Scarcity as an answer to the outpost lock-out - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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#1 Added by Mjollren 1 decade ago [en]

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We've had proposals regarding fight mechanics, in order to forcefully even an outpost fight. They were met with some enthusiasm and some criticism, I'm not going to rehash that debate.

A good point that was made during those debates was that "numbers count very much"; skill will obviously help reduce a party's handicap, but not to large extents. I'll draw a line in the sand and say 2:1 is already too much if the skill disparity is not huge (like 20 f2ps against 10 masters).

Let's consider the current situation: there are excessively many OP mats going around. The average guild has 5-10 active members in a week (again, it's a line in the sand, some have more, some less), and an item lasts certainly more than a week. What if OP mats were enough for just the owning guild, then? Let's say .. 7 q250 rubbarn per month, or 10 q200, 13 q150 and so on.

This suddenly slashes the motives behind the bigger alliance (whichever it is at the moment), because the more you grow the more difficult it is to share fairly or effectively. Doesn't matter if you have 4 guilds x 20 players or 8 guilds x 10 players, you can only make 7 masters happy; everyone else would be doing it as a business (helping to get help in return) or out of altruism. Anyone pondering to join the bigger side will have to think how they're new and how they're going to be at the bottom of the priority list. By contrast, anyone joining the weakest side will have a good position to negotiate from: "if I join you, you put me on a priority list for awesome gear".

In short, what I'm proposing is to apply economic pressure, the only thing that's proven to work. People might seem to be happy and disinterested when they grow fat on the spoils of war. In a famine, it's suddenly more efficient to adopt a homin-eat-homin attitude. Stockpiling works only to an extent, and if you're saving your best gear for tomorrow you are putting yourself at a slight disadvantage today.. which is exploitable in battle.

Of course, all this works on the assumption the prize is rewarding enough ... maybe the OP mats could use an even bigger boost to make them *really* desirable, but that's another topic.

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#2 Added by Bitttymacod 1 decade ago [en]

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Mjollren --

If there was a surplus of OP materials, reducing them slightly might be a good idea.

As it is, I have seen no indication of a glut of OP materials. There are no offers in the trade forum for "OP mat to trade for xxx sup mats", or even "q250 rubbarn jeweler's tool for sale, make offer."

Making the mats substantially less common would possibly increase PvP opportunities, but I think the most likely result would be even stronger alliances because the mats would become even more of a reward than they are now.

OP battles haven't been guild v. guild for as long as I have played, and I don't think that's going to change.

In short, this is a horrid idea. I'd be more inclined to support the numbers limitations (and that's a pretty horrible idea, too.)

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
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#3 Added by Mjollren 1 decade ago [en]

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Bitttymacod (atys)

As it is, I have seen no indication of a glut of OP materials. There are no offers in the trade forum for "OP mat to trade for xxx sup mats", or even "q250 rubbarn jeweler's tool for sale, make offer."

The trade forum is dead, I would not take it as indicator of anything really. Use the op registry app and try to trade with op owners directly, that could get you closer to a balanced image.

Bitttymacod (atys)

Making the mats substantially less common would possibly increase PvP opportunities, but I think the most likely result would be even stronger alliances because the mats would become even more of a reward than they are now.

A does not follow from B unless you're making some assumptions not explicitly stated.

If group 1 has a waiting list of 10 guilds for most mats and group 2 has a waiting list of 4 guilds, it would be more advantageous to join group 2 unless that second group has no chance of holding an outpost.

Of course it's difficult to keep changing allegiance, but I believe it's necessary to create the right climate for the powerplayers. Right now, the only rational choice is to join the strongest faction as a newcomer, or to stay inside the faction as a master -- because it would take mass migration to change the balance of power, and no one has incentive to switch.

Bitttymacod (atys)

OP battles haven't been guild v. guild for as long as I have played, and I don't think that's going to change.

Of course, the conditions were never as I propose here, either? Track record doesn't mean much, then...

YMMV, etc :)

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#4 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en]

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I like the novel approach to solving the lack of OP wars however I do not see this working. Reducing OP mats I believe will not stop kami guilds supporting other kami guilds (same for other factions).

I believe there is an alternative route. Recently we saw marauders attack a karavan outpost. Kami were present on both sides of the fighting (although kami were kicked from the marauder side). Some people like to whine and whine about numbers and excessively point out when they are outnumbered during defeat. I would hope to see in the future the very same example kami set when different guilds helped different sides.

If a faction attacks another faction the numbers will most likely be uneven and if the side with fewer numbers has no ground-breaking tactics logic dictates they will most likely loose. The only way for this to change is for a 3rd faction to get involved. I would hope to see deals, bargains, alliances etc. being struck between guilds of different factions as this would create uncertainty of numbers and hopefully generate more OP wars. An added bonus to this is that everyone would have the opportunity to get involved in any OP war, not just the two clashing factions.

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#5 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [de]

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Mjollren (atys)

Bitttymacod (atys)
As it is, I have seen no indication of a glut of OP materials. There are no offers in the trade forum for "OP mat to trade for xxx sup mats", or even "q250 rubbarn jeweler's tool for sale, make offer."
The trade forum is dead, I would not take it as indicator of anything really. Use the op registry app and try to trade with op owners directly, that could get you closer to a balanced image...

I fail to understand that argument. Do you mean that OP owners, guild leaders etc. do not read the trade forum?

Not long ago I posted a WTB to trade forum, asking for OP mat, especially rubbarn 200 and 250, armilo 250, and tekorn up to 200 (expecting to get tekorn 250 was always quite unreasonable, even with much smaller population, so I was not making a fool out of me asking for).

I offered what an independant neutral could offer, namely occupation produce q60 and q70, and digging service of grind materials - exchange rates matter of negotiation.

The reaction was amazing ... exactly zero, null, nothing.

So you really mean that was because "trade forum is dead"? Or is it rather that stuff like OP mat is in no way abundant, rather scarce already, so that it does not go into public trade channels?

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#6 Added by Lacuna 1 decade ago [en]

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[quote=Daomei (atys)][quote=Mjollren (atys)]

Bitttymacod (atys)

Not long ago I pVosted a WTB to trade forum, asking for OP mat, especially rubbarn 200 and 250, armilo 250, and tekorn up to 200 (expecting to get tekorn 250 was always quite unreasonable, even with much smaller population, so I was not making a fool out of me asking for).

I offered what an independant neutral could offer, namely occupation produce q60 and q70, and digging service of grind materials - exchange rates matter of negotiation.

The reaction was amazing ... exactly zero, null, nothing.

So you really mean that was because "trade forum is dead"? Or is it rather that stuff like OP mat is in no way abundant, rather scarce already, so that it does not go into public trade channels?

Or it may be you offered nothing of any value, or I should say, nothing a guild cannot easily supply itself without trading. I would suggest a far more realistic approach would have been contacting a friend in a guild and asking politely if you could have some mats. Being neutral and guildless will be a handicap, but I honestly believe the mats I have been given have as much to do with ties of friendship than being in a kami guild. Or, if you are PR master, targeting highly sought after sups would be an option. These are extremely easy to get at season change or after resets, even days after. The return of KP will likely make it even easier to get them, since sitting at a safe spots and spamming will no longer work.

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#7 Added by Bitttymacod 1 decade ago [en]

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Umm... Lacuna -- I think you have a slight mixup in attributions. That was Daomei who posted the WTB.

Your answer, however, implies that a person is willing to beg their friends for mats, and implies further that they are actually social. Neither of those is true in my case. (I am commenting on this from a position of neutrality. My GL is both social and capable of asking others for valuable gifts, from which I gain benefit. E.g. Armilo boosted focus jewel set.)

I simply submit that if there was actually a "glut" or "surplus" of OP mats, that there would be public trading of them. A few mats to friends does not imply a "surplus" so much as "enough to make giving a few a nice gift." This does imply that they are not critically scarce, but the further implication is that they are not flooding the market.

Mjollren -- I am not interested in acting to "create the right climate for the powerplayers" (whatever that might mean). I just want to keep the possibility open that a social person like my GL might score a piece of armilo or two from time to time. Drastically reducing the number of OP mats means that will never happen.

--B

Last edited by Bitttymacod (1 decade ago)

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#8 Added by Lacuna 1 decade ago [en]

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Bitty I think it is you that is confused, I was replying to Daomei, not you, as is clearly evident by the quoted passage and my response. I think you were confused by me messing up the from the heading of the quote. And neither was I talking about begging, I was alluding to reciprocity.

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#9 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en]

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Thank you very much for your friendly response, Lacuna.

I agree that it is less easy for a guildless neutral to get scarce materials, and it is a handicap I freely and happily accept. Further on, yes, I can get some of that from friends, even from friends in all factions. Only, that is not the point when speaking about trade which means that even an "enemy", unless hindered by strong feelings or self-imposed restrictions, will make the deal if considered favorable.

Granted one can get a lot for sup mats. Yet for me so far, sup mats are mostly more valuable than op mat which I do not need at all but is just a nice to have, as I have all crafting masters except a handful which will be done soon, and always favor a variety of mats over the advantages of op mat.

Yet the point was whether there is abundance of op mat. In the past, there was, but the merge brought grim restrictions. Before, every armilo and rubbarn OP was worth while equally, nowadays, only armilo 250 (limitedly also 200) and rubbarn 250 and 200 are of major worth and interest.

Tekorn 250 was always rare, everybody chose to pile it up for rubbarn series, understandably, below, it was not too rare, the lower levels abundant. And though I see some use for lower level tekorn, especially for PvP, that demand should be largely satisfied already, even with q50 or so tekorn/rubbarn launchers and pistols (I did all my dagger training from 150 to master with 2 sets of tekorn daggers q200 before the fusion, thus such a weapon only used in PvP is hardly wearing off too soon).

Question is, thus, if offer of grind mat q250 and max occupation produce (though, admittedly, the missing of the advanced occupations is devaluating that one largely) are such a worthless offer that they are ignored, or that op mats are worth more than one or more hours of playtime (which would be equivalent to, e.g., 1000 choice mat q250 or a stack of, say, 108 occ produce q70), or a moderate multiple thereof.

If OP mat is worth more than hours of playtime at max level, then it is already scarce. If it were not, my offer might have been of interest for somebody. Hope not to have bored.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#10 Added by Binarabi 1 decade ago [en]

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Mjollren (atys)

Let's consider the current situation: there are excessively many OP mats going around. The average guild has 5-10 active members in a week (again, it's a line in the sand, some have more, some less), and an item lasts certainly more than a week. What if OP mats were enough for just the owning guild, then? Let's say .. 7 q250 rubbarn per month, or 10 q200, 13 q150 and so on.

This suddenly slashes the motives behind the bigger alliance (whichever it is at the moment), because the more you grow the more difficult it is to share fairly or effectively.

Some of us just like fighting - scarce resources would not matter really compared with pleasure of murdering karavan/matis :D

Virg (atys)

I believe there is an alternative route. Recently we saw marauders attack a karavan outpost. Kami were present on both sides of the fighting (although kami were kicked from the marauder side).

Not all kami were kicked - only the 1 ... so 2 kami guilds were accepted by Mauro - made a team of us, not a full team tho - think 2 kami fought side-by-side with karavan *is sick in a bag*

Virg (atys)

I would hope to see deals, bargains, alliances etc. being struck between guilds of different factions as this would create uncertainty of numbers and hopefully generate more OP wars. An added bonus to this is that everyone would have the opportunity to get involved in any OP war, not just the two clashing factions.

Kami have every reason to grab a chance of killing karavan, karavan have every reason to kill kami at any chance, Mauro have every reason to kill both kami and karavan - so yes, we should see more of this sort of involvement

and Mauro did real well considering they only had 2 teams - just a few more kami would have swung balance - then ofc there would be the next declare on the EI op and lots of fighting - and with more balance of the sides - I would hire mauro to fight - having 2 of their teams is better than having 4-6 teams of homins who are not as skilled, mauro have lived by their wits for so long ... they survived the kitin when the rest of us left them behind!

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Binarabi (1 decade ago)

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Binarabi
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#11 Added by Binarabi 1 decade ago [en]

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moved comments

Last edited by Binarabi (1 decade ago) | Reason: surplus - merged posts

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#12 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en]

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Binarabi (atys)

Not all kami were kicked - only the 1 ... so 2 kami guilds were accepted by Mauro - made a team of us, not a full team tho - think 2 kami fought side-by-side with karavan *is sick in a bag*

So the marauders did fight with some kami? Interesting as I was led to believe they kicked all the kami and would never accept any help.

If I am honest the next fight I would like to see karavan and marauders join forces in some way. Both have complained about numbers before and if both can fight alongside kami I don't see why they can't fight along side each other! I hope to see more involvement of all 3 factions in future OP wars :)

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#13 Added by Gorran 1 decade ago [en]

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Binarabi (atys)

Virg (atys)
I believe there is an alternative route. Recently we saw marauders attack a karavan outpost. Kami were present on both sides of the fighting (although kami were kicked from the marauder side).
Not all kami were kicked - only the 1 ... so 2 kami guilds were accepted by Mauro - made a team of us, not a full team tho - think 2 kami fought side-by-side with karavan *is sick in a bag*

Guilds whose primary allegiance is to a nation will always fight against the Marauders meaning some Kami and Karavan guilds would stand side by side against the chaos of the Marauders.

Guilds whose primary allegiance is to a power will always attack the opposing power meaning Kami/Karavan would side with Marauders against the opposing power.

Both groups are equally justified using the justification of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

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Eldest, Order of the White Lotus

#14 Added by Mjollren 1 decade ago [en]

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Binarabi (atys)

Some of us just like fighting - scarce resources would not matter really compared with pleasure of murdering karavan/matis :D

Crossed my mind too. Strict RP would now have an extra reason to happen, but the mild RPer would be pressured by the mechanics to switch. Both results are desirable, imo.

Virg (atys)

I like the novel approach to solving the lack of OP wars however I do not see this working. Reducing OP mats I believe will not stop kami guilds supporting other kami guilds (same for other factions).

The question is how many will stay kami once the good life ends. Pity it takes so much work to switch faction.. but that's another topic.

Of course, if you choose to stay in faction you might as well help it.

Virg (atys)

The only way for this to change is for a 3rd faction to get involved. I would hope to see deals, bargains, alliances etc. being struck between guilds of different factions as this would create uncertainty of numbers and hopefully generate more OP wars.

That's something I hoped to see too, but apparently marauder is where you go if you like strict role. For a while after merger, I remember hearing that alliances were formed ad-hoc at SNs, but I assume it would be a no-no these days.

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#15 Added by Gkr 1 decade ago [en]

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Bitttymacod (atys)

Mjollren --

If there was a surplus of OP materials, reducing them slightly might be a good idea.

As it is, I have seen no indication of a glut of OP materials. There are no offers in the trade forum for "OP mat to trade for xxx sup mats", or even "q250 rubbarn jeweler's tool for sale, make offer."

Making the mats substantially less common would possibly increase PvP opportunities, but I think the most likely result would be even stronger alliances because the mats would become even more of a reward than they are now.

OP battles haven't been guild v. guild for as long as I have played, and I don't think that's going to change.

In short, this is a horrid idea. I'd be more inclined to support the numbers limitations (and that's a pretty horrible idea, too.)

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Hey there... I totally respect you as a player and all that... but... all this coming from you, as a neutral player not engaging in any PvP... welll it's kinda dry...

You have almost no real experience when it comes to OP and PvP (that's my understanding, sorry if I'm assuming wrongly) and I'm only attacking your statements because I have seen this pattern before, ie:

people with no PvP/OP war interest telling what is good and what is bad... but you dont know how it feels when you are 30 vs 80 - once you do PvP, once you get involved I'm sure your perspective will change because you will realize some things the way they are right now, make a lot of other futile.

So if I were you I would keep my statements a bit more general than saying "this is horrible idea" - Why? we are trying to find a way here to make the OP wars more interesting as in, divide the armies - and by that I mean, each fraction have equal opportunity.

So please join the conversation but be realistic about what you can put on the table and what not...

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