nothing to gain by posting this :P

Also you can't count either :P

Oh belive me, me and Virg have debated this harshly with one another...

I will say this though, most members of your guild have worked very hard! Should you reap the rewards? YES! Things dont come from nothing.

What I want people to realise is that firstly I disagree with Virg's opening statement. Its more than a lack of OP battles making people stop playing.

Secondly, I appreciate that you guys also want to enjoy the game... we all do, most of us subscribe and pay money to enjoy ourselves with one another. Yes, I do enjoy PvP, but the PvP I enjoy and which Virg introduced me to is nothing like the PvP at OP battles. I enjoyed targetting you and your heal alt X :P and attempting to kill you both... and as much as I love Yaka, I respect him for the experience he has but straight talk, his pod of alts was SOLID. I cannot replicate that and I wouldn't dream of attempting to. I feel like the OP batles have becomes something completely different from what I have ever experienced and its things like that which will make people feel that they will never be able to advance. I do not want to see a Ryzom of robots but rather real people and I hope that you all share this wish with me, whether you are Kara, Kami, Marauder, Neutral or whatever you lable yourself. :)

I will add... I do agree with you X, I'm not sure who Virg is preaching to here...
Numbers 1+2 will be irrelevant... they wont do anything.
So you want us Number 3's not to give up is that it??
<3

+4

@Bittty

OP mats are the product of violence and are crafted into cult items, which pacifist players a) have absolutely no use for and b) should absolutely not want such blood-stained items....

-Placio the Frippo

Placio, that's an interesting take on it. I do not think that the products of an OP are the product of violence any more than oil is a product of violence in the real world. Rather the OP materials are the *cause* of violence (at least on occasion). The current state of approximate OP stagnation, in fact, makes them nearly peaceful in production compared to supernode sups.

I must respectfully and vehemently disagree with your statement that pacific (not necessarily pacifist) players have no use for OP-map crafted items.

It is true that the materials are crafted into items that have the imprimatur of one of the two cults, depending on the drill that produced them, but I fail to see why I should not want them. I'm a Tryker by sap (though neutral by affiliation) -- that doesn't mean I don't want a nice Zorai sword or a nice Fyros helm to go with my Tryker armor. I'm neutral as to Cult -- that means both sides like me and I don't hate either one. Why shouldn't I want a nice vedice axe for boss hunts? I sure as heck want a set of focus 165 jewels made with an armilo tool (and so does every other serious digger on Atys), a nice set of amps boosted with a rubbarn tool, and an egiros pick for those pesky sup nodes. A set of 165 hp jewels for bosses would be nice, as would boosted LA.

Do I need them? No, and neither do good PvP players. They are just tools that make our lives just a fraction easier no matter what path we are traveling. OP mats have uses for all players.

However, this is off the initial subject of the thread a little. So I shut up now.

-- Bittty

And no one has yet commented on my idea that Guilds should not let the Cult affiliation of the OP owner determine whether or not they attack.

i do think oil is a product of violence, just like blood diamonds are called such because of the death and violence associated with them.

Your idea about limiting op wars to GvG is flawed because many people can just join the guild to attend the op, and i know someone will say the devs can add a colldown tiem to changing guilds.. but thats just silly. Maybe an alternative would be to limit the number of participants in the war based on the OP level. so you can only use your guild and a few close friends, not entire armies...

Plac, I don't think anybody wants to put any restrictions on OP battles. I for sure do not

it was suggested as an alternative to Bittty's reminder that ops are "supposed" to be GvG, not that i would support such a change