IDEAS FOR RYZOM


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#20 [en] 

Bitttymacod (atys)

Mjollren -- I am not interested in acting to "create the right climate for the powerplayers" (whatever that might mean).  I just want to keep the possibility open that a social person like my GL might score a piece of armilo or two from time to time. Drastically reducing the number of OP mats means that will never happen.

--B

Bah, so in the end you dont mind about the way is implemented right now because "it works for you (tm)". that is very, very selfish.............. but then again... I wont judge you... fight for your interest.. and I appreciate that you made it clear that is just a personal reason why you dont agree with Mjollren's idea.

Last edited by Exodus (1 decade ago)

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#21 [en] 

Daomei (atys)
Thank you very much for your friendly response, Lacuna.

I agree that it is less easy for a guildless neutral to get scarce materials, and it is a handicap I freely and happily accept. Further on, yes, I can get some of that from friends, even from friends in all factions. Only, that is not the point when speaking about trade which means that even an "enemy", unless hindered by strong feelings or self-imposed restrictions, will make the deal if considered favorable.

Granted one can get a lot for sup mats. Yet for me so far, sup mats are mostly more valuable than op mat which I do not need at all but is just a nice to have, as I have all crafting masters except a handful which will be done soon, and always favor a variety of mats over the advantages of op mat.

Yet the point was whether there is abundance of op mat. In the past, there was, but the merge brought grim restrictions. Before, every armilo and rubbarn OP was worth while equally, nowadays, only armilo 250 (limitedly also 200) and rubbarn 250 and 200 are of major worth and interest.

Tekorn 250 was always rare, everybody chose to pile it up for rubbarn series, understandably, below, it was not too rare, the lower levels abundant. And though I see some use for lower level tekorn, especially for PvP, that demand should be largely satisfied already, even with q50 or so tekorn/rubbarn launchers and pistols (I did all my dagger training from 150 to master with 2 sets of tekorn daggers q200 before the fusion, thus such a weapon only used in PvP is hardly wearing off too soon).

Question is, thus, if offer of grind mat q250 and max occupation produce (though, admittedly, the missing of the advanced occupations is devaluating that one largely) are such a worthless offer that they are ignored, or that op mats are worth more than one or more hours of playtime (which would be equivalent to, e.g., 1000 choice mat q250 or a stack of, say, 108 occ produce q70), or a moderate multiple thereof.

If OP mat is worth more than hours of playtime at max level, then it is already scarce. If it were not, my offer might have been of interest for somebody. Hope not to have bored.

If I understand correctly you;re saying if we reduce the production of OP mats, we kill the OP wars all together because nobody will invest in owning them?

I dont think so... out of 300 kamis out there (I dont really know how many of them are) just 50 kamis benefit out of OP mats... because they are more experienced, they do PvP, HO, Officer and GL.. but if you cut the production... specially for OP mats like rubbarn... that will force them to do something about it...

Sure... they could keep the same alliance.. but some guilds get less... so for awhile nobody will say anything... but what if.. at some point.. this will change? Kamis are greedy... I believe their alliance will collapse...

Last edited by Gkr (1 decade ago)

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#22 [en] 

Gorran (atys)
Binarabi (atys)
Virg (atys)
I believe there is an alternative route. Recently we saw marauders attack a karavan outpost. Kami were present on both sides of the fighting (although kami were kicked from the marauder side).
Not all kami were kicked - only the 1 ... so 2 kami guilds were accepted by Mauro - made a team of us, not a full team tho - think 2 kami fought side-by-side with karavan *is sick in a bag*

Guilds whose primary allegiance is to a nation will always fight against the Marauders meaning some Kami and Karavan guilds would stand side by side against the chaos of the Marauders.

Guilds whose primary allegiance is to a power will always attack the opposing power meaning Kami/Karavan would side with Marauders against the opposing power.

Both groups are equally justified using the justification of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Almost correct, expect that Marauder wont accept the other factions, only for the lolz - and in order to deflect this idea that marauders accepted kamis, we will kick all non-marauders from now on... because silly me, didnt realize how "hot" this issue is.. and people can immediately interpret it the wrong way, which is fine, I dont care.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Gkr (1 decade ago)

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#23 [en] 

@Binarabi HAHAHA Its a shame that you take pride in helping the marauders, you dishonour the kami... Hopefully next time you won't be as naïve and won't fall for mara appeal ;)
Gkr (atys)
Binarabi (atys)

Not all kami were kicked - only the 1 ... so 2 kami guilds were accepted by Mauro - made a team of us, not a full team tho

Interesting perspective.. I dont wanna hurt your feelings cause you're a nice gal, but in reality we pretty much ignored you (you = kamis as a whole)..... :-/

But this really made it clear that next time I will kick each and everyone of you... because from fun and "killing karavan/matis" you made it political statement that we asked for help and we accepted you, which we didnt.

Hugs and kisses

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From where i'm standing there isn't a real scarcity of mats at the time, simply the kami have many mouths (guilds) to feed to everyone gets a little instead of a bunch, i think that keeps the faction together (save for the kami shame) but put together the mats count for a larger number..

As for Virg's statement on faction co-op, i think it'd be nicer to have more strict RP, that could lead to amazing battles and eventually the *real* strongest faction would have power. Again, just my opinion..
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HAHA shame on you Bina.

#24 [en] 

[quote=Gkr (atys)you made it political statement that we asked for help and we accepted you, which we didn't.
[/quote]

Nope - you never asked for help - but killing Karavan at any opportunity seems logical - like Gorran says "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" or at least when s/he is killing my enemy

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Binarabi
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. (Bill Hicks)

#25 [en] 

Binarabi (atys)
Gkr (atys)
you made it political statement that we asked for help and we accepted you, which we didn't.

Nope - you never asked for help - but killing Karavan at any opportunity seems logical - like Gorran says "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" or at least when s/he is killing my enemy

Ah ok then... hope you had fun.. we did...

Last edited by Gkr (1 decade ago)

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#26 [de] 

Hi Gkr,
Gkr (atys)
If I understand correctly you;re saying if we reduce the production of OP mats, we kill the OP wars all together because nobody will invest in owning them?

No, I did not, and I fail to see that this would follow. In my opinion, reduction of OP mat production would most probably not increase or decrease the frequency of OP wars as it did not in the past. The fusion has radically reduced OP mat availability without leading to lots of OP wars.

The starting point of my comment was Mjollren's proposal to reduce OP mat production. He seemed to conclude that lack of interest in OP wars stems from abundance of OP mat. So his, not my idea was to reduce OP mat production to incite more OP wars.

I did not comment on OP wars, rather on the alleged abundance of OP mats, similar as Bittty did. If there were too many OP mats, some would spill over into the markets. They do not. Instead, few are given to friends, here and then, sometimes irrespective of faction allegiance, mostly inside factions.

My point was that, if OP mats were abundant, trading (RL) hours of ingame activity like digging grind mat or occupation certs/produce would be a valid currency for trade. Playtime is possibly the most valuable resource for many players: e.g. all who do not love digging or cert grabbing grind and have limited time to play the game, maybe PvP or similar.

Therefore, I conclude that there is no abundance of OP mat. There is rather shortage, not only by higher numbers of players, but also by the devaluation of rubbarn and armilo OPs after merge.

Hope it is clearer now. Greetings.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#27 [de] 

Gkr (atys)
Lets make this clear once and for all... people dont use forum to trade OP mats, they use IG /tell - this is not a big world where we need to use forums.. we all know each other... and things dont change so often in this game to need a forum to reach people that have OP mats...
Let me make this even more easier: Dont use forum trade for any kind of statistics.

Well, this simply means: There is no abundance of OP mat. I lived in a world where there was, extreme abundance for some classes, though not for all. The world, by population, was even smaller than ours today, people knew one another even better, spoke the same language, and the vast majority logged in the same timezone.

So, normally, there should not have been trade of OP mats over forums, especially as it was really easy, then, to get OP mats by asking, and there was an additional channel (a special event guild) distributing OP mat to guildless players and guilds without OP and faction/alliance.

Indeed, there was trade over forums, to some extent. Moreover, it was easy to obtain the more abundant classes of OP mat that way, while widely unlikely to get those in short offer.

The question is: Why placing a WTB in forums? I read people asking for OP mat in universe channel. Beneath that they were much mocked and derided by some, they only reached readers of unverse at that time. A forum post may be found for a longer period, in any timezone, and is easily translated in different languages. Even Goo translate suffices most times if needed at all.

And a trade offer is communication among peers, without personal, roleplay, or allegiance matters interfering too much. Trade is a link even between enemies, for mutual advantage. And it is not that the trade forums do not work at all, though they are not working well, lamentably. The reasons for are manifold, and exceed the scope of this discussion.

Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#28 [en] 

Daomei (atys)
Hi Gkr,
Gkr (atys)
If I understand correctly you;re saying if we reduce the production of OP mats, we kill the OP wars all together because nobody will invest in owning them?

No, I did not, and I fail to see that this would follow. In my opinion, reduction of OP mat production would most probably not increase or decrease the frequency of OP wars as it did not in the past. The fusion has radically reduced OP mat availability without leading to lots of OP wars.

The starting point of my comment was Mjollren's proposal to reduce OP mat production. He seemed to conclude that lack of interest in OP wars stems from abundance of OP mat. So his, not my idea was to reduce OP mat production to incite more OP wars.

I did not comment on OP wars, rather on the alleged abundance of OP mats, similar as Bittty did. If there were too many OP mats, some would spill over into the markets. They do not. Instead, few are given to friends, here and then, sometimes irrespective of faction allegiance, mostly inside factions.

My point was that, if OP mats were abundant, trading (RL) hours of ingame activity like digging grind mat or occupation certs/produce would be a valid currency for trade. Playtime is possibly the most valuable resource for many players: e.g. all who do not love digging or cert grabbing grind and have limited time to play the game, maybe PvP or similar.

Therefore, I conclude that there is no abundance of OP mat. There is rather shortage, not only by higher numbers of players, but also by the devaluation of rubbarn and armilo OPs after merge.

Hope it is clearer now. Greetings.

Yes, it did.

Well.. what Mjollern is trying to do here.. is find a way.. to make kamis stop creating this huge alliance between each other.. making the OP wars... dull...

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#29 [en] 

Daomei (atys)
Gkr (atys)
Lets make this clear once and for all... people dont use forum to trade OP mats, they use IG /tell - this is not a big world where we need to use forums.. we all know each other... and things dont change so often in this game to need a forum to reach people that have OP mats...
Let me make this even more easier: Dont use forum trade for any kind of statistics.

Well, this simply means: There is no abundance of OP mat. I lived in a world where there was, extreme abundance for some classes, though not for all. The world, by population, was even smaller than ours today, people knew one another even better, spoke the same language, and the vast majority logged in the same timezone.

So, normally, there should not have been trade of OP mats over forums, especially as it was really easy, then, to get OP mats by asking, and there was an additional channel (a special event guild) distributing OP mat to guildless players and guilds without OP and faction/alliance.

Indeed, there was trade over forums, to some extent. Moreover, it was easy to obtain the more abundant classes of OP mat that way, while widely unlikely to get those in short offer.

The question is: Why placing a WTB in forums? I read people asking for OP mat in universe channel. Beneath that they were much mocked and derided by some, they only reached readers of unverse at that time. A forum post may be found for a longer period, in any timezone, and is easily translated in different languages. Even Goo translate suffices most times if needed at all.

And a trade offer is communication among peers, without personal, roleplay, or allegiance matters interfering too much. Trade is a link even between enemies, for mutual advantage. And it is not that the trade forums do not work at all, though they are not working well, lamentably. The reasons for are manifold, and exceed the scope of this discussion.

I have no problems using the forum... for tradings.. I have friends that used it... all I'm saying.. I already know people that know people that have stuff I need... but if you dont... I guess you could either use uni channel/ask a friend or use forum...

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#30 [en] 

Gkr (atys)

Hey there... I totally respect you as a player and all that... but... all this coming from you, as a neutral player not engaging in any PvP... welll it's kinda dry...

You have almost no real experience when it comes to OP and PvP (that's my understanding, sorry if I'm assuming wrongly) and I'm only attacking your statements because I have seen this pattern before, ie:

people with no PvP/OP war interest telling what is good and what is bad... but you dont know how it feels when you are 30 vs 80 - once you do PvP, once you get involved I'm sure your perspective will change because you will realize some things the way they are right now, make a lot of other futile.

So if I were you I would keep my statements a bit more general than saying "this is horrible idea" - Why? we are trying to find a way here to make the OP wars more interesting as in, divide the armies - and by that I mean, each fraction have equal opportunity.

So please join the conversation but be realistic about what you can put on the table and what not...

Gkr --

From (IRL) 2009 to 2012 I (Bittty) was first a member and then GL of a small Tryker/Karavan guild on Arispotle and participated in numerous OP battles.  Almost every time I was on the losing side.  I fought to defend Tryker and Karavan holdings and I fought against the Marauders when they were first being introduced.  I have participated in PvP. I didn't like it much then but the few times the teams I was on prevailed there was a momentary rush. However, my position on who to defend and attack was clear. I supported my nation, my religion, my friends.

About halfway through that period the guild split. The leaders changed from Karavan to Kami and I was left holding the original guild as GL and managing the Psykopla Knoll OP. I spent a deal of time offering the goods from it to anyone who needed them (The cats were pretty worthless, but newbies could use them, and the q50 armilo was actually worth something back then.).

There really was a glut of OP mats and cats in Arispotle at that time, but I was the only person in my time slot who offered them up to homins who could use them.  (I was informed that there was one other guild (in a different time slot) who regularly offered cats, but that was it.) 

That aside, I did trade for other cats from time to time and I did have friends who paid me for my services in OP battles with q250 cats and the occasional bit of greslin or other OP mats (the big weapons OP mats, of course, I never saw even at that time).

There was a Kami alliance on Arispotle, too. What finally broke it on Arispotle was not economics, but personality. If the leaders of the current Kami alliance work well together and use both real rewards and roleplay equitably, nothing will break it.

To bring this up to the present day, I regard myself as a midlevel RP person. When the Second Great Swarming occurred, I decided that Bittty would be disenchanted by what he saw during the Exodus and during the years of waiting and would work to avoid PvP and to become friends with all Nations and cults. (The actual introduction of the Ranger pseudo-faction was just gravy.)
Gkr
Bitttymacod (atys)
Mjollren -- I am not interested in acting to "create the right climate for the powerplayers" (whatever that might mean).  I just want to keep the possibility open that a social person like my GL might score a piece of armilo or two from time to time. Drastically reducing the number of OP mats means that will never happen.

--B

Bah, so in the end you dont mind about the way is implemented right now because "it works for you (tm)". that is very, very selfish.............. but then again... I wont judge you... fight for your interest.. and I appreciate that you made it clear that is just a personal reason why you dont agree with Mjollren's idea.

But, Gkr, the current implementation doesn't "work for me", and I am most certainly not being "very, very selfish." I get nothing except what my social GL can obtain and share (which is very little). My statement above says exactly what it says. I don't understand what Mjollren meant by "powerplayers", but if he just meant "active PvP players", then I don't want to make PvP any more important in the game than it is now, and I certainly don't want to create an elite class of "powerplayers" who work to crush their foes in that theatre of operations.

My position is not just one of personal interest. There are a lot of players out there who are not "well connected" and who have even less chance than I do. Of course I work for my own self interest, but I also think I am looking out for others. The whole thesis of this proposed change is that people will do that very thing. I think that thesis is flawed, and have tried to point out why it is flawed because it is based on the assumption that there is a surplus of OP mats when that doesn't exist.

What I am saying is that there is not a glut of OP mats and that if the OP battles need sprucing up, reducing the number of mats even further is NOT going to help the game as a whole. What might be interesting is to enforce the guild vs. guild aspect with a guild change block to either side of the battle. That might, and I do say might, encourage mobility and faction breaking. (I have seen this in another game and it seems to work, but in that game the membership rolls of all guilds are open knowledge so you have a chance to see the enemy building himself up.)

I have accepted the thesis that the status quo is unsatisfactory in terms of both availability of OP mats and in terms of the chance for PvP players who are not of the "currently winning faction" to have a chance at a fun, evenly matched, battle. What I am criticising is the proposed method to solve the problem.

--Bittty
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P.S. Thank you, Gkr, for generally maintaining a respectful tone. I hope that you understand my tone to be the same; strong disagreement, but no personal malice.

Last edited by Bitttymacod (1 decade ago)

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#31 [en] 

Powerplayer is a specific term in the mmorpg genre, best explained by its opposition to the roleplayer definition.

A roleplayer will define a role for his character and create a persona that best fits the story of that character; their decisions are made in order to fulfill an image rather than to be efficient. A powerplayer will seek to make the choices that are best in order to "win" a game via its mechanics, disregarding lore if needed; a mercenary of sorts. A powerplayer seeks power first, and will ally with whoever else can help in that regard.

--

Regarding the "plenitude" debate: I am not comparing the current situation to the past, because I haven't seen the past. But I do know the present, and whether or not you regard it as scarcity, it's apparently still good enough to keep together some 10+ guilds across 3 languages.

Hence the proposal to make sharing impossible unless you disregard your own guild and give others stuff first. Either way it's going to create frustration with players, encouraging them to be more individualistic and more pragmatic in their approach.

Last edited by Mjollren (1 decade ago)

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#32 [en] 

Mj, I see your point. Yet please take in account that you are looking at one of at least 4, if not 5 "factions":

- 1. The Kami alliance holding the majority of OPs
- 2. The Karavan alliance holding much fewer OPs - you know about them from hearsay
- 3. The marauders holding practically no OPs - same as above
- 4. Neutrals holding no OPs either though sometimes allying to the one or the other side
- 5. Neutrals not participating in PvP

So how do you define abundance of OP mat? which of the above groups enjoys?

Scarcity of mats will, imho, result in

1. getting less
2. getting few
3., 4., 5. getting nothing

Given the existing balance of powers, where should that make a difference?

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#33 [en] 

"1. getting less" is an overstatement, would be "every member of 1. gets little to nothing". At which point simply changing faction and defeating your old allies is the more efficient way to get OP mats (less people to share with).

Yes, on the short run the less populous faction is disadvantaged. On the long run however, it starts growing in members; right now, on the long run it's bleeding players (they either quit or go kami).

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#34 [de] 

In other words, the result would be that only those of the strongest alliance would get everything, the rest nothing.

My bet ist that the result would be that those in the strongest alliance would stick closer to it, getting at least a chance to grab one of the scarce mats or at least some benefit from like a rubbarn weapon or a boosted armor if not the mat proper. The rest would not get anything, and no chance to get it via trade or even friendship.

Typical lose-lose situation immobilizing OP situation even more.

Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral
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